Hive room "emptiness"
PsiWarp
Gifted GorgeRichmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
Gifted GorgeRichmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
I've noticed for a while that Alien Commanders tend to stick to Hive 2 rush or plopping evolution structures early, then saving res for Leap, Blink, Bile Bomb, and 2nd set of evolutions. All the while, the Hive is almost completely exposed save for the occasional Gorge fort, but rarely a Whip cluster (except cloaked by Shade).
The lack of chamber options and need to save for tech really makes Hive rooms open spaces with green goo and a big fat target at its core. I recall instances where Marines simply waltz in with little coordination + Beacon and down goes the Hive, in the space of 20 seconds...
I suppose several factors attribute to this trend:
- Whips are scarcely used due to cost and short range.
- Aliens are stuck with whatever chamber the Hive type provides.
- Investing in chamber mature abilities yields little reward due to TRes sinks (Bombard is good though)
- All the chambers are easily snipe-able.
I would be curious to see what yields from these changes in tech tree:
- Crag, Shade, and Shift are available as basic structures (priced accordingly)
- Evolve Shell/Veil/Spur Hive to unlock evolutions still.
- Heal Wave, Ink Cloud, and Hatch require chamber maturity (auto-unlock, not upgraded)
- Babblers, Hallucination, and Echo require specific Hive type.
Now, Alien Commander can easily customize his structure placement and in turn boost Whip effectiveness. Nutrient Mist helps get the better active abilities faster, and the decision of Hive type still affects a chamber type's maximum effectiveness. Rather than simply "claim" territory through infestation, the Khamm can alter the environment at a whim.
The lack of chamber options and need to save for tech really makes Hive rooms open spaces with green goo and a big fat target at its core. I recall instances where Marines simply waltz in with little coordination + Beacon and down goes the Hive, in the space of 20 seconds...
I suppose several factors attribute to this trend:
- Whips are scarcely used due to cost and short range.
- Aliens are stuck with whatever chamber the Hive type provides.
- Investing in chamber mature abilities yields little reward due to TRes sinks (Bombard is good though)
- All the chambers are easily snipe-able.
I would be curious to see what yields from these changes in tech tree:
- Crag, Shade, and Shift are available as basic structures (priced accordingly)
- Evolve Shell/Veil/Spur Hive to unlock evolutions still.
- Heal Wave, Ink Cloud, and Hatch require chamber maturity (auto-unlock, not upgraded)
- Babblers, Hallucination, and Echo require specific Hive type.
Now, Alien Commander can easily customize his structure placement and in turn boost Whip effectiveness. Nutrient Mist helps get the better active abilities faster, and the decision of Hive type still affects a chamber type's maximum effectiveness. Rather than simply "claim" territory through infestation, the Khamm can alter the environment at a whim.
Comments
Your alien tech re-design would open up a plethora of interesting strategies for Kharaa commanders, without breaking the game balance.
Your alien tech re-design would open up a plethora of interesting strategies for Kharaa commanders, without breaking the game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks twilite! Although I'm only touching on the surface, I feel it does bring more fun and excitement to Alien Commanding. In regards to balance: with these changes the <b>Shade</b> is going to be the go-to chamber to drop first, followed by <b>Shift</b> then <b>Crag</b>.
Why in this particular order? Because Marines can't shoot what they can't see, and they often wander into a cloaked Whip farm before the Comm realizes and scans. This forces the Marines to put down an Observatory early on, which is another trend we are seeing in-game but do not want to make a requirement. The Shade's Cloak will probably need a nerf or two, unfortunately, for example:
- Reduced range
- Visible infestation
Cloak range is huge right now to promote Shade Hive, but there's no need if the Shade is buildable from the get-go. Infestation should give Marines a clear territory border, and with new infestation graphics coming "soon", cloaked Cysts should be safe from exposure unless newly grown. Infestation will also appear to spread like in the old video to Marines =D!!
The Shift is second because of Hatch. Since Hatch requires maturity in the idea, the Alien Commander will want to invest in one early on and use Nutrient Mist to speed things up. It also solves the preference for Shift Hive in terms of lack of Eggs, so as to make it a default ability.
The Crag is not as vital but good to have nonetheless. Since Kharaa structures no longer regenerate HP and die without infestation, it'd be a good idea to plunk a few Crags near Harvesters. Heal Wave is also great for protecting the Hive once Weapons 2 & Shotties take the field.
All in all, the low health and armor of the chambers reduce "players vs structures". Maturity and Shades (which in turn help Whips) should help alleviate the low durability problem in one fell swoop. That's the hope anyway.
This is the biggest one for me. Its infuriating as alien comm to watch 100 tres of structures get sniped by a marine on the opposite side of a room.
Main reason I don't build much until mid-late game, is because as you've fixed, there are no structures besides whips early game (and these are very expensive). Hive is worth far far more than 3 whips.
Only thing that makes me go 'gah' about your idea, is that requiring maturity for ink. Ink is pretty useful against scans, and having to wait for maturity for such a weak structure (that will be killed every time someone enters the room) would make it hard to use ink.
Maturity would need to be sped up.
Edit: on the topic of nerfing shade, I think it should not cloak the infestation, just the cysts themselves. Its already fairly obvious to a marine that the room is infested anyway.
Truth be told, having the active abilities usable once the chambers are built shouldn't pose much of a problem. It is the Khamm's decision to spend res on them anyhow, just like Obs scan and bacon.
Edit: I agree on Cloak, especially since the Tech Point will be broken and Hives + Harvesters are in predictable locations.
<b>Editsies</b>: On the other hand, perhaps keeping maturity requirement will give Marines a chance to do damage early game. Invisibility, passive healing & energy regen are powerful defensive traits. Adding early access to detection nullification/vision distortion, super healing & instant eggs seem too much...
Exactly! I think the cost of each structure should reflect the effectiveness of their passive abilities (Heal, Cloak, Energize), but high enough to discourage spam. Their active abilities (Heal Wave, Ink, Hatch) already provide good TRes sinks to minimize over-usage, and Alien Commanders have to divide their investment between structures, abilities, and most importantly: lifeform abilities & evolutions.
With the recent buffs to ARCs, clearing rooms of alien growth should be a snap with some teamwork.
Having seen the latest NS2HD Alien Commanding videos, they really show me how constrained structure availability & viability is for the Kharaa. Shift is essential to prevent Egg-lock, Shade is great but tied to the least popular evolutions, and Crag Heal is mediocre for higher lifeforms and structures (leading to multiple placement at once).
A thought occurred to me from reading in another thread about a Crag Heal suggestion to be % based and non-stackable. What if all static defense passive abilities are non-stackable?
It would promote spacing out your buildings to achieve a larger overall range, but what of close placement? The effects will not stack, so they can act as a backup and/or other sources of active abilities. Plus, the closer they are together, the easier Grenades and ARC splash can destroy them.
Thematically and aesthetically, I think alien growth all over the place is more attractive than all bunched up. However, Whips forests are lovely shrubbery, IMO.
I think this is a better idea.
In my mind the most apt structures to be populating a hive room are hydras and whips. In the current game state, however, that just isn't possible.
In my mind the most apt structures to be populating a hive room are hydras and whips. In the current game state, however, that just isn't possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I too consider Hive type choice a crucial element to good commander play. To dedicate to a strategic approach (healing and defense, deceive and confuse, or speed and outmaneuver) and change the tide of battle is all the more rewarding.
However, the Hive already has strong emphasis placed upon it throughout the game (lifeform abilities, evolution slots, more spawn points, etc), much so that expansion is an absolute requirement to survive. All I'm asking for is further diversity in strategic choice, making Hive 1 viable to some degree, whether on defense or offense. It has been ages since I've heard or even seen Alien Commanders prep potential Hive locations with support structures before dropping the Hive; the choices are just too limited and economically unfeasible.
Hydra and Whip are a great combination, but they are also aimbots. Rather than having to deal with many of those and cause player frustration, I think seeing more of the non-attacking static defenses can be beneficial to both sides.
Thanks for all your consideration guys :)
One of the biggest additions I would suggest is letting Gorges drop chambers and whips.
This would allow dedicated Gorges to work as squad leaders, providing the buildings required for certain strategies without reference to the alien comm. Given that upgrades are separate to chamber drops in the NS2 model it means that Alien tech progression still won't be affected and veteran players can handle some of the tactical decision-making when the comm is still learning the ropes.
This also could be a fairly fun mechanic for players who don't want to fight anymore but would still enjoy hanging around and building. Hours of fun could be had making OC walls in NS1 and with the new Alien comm some really interesting team play over building placement and use could arise.
For example:
- Crag hive: improved healing rate on crags
- Shade hive: blocks obs/scan decloaking structures/players under the effect of a shade.
- Shift hive: Faster egg regeneration or free egg placement from shifts
That would be potentially overpowered. How about allow Shifts to spawn a batch of eggs for free (like SC2 Inject Larvae), but with a global cooldown (across all Shifts)?
Anyway, the possibilities are endless, but it would be nice if the hive at least affected these structures a little more, and thus also had a somewhat bigger strategic impact.