<!--quoteo(post=1985890:date=Oct 1 2012, 06:19 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Oct 1 2012, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really see this changing,
* Aliens require 2 hives to compete with marines early game * no RFK (no early lerks, fades) * Lerks not having projectile spore * No skill based movement system for skulks (good marines smash good skulks)
Basically competitive games are alien teams turtling on 2/3 res trying to desperately hold their hive + base rushing. Very boring tbh..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont agree that alien cannot compete with marine early game. in fact id say that alien is stronger than marine early game. the 2nd hive drop is for early midgame. coms gamble expansion over upgrades because yea you get the 2nd hive drop but youre not getting upgrades in the meantime
We need leap as first hive-upgrade back(maybe lerk-gas too). With a littel restriction. U have to upgrade the hive to shade,shift,crag first. I think that would work fine and its not inbalanced.
Do u remember why they removed leap from first hive( was it beta-build 217 ?)? Performance + Hitreg was extremly broken for marines. Unplayable for marines. Now is the time to put it back into the game.
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I really hope that uwe add so that alien hive can be drop if infestation is in that area. So alien can't quick drop hive to gain 25+ spawn rate in everday.
<!--quoteo(post=1986134:date=Oct 3 2012, 12:22 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Oct 3 2012, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We need leap as first hive-upgrade back(maybe lerk-gas too). With a littel restriction. U have to upgrade the hive to shade,shift,crag first. I think that would work fine and its not inbalanced.
Do u remember why they removed leap from first hive( was it beta-build 217 ?)? Performance + Hitreg was extremly broken for marines. Unplayable for marines. Now is the time to put it back into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
afaik they removed it from first hive coz it was being researched like 30 secs into a game.
Yes and this can be fixed by higher research time. Like 3 or 5 minutes. It makes the hive unavailable for any other upgrades + drifters for this time. And if it cost enough (30 or 40 res) you can't pull a second hive soon to compensate.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
Funnily enough we were talking with Charlie about this issue after the finals of blind's cup. He was listening in on our ts3. Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit. Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable. That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.
<!--quoteo(post=1986138:date=Oct 2 2012, 07:43 AM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 2 2012, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->afaik they removed it from first hive coz it was being researched like 30 secs into a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like _Necro_ said, there are enough options to fix that. A second hive as a requirement is a littel to much :>. I would say an upgraded hive + 60-120 secs leap-researchtime is enough.
<!--quoteo(post=1986141:date=Oct 2 2012, 06:54 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Oct 2 2012, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funnily enough we were talking with Charlie about this issue after the finals of blind's cup. He was listening in on our ts3. Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit. Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable. That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->How would you balance for the fact that Aliens are now being penalised an extra 10 tres on their later "legitimate" hives? And an extra 5 tres on their later "legitimate" leap research?
<!--quoteo(post=1986076:date=Oct 2 2012, 07:30 AM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 2 2012, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->put phase on 2nd cc and duel minigun exo on 3rd cc, ya'know similar to aliens.
Phase and beacon are two ways for marines to instantly travel the map its bull######.
You attack their base they beacon defend it off, killing all the aliens, they rebuild a phase gate (IF it was destroyed) in like 2 secs and then phase, they're back at alien front door again before aliens can even regroup.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually agree with you there buddy, it would be interesting to see phase tech on two CCs.
Is it so wrong to want to put as much emphasis on two marines bases as there is on two alien hives? The reason UWE had that glowing CC/hive that you could see through walls is because they want a clear objective! Well the CC is NEVER the first target for the aliens if they're attacking a base. Maybe if there was more emphasis on holding that CC then aliens would go after it more?
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Leap is mandatory for Aliens to fight against mass Shotguns, GLs, or JP rush.
I don't think the game would be balanced if Leap cannot be researched before GLs and JPs start showing up. Shotgun research time feels too short as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funnily enough we were talking with Charlie about this issue after the finals of blind's cup. He was listening in on our ts3. Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit. Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable. That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds like a terrible idea, all you're doing is taking away the choices of an alien commander rather than increasing them. What this would do basically is just delay the time at which a second hive can be dropped and force all alien commanders to go down the same route of several RTs first.
Make research of some abilities at hive 1 an option, so that hive 2 while being a big plus is no longer an absolute necessity. This would lead to much more diversity in the possible strategies an alien commander can employ to win game and would also make it so that being stuck on 1 hive, or losing a second hive is no longer pretty much GG.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2012
None of those changes would increase the viability of expansion to additional harvesters over a hive drop. I thought about writing a wall of text, I think playing ns2c illustrates it better.
The point is, it's not about making leap less viable. It's about making non leap skulks viable. Make sense?
The problem lies first in the skulk movement, leap is wanted so desperately at the moment to have some sort of compensation for the sluggish and floaty skulk movement, the model size is a factor here to. With no movement system in place where skulks can navigate the map quickly and close distances at a faster pace the chance of defending rts against shotgun pressure is decreased, by a lot.
It simply isn't worth the risk to lose a player to the alien commander to first cyst to an area, have a player gorge to defend it with clogs and hydras and then have it defended so it can at least repay its self.
###### it, just base rush over and over till the hive is built.
<!--quoteo(post=1986155:date=Oct 2 2012, 11:17 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Oct 2 2012, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap is mandatory for Aliens to fight against mass Shotguns, GLs, or JP rush.
I don't think the game would be balanced if Leap cannot be researched before GLs and JPs start showing up. Shotgun research time feels too short as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
shotguns are a lot less useful almost not viable with weapons 0 against skulks, imo. If they were to take swalk's suggestion of making hives harder to put up they would need to nerf marine upgrade times accordingly. Then again that would just slow the game down, so why not just make it easier to place harvesters down instead?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1986178:date=Oct 2 2012, 05:40 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 2 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good luck fixing this when aliens are so underpowered in public play and so overpowered in competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, I didn't know it was opposite day today.
Hive 1: Once matured and path is selected: Can research any T2 alien abilities (Leap and Blink) -Can only hold 2 lifeform types, turning it into a Shift/Skulk/Fade Hive
Hive 2: Holds 2 additional Upgrades once matured and path is evolved - Now get lerk spores and Bilebomb, now its a Crag/Lerk/Gorge Hive
Visual indicators of what abilities are tied to which hive would give each hive its own tactical significance as a target as having blink AND leap on 1 hive would obviously make it the primary target, but smart kahmms would have them on seperate hives to keep their teams from getting gimped after losing one hive.
This could even be limited to having only leap and spores on first hive, limiting blink and BB to second (not a fan of this as it removes possible choices)
The bonus of this system is that the second hive is still very important to win, but not game-ending when it gets taken down. This allows for comebacks, and it wouldnt be too fast since the hive would require maturity as well as a chosen path evolution. Maybe even the chosen path would affect which abilities were available. Crag: defense - gorge and onos (healer and tank); Shift: speed and manuverability - lerk, skulk, fade; Shade: deception - no one really cares about shade (sadly) - Hive Sight on marines within 1 m of cysts
Of course the research times and costs would need to be adjusted to have kahmm's choice of 2 abilities on one hive
The problem is <b>not simply slow personal resources</b>, if it was, marines would have the same problem. The main problem is that there is nothing for aliens to spend pres on until fades. Gorges and lerks are not effective replacements or stopgaps when aliens have to protect their cyst expansion.
The problem has a little to do with the difficulty of holding early harvesters on alien. This, however, is <b>highly map dependent</b>. Docking and mineshaft make early cyst expansion much easier due to the long distances. Veil's "close resource nodes" are extremely hostile to aliens.
The problem is <b>not leap or fade</b>. These are the successful abilities that aliens are going for. If you want to diversify gameplay, look at the tech that people are avoiding.
Why are upgrade chambers avoided until after the 2nd hive? Lerks and gorges are not worth spending pres on over fade. Why not? Because when you fight shotgun marines (who can aim) you are going to die. When you die you are going to respawn as skulk. What is the best tech by far for skulk? Leap. Therefore you need a 2nd hive as fast as possible because you are depending on skulks to hold off until fades. Faster pres isn't going to change this equation, even if it may increase the number of lerks and gorges on the field. You will still respawn as skulk, and leap will still be the most effective use of team resources early game.
<!--quoteo(post=1986244:date=Oct 2 2012, 01:51 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Oct 2 2012, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is <b>not simply slow personal resources</b>, if it was, marines would have the same problem. The main problem is that there is nothing for aliens to spend pres on until fades. Gorges and lerks are not effective replacements or stopgaps when aliens have to protect their cyst expansion.
The problem has a little to do with the difficulty of holding early harvesters on alien. This, however, is <b>highly map dependent</b>. Docking and mineshaft make early cyst expansion much easier due to the long distances. Veil's "close resource nodes" are extremely hostile to aliens.
The problem is <b>not leap or fade</b>. These are the successful abilities that aliens are going for. If you want to diversify gameplay, look at the tech that people are avoiding.
Why are upgrade chambers avoided until after the 2nd hive? Lerks and gorges are not worth spending pres on over fade. Why not? Because when you fight shotgun marines (who can aim) you are going to die. When you die you are going to respawn as skulk. What is the best tech by far for skulk? Leap. Therefore you need a 2nd hive as fast as possible because you are depending on skulks to hold off until fades. Faster pres isn't going to change this equation, even if it may increase the number of lerks and gorges on the field. You will still respawn as skulk, and leap will still be the most effective use of team resources early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
which is what ive been saying forever, the lerk is trash right now. so people sit around as skulks until 2nd hive and even then since they rush 2nd hive, the res doesnt come fast enough to counter a good marine push. but ive given up hoping the devs take logic into account when patching instead of breaking things that are already fine patch after patch. hopefully the mod community picks up the slack
I might be in the minority here, but I adored the long games in NS1. Playing NS2 in its current state feels like a rush-fest, and if something fails... it could cost you the game. There is little margin for error, little chance to recover, and no hope for victory. All or nothing.
While I agree that balancing of the tech tied to the # of hives should be addressed as well as other various points, I feel a lot of this would become moot if one thing was addressed: how horrible the turrets (Frontiersman) and hydras (Kharaa) are. There is simply -no- reliable defense. Some of you may quote "A good defense is a good offense!" but that doesn't apply here at all. All defense is in the hands of the players in the field, and while that does put responsibility with them in some cases, it is a much larger burden to bear and one that is hard to accomplish when half of the tech/morph abilities are either worthless or too expensive. Most games I see wind up being "Who can get exo-suit/fade the fastest". Emphasis is put more on faster FPS gameplay and less on securing a sector and building up bases and defenses.
All I want is defensive structures (hydra/turret) to be useful. It would help slow down the constant need to rush all over the map just to get anything done. It would make both sides a bit more cautious when charging into a base, and even if something goes wrong (your entire team dies except for commander) then your base defenses can hold them off just enough for you to retaliate.
Yes, I'm aware that NS1 did have turret farming and hydra walls that would stand 6 stalks high and 8 stalks wide. I don't want that, but the current gameplay has games lasting (on average) 1 hour, possibly shorter than that when people start mashing F4 because they feel "It's hopeless" and they're correct in thinking that. In NS1, I've seen 0 hive Marine dominated game turn into Aliens recovering all 3 hives and pushing Marines back into a very tiny sector with no hope left, only to reverse everything and push back out and gain most of the ground they had lost. Games like that, to me, are more memorable.
TL;DR - Perhaps NS2 is meant to go in a different direction than I'd like, but I feel the nature of NS2 would be a lot more... <i>fun</i> if things were less about heavy rushing, infantry domination and more about base building, expanding, and frontlines clashing at hot spots. The FPS action is great; the RTS is lacking. No hope of a 'comeback' or any recovery = mash F4 and give up. Buff defensive structures (hydra/turrets), balance tech/morph trees tied to # of hives/CC, and make ALL tech/mutations useful.
And to anyone saying "Don't buff defensive structures", then please remove GLs, Bile bomb, and Siege Turrets as the whole point of those is to destroy structures, most importantly turrets/hydras <i>that serve no purpose except to mildly irritate.</i>
I don't think buffing structures will happen; in one of the Q&A's, the developers said they "Didn't want players to be fighting structures; they want players to be fighting other players." While I agree that fighting players is more fun, weak defensive structures means they're hardly used as it is (the Tres is better spent somewhere else), until very late-game. I don't necessarily think fighting structures is a bad thing per se (TF2 has the ridiculously powerful engie sentries and it's still fun to play, although there is a counter to them which is the spy), but it's a design decision I believe.
It's kind of odd that this is happening to NS2 as well; it reminds me of SupCom 2 vs SupCom 1 where a lot of people raged at the "rush" games in SupCom 2 where the game was effectively over by minute 10, and turtling was never really viable, especially in 1v1s compared to SupCom 1 where games could last hours. I don't mind the "rush" style of the game personally, although you're right - turtling with structures never really works in NS2 as it is right now.
I am all fine with fighting other players. That part is definitely fun and I do not have many complaints with that.
I agree and have noticed as well that the dynamics from 1 to 2 have changed quite a lot. I am not against those changes. I am, however, disappointed in the <b><i>epic</i></b> feel of the battles. If one side reaches their target goal, the other side is simply screwed with very little hope of coming back and winning, hence half of the tech/mutations are damn near pointless.
I guess that's what I want: hope of a comeback, not "rofl steam roll" and watch my team mash F4.
<!--quoteo(post=1986141:date=Oct 2 2012, 08:54 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Oct 2 2012, 08:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funnily enough we were talking with Charlie about this issue after the finals of blind's cup. He was listening in on our ts3. Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit. Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable. That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion this is simply one of the worst suggestions I've heard on this forum. I don't think you're thinking about this the right way.
First, consider WHY aliens are putting down a second hive immediately: leap, blink, and spores. I have the feeling that a lot of comp. teams feel like leap is a MUST for skulks, and indeed it is - without leap fighting higher-tier weapons is not viable unless you're ambushing which makes aliens play exclusively defensively without leap. Also, without blink and especially leap, fighting jetpackers is simply like watching clowns (skulks) running around in a circus, i.e. it's funny, in a sad way. You can't rush marines down the long corridors of veil without leap effectively, especially if they're camping. Without blink, fades can't escape down those same long corridors quickly enough.
On the flipside, you have to consider why the marines are NOT putting down and rushing for a second chair immediately. Why is aliens rushing a second hive perceived as a "problem" when marines not rushing a second chair isn't a problem? Why shouldn't marines be rushing for a second chair the same way aliens are rushing for a second hive? And why on earth are chairs cheaper than a hive, even with an IP or PG attached (30 vs 40 res)? In my opinion, the big problem of the game right now is marines not rushing for a second chair the same way that the aliens are rushing for a second hive, especially on veil - and then not even bothering with a 3rd chair at all (why should they).
At the start of the game, aliens are immediately out 40 res plopped on a 2nd hive and then 25 res on leap, which considerably hinders further expansion and res flow, while marines are derping around making cheap phasegates and locking down the map without feeling the immediate need to secure a second tech point. That's simply ridiculous IMO. If anything, the hives should be cheapened instead of made more expensive.
P.S. Maybe aliens aren't expanding more because without leap they feel like they can't defend their harvesters effectively. Think about that. By forcing alien expansion strategies, you have to consider how they're going to defend that expansion without ranged weapons and ways to cut their distance to phase-gating, camping marines quickly. Force aliens to expand in every game with inferior "tech" to marines, and you have a broken game. Guess who wins.
P.P.S. Yes, Aliens can get leap quickly, by 2-3 minutes into the game. However, that comes at considerable cost, even now - and it means that Aliens can't even BEGIN expanding until after leap is researched, while marines already have 5 extractors built up - or more, in addition to phase gates everywhere and shotguns shortly after. So, Aliens have leap while marines have extractor dominance, map mobility, and shotguns. IMO marines don't have to "stop" leap as much as aliens don't need to "stop" shotgun or armor/weapon research at the beginning of the game. Fast leap is a strategy, which if chosen, has significant drawbacks which are already apparent and even overwhelming in my opinion. If you want to see strategies involving alien expansion, the simplest solution would be to make leap, spores, and blink available with a single hive (and increase their cost or upgrade time accordingly). As long as leap, blink, and spores are linked to a second hive, that second hive will be a HUGE priority for any alien team - even if it cost 100 res to build.
What about if we create a secondary ai offense vs. ai defense game within ns2. We could then buff sentries and whips, but instead of players normally combating them it would be up to the commanders to utilize their ai offensive structures.
1) Give whips an upgradeable ability to tunnel under the ground and strike arcs and sentries only. If arcs roll in whips can attack them at range if they are close enough. Play with the numbers for balance.
2) Give gorges the ability to spread infestation again. This would increase gorge-khamm relation and allow the khamm to grow whips near an enemy base to attack it's defenses with tunneling strike. Whips would have to be able to tunnel through non infested ground to strike sentries. Balance the numbers accordingly. (May have to increase whip growth speed a bit to facilitate alien siege on marine base)
3) Buff whips so that they are better at flinging back grenades unless on fire. Increase armor against marine weapons, but make them more vulnerable to arc damage.
I think this change would increase the rts feel for the commanders. It would also keep the no tower defense promise for the fps players as the commander would be responsible for handling the ai defense and offense.
<!--quoteo(post=1986321:date=Oct 2 2012, 05:06 PM:name=VoodooHex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VoodooHex @ Oct 2 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about if we create a secondary ai offense vs. ai defense game within ns2. We could then buff sentries and whips, but instead of players normally combating them it would be up to the commanders to utilize their ai offensive structures.
1) Give whips an upgradeable ability to tunnel under the ground and strike arcs and sentries only. If arcs roll in whips can attack them at range if they are close enough. Play with the numbers for balance.
2) Give gorges the ability to spread infestation again. This would increase gorge-khamm relation and allow the khamm to grow whips near an enemy base to attack it's defenses with tunneling strike. Whips would have to be able to tunnel through non infested ground to strike sentries. Balance the numbers accordingly. (May have to increase whip growth speed a bit to facilitate alien siege on marine base)
3) Buff whips so that they are better at flinging back grenades unless on fire. Increase armor against marine weapons, but make them more vulnerable to arc damage.
I think this change would increase the rts feel for the commanders. It would also keep the no tower defense promise for the fps players as the commander would be responsible for handling the ai defense and offense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do support improving the RTS aspect for the commander. As of right now, all the commander is good for is just researching upgrades and placing buildings to improve those upgrades which... honestly just makes the commander more of a custodian or butler.
"Here is your weapon upgrade, sir. Have a nice day!"
"Sir, you seem to be dying. Here is a bandage."
"Oh drat! Our base is under attack."
"That armor is simply dreadful on you, sir. Have an upgrade!"
<!--quoteo(post=1986141:date=Oct 3 2012, 01:54 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Oct 3 2012, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funnily enough we were talking with Charlie about this issue after the finals of blind's cup. He was listening in on our ts3. Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit. Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable. That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> AS others have said...Worst idea ever. Lets fix the issue of aliens NEEDING 2nd hive by making it more expensive and slower to expand.
Marines already can expand faster and cheaper than aliens, 2nd hive is often the only option due to lack of ability to push marines back (its fine to say use ambush tactics..but when the other team has mobility over you its not possible)
Your idea to increase cost of both hive and leap and then increase timing shows you dont actually understand the issue as to why aliens get a 2nd hive. They dont do it because its a great way to spend 45 REs..they do it because without spending 45 res on it..they cant get leap, blink, spores etc. Aliens cant expand by res as they cant defend it quick enough (with no leap getting to the marine/s attacking a harvester is nigh on imossible) your statement of removing other options to force them to not upgrade and just expand is heavily marine favoured.
If leap was hitting the field too fast then so are shotguns/phase tech etc, but rather than just increase the cost...I would prefer to see increase in research times. By making leap take 5 min to research you know it cant be in before 5 min mark, same with shotguns and phase tech....cost does not stop fast phase, shotties etc...research time is the biggest factor here. I am surprised by the constant dropping of research times and that UWE has seen the only way to fix it was to tie it to a second hive (sorry guys but thats very short sighted).
Leap was moved to 2nd hive because you used to be able to research it in 30-45 seconds (which shows the research time was the issue) as that was the limiting factor. Now with it being tied to second hive aliens have to rush that first to be able to get leap. What this means is less cysts, RT's etc as aliens cant afford to expand and get some form or upgrade (which the marines are able to get without leaving base)....
I don't think the correct way to fix the "always fast 2nd hive 'problem'" is either of the following:
1) making early game harder via cost increases to strategies you're trying to disincentivize 2) moving leap to first hive
Leaps is far too powerful to be on first hive. That crap was terrible just a few patches ago. Leap would be finishing in the first minute. I've seen the suggestion that leap be given either an exorbitant tres cost (this is dumb and basically a cop out) or an extremely long research timer (another cop out because this would be the only ability with such a long research timer).
I think the correct avenue to fix this is to fix skulks vs marines. Good skulks get crushed too hard by good marines. Aliens go quick hive almost exlusively on veil because it's impossible for aliens to hold any RTs outside of their hive RTs. Why does this happen? Because marines are that much better than skulks.
Some steps to fix this early game imbalance and open up more strats for aliens (example: 2-3 RT before hive, similar to how marines build 3-5 RTs before starting upgrades): 1) a cheaper lerk. Lerk is improving, though I still fear it may be too weak in its current state. Instead of buffing it, I'd rather see the pres cost dropped to 25 in order to get the lerk out in half the time. 2) skulk movement needs love. The new wall jump still yields no speed and is mediocre for in combat maneuvering compared to what we had even in b219. In b219, people still went fast hive but celerity first was more of an option. Yeah, that's how bad current skulk play is.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
I agree with some of what you're saying, GORGEous, but I don't think there's a way to entirely balance skulk vs marine combat; since the shotgun costs 20 res, it needs to confer a significant advantage. Shotguns are usually researched 4+ minutes before aliens get fades, sometimes befroe aliens get leap, even with instadrop hive. Unless Fades get blink on hive1, and the instant hive drop is delayed in some way (one way is just to increase the cost, another is to increase build time) to give marines an actual chance at killing it before it goes up, instadrop hive is going to remain the only viable alien strategy.
Comments
* Aliens require 2 hives to compete with marines early game
* no RFK (no early lerks, fades)
* Lerks not having projectile spore
* No skill based movement system for skulks (good marines smash good skulks)
Basically competitive games are alien teams turtling on 2/3 res trying to desperately hold their hive + base rushing. Very boring tbh..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont agree that alien cannot compete with marine early game. in fact id say that alien is stronger than marine early game. the 2nd hive drop is for early midgame. coms gamble expansion over upgrades because yea you get the 2nd hive drop but youre not getting upgrades in the meantime
Do u remember why they removed leap from first hive( was it beta-build 217 ?)? Performance + Hitreg was extremly broken for marines. Unplayable for marines. Now is the time to put it back into the game.
Do u remember why they removed leap from first hive( was it beta-build 217 ?)? Performance + Hitreg was extremly broken for marines. Unplayable for marines. Now is the time to put it back into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
afaik they removed it from first hive coz it was being researched like 30 secs into a game.
Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit.
Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable.
That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.
Like _Necro_ said, there are enough options to fix that. A second hive as a requirement is a littel to much :>. I would say an upgraded hive + 60-120 secs leap-researchtime is enough.
Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit.
Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable.
That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->How would you balance for the fact that Aliens are now being penalised an extra 10 tres on their later "legitimate" hives? And an extra 5 tres on their later "legitimate" leap research?
Phase and beacon are two ways for marines to instantly travel the map its bull######.
You attack their base they beacon defend it off, killing all the aliens, they rebuild a phase gate (IF it was destroyed) in like 2 secs and then phase, they're back at alien front door again before aliens can even regroup.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually agree with you there buddy, it would be interesting to see phase tech on two CCs.
Is it so wrong to want to put as much emphasis on two marines bases as there is on two alien hives? The reason UWE had that glowing CC/hive that you could see through walls is because they want a clear objective! Well the CC is NEVER the first target for the aliens if they're attacking a base. Maybe if there was more emphasis on holding that CC then aliens would go after it more?
I don't think the game would be balanced if Leap cannot be researched before GLs and JPs start showing up. Shotgun research time feels too short as well.
Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit.
Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable.
That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds like a terrible idea, all you're doing is taking away the choices of an alien commander rather than increasing them. What this would do basically is just delay the time at which a second hive can be dropped and force all alien commanders to go down the same route of several RTs first.
Make research of some abilities at hive 1 an option, so that hive 2 while being a big plus is no longer an absolute necessity. This would lead to much more diversity in the possible strategies an alien commander can employ to win game and would also make it so that being stuck on 1 hive, or losing a second hive is no longer pretty much GG.
The point is, it's not about making leap less viable. It's about making non leap skulks viable. Make sense?
The problem lies first in the skulk movement, leap is wanted so desperately at the moment to have some sort of compensation for the sluggish and floaty skulk movement, the model size is a factor here to. With no movement system in place where skulks can navigate the map quickly and close distances at a faster pace the chance of defending rts against shotgun pressure is decreased, by a lot.
It simply isn't worth the risk to lose a player to the alien commander to first cyst to an area, have a player gorge to defend it with clogs and hydras and then have it defended so it can at least repay its self.
###### it, just base rush over and over till the hive is built.
I don't think the game would be balanced if Leap cannot be researched before GLs and JPs start showing up. Shotgun research time feels too short as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
shotguns are a lot less useful almost not viable with weapons 0 against skulks, imo. If they were to take swalk's suggestion of making hives harder to put up they would need to nerf marine upgrade times accordingly. Then again that would just slow the game down, so why not just make it easier to place harvesters down instead?
Oh, I didn't know it was opposite day today.
That is:
Hive 1: Once matured and path is selected: Can research any T2 alien abilities (Leap and Blink)
-Can only hold 2 lifeform types, turning it into a Shift/Skulk/Fade Hive
Hive 2: Holds 2 additional Upgrades once matured and path is evolved
- Now get lerk spores and Bilebomb, now its a Crag/Lerk/Gorge Hive
Visual indicators of what abilities are tied to which hive would give each hive its own tactical significance as a target as having blink AND leap on 1 hive would obviously make it the primary target, but smart kahmms would have them on seperate hives to keep their teams from getting gimped after losing one hive.
This could even be limited to having only leap and spores on first hive, limiting blink and BB to second (not a fan of this as it removes possible choices)
The bonus of this system is that the second hive is still very important to win, but not game-ending when it gets taken down. This allows for comebacks, and it wouldnt be too fast since the hive would require maturity as well as a chosen path evolution. Maybe even the chosen path would affect which abilities were available. Crag: defense - gorge and onos (healer and tank); Shift: speed and manuverability - lerk, skulk, fade; Shade: deception - no one really cares about shade (sadly) - Hive Sight on marines within 1 m of cysts
Of course the research times and costs would need to be adjusted to have kahmm's choice of 2 abilities on one hive
P.S. I think Onos needs a 2nd hive ability
The problem has a little to do with the difficulty of holding early harvesters on alien. This, however, is <b>highly map dependent</b>. Docking and mineshaft make early cyst expansion much easier due to the long distances. Veil's "close resource nodes" are extremely hostile to aliens.
The problem is <b>not leap or fade</b>. These are the successful abilities that aliens are going for. If you want to diversify gameplay, look at the tech that people are avoiding.
Why are upgrade chambers avoided until after the 2nd hive? Lerks and gorges are not worth spending pres on over fade. Why not? Because when you fight shotgun marines (who can aim) you are going to die. When you die you are going to respawn as skulk. What is the best tech by far for skulk? Leap. Therefore you need a 2nd hive as fast as possible because you are depending on skulks to hold off until fades. Faster pres isn't going to change this equation, even if it may increase the number of lerks and gorges on the field. You will still respawn as skulk, and leap will still be the most effective use of team resources early game.
The problem has a little to do with the difficulty of holding early harvesters on alien. This, however, is <b>highly map dependent</b>. Docking and mineshaft make early cyst expansion much easier due to the long distances. Veil's "close resource nodes" are extremely hostile to aliens.
The problem is <b>not leap or fade</b>. These are the successful abilities that aliens are going for. If you want to diversify gameplay, look at the tech that people are avoiding.
Why are upgrade chambers avoided until after the 2nd hive? Lerks and gorges are not worth spending pres on over fade. Why not? Because when you fight shotgun marines (who can aim) you are going to die. When you die you are going to respawn as skulk. What is the best tech by far for skulk? Leap. Therefore you need a 2nd hive as fast as possible because you are depending on skulks to hold off until fades. Faster pres isn't going to change this equation, even if it may increase the number of lerks and gorges on the field. You will still respawn as skulk, and leap will still be the most effective use of team resources early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
which is what ive been saying forever, the lerk is trash right now. so people sit around as skulks until 2nd hive and even then since they rush 2nd hive, the res doesnt come fast enough to counter a good marine push. but ive given up hoping the devs take logic into account when patching instead of breaking things that are already fine patch after patch. hopefully the mod community picks up the slack
While I agree that balancing of the tech tied to the # of hives should be addressed as well as other various points, I feel a lot of this would become moot if one thing was addressed: how horrible the turrets (Frontiersman) and hydras (Kharaa) are. There is simply -no- reliable defense. Some of you may quote "A good defense is a good offense!" but that doesn't apply here at all. All defense is in the hands of the players in the field, and while that does put responsibility with them in some cases, it is a much larger burden to bear and one that is hard to accomplish when half of the tech/morph abilities are either worthless or too expensive. Most games I see wind up being "Who can get exo-suit/fade the fastest". Emphasis is put more on faster FPS gameplay and less on securing a sector and building up bases and defenses.
All I want is defensive structures (hydra/turret) to be useful. It would help slow down the constant need to rush all over the map just to get anything done. It would make both sides a bit more cautious when charging into a base, and even if something goes wrong (your entire team dies except for commander) then your base defenses can hold them off just enough for you to retaliate.
Yes, I'm aware that NS1 did have turret farming and hydra walls that would stand 6 stalks high and 8 stalks wide. I don't want that, but the current gameplay has games lasting (on average) 1 hour, possibly shorter than that when people start mashing F4 because they feel "It's hopeless" and they're correct in thinking that. In NS1, I've seen 0 hive Marine dominated game turn into Aliens recovering all 3 hives and pushing Marines back into a very tiny sector with no hope left, only to reverse everything and push back out and gain most of the ground they had lost. Games like that, to me, are more memorable.
TL;DR - Perhaps NS2 is meant to go in a different direction than I'd like, but I feel the nature of NS2 would be a lot more... <i>fun</i> if things were less about heavy rushing, infantry domination and more about base building, expanding, and frontlines clashing at hot spots. The FPS action is great; the RTS is lacking. No hope of a 'comeback' or any recovery = mash F4 and give up. Buff defensive structures (hydra/turrets), balance tech/morph trees tied to # of hives/CC, and make ALL tech/mutations useful.
And to anyone saying "Don't buff defensive structures", then please remove GLs, Bile bomb, and Siege Turrets as the whole point of those is to destroy structures, most importantly turrets/hydras <i>that serve no purpose except to mildly irritate.</i>
It's kind of odd that this is happening to NS2 as well; it reminds me of SupCom 2 vs SupCom 1 where a lot of people raged at the "rush" games in SupCom 2 where the game was effectively over by minute 10, and turtling was never really viable, especially in 1v1s compared to SupCom 1 where games could last hours. I don't mind the "rush" style of the game personally, although you're right - turtling with structures never really works in NS2 as it is right now.
I agree and have noticed as well that the dynamics from 1 to 2 have changed quite a lot. I am not against those changes. I am, however, disappointed in the <b><i>epic</i></b> feel of the battles. If one side reaches their target goal, the other side is simply screwed with very little hope of coming back and winning, hence half of the tech/mutations are damn near pointless.
I guess that's what I want: hope of a comeback, not "rofl steam roll" and watch my team mash F4.
Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit.
Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable.
That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion this is simply one of the worst suggestions I've heard on this forum. I don't think you're thinking about this the right way.
First, consider WHY aliens are putting down a second hive immediately: leap, blink, and spores. I have the feeling that a lot of comp. teams feel like leap is a MUST for skulks, and indeed it is - without leap fighting higher-tier weapons is not viable unless you're ambushing which makes aliens play exclusively defensively without leap. Also, without blink and especially leap, fighting jetpackers is simply like watching clowns (skulks) running around in a circus, i.e. it's funny, in a sad way. You can't rush marines down the long corridors of veil without leap effectively, especially if they're camping. Without blink, fades can't escape down those same long corridors quickly enough.
On the flipside, you have to consider why the marines are NOT putting down and rushing for a second chair immediately. Why is aliens rushing a second hive perceived as a "problem" when marines not rushing a second chair isn't a problem? Why shouldn't marines be rushing for a second chair the same way aliens are rushing for a second hive? And why on earth are chairs cheaper than a hive, even with an IP or PG attached (30 vs 40 res)? In my opinion, the big problem of the game right now is marines not rushing for a second chair the same way that the aliens are rushing for a second hive, especially on veil - and then not even bothering with a 3rd chair at all (why should they).
At the start of the game, aliens are immediately out 40 res plopped on a 2nd hive and then 25 res on leap, which considerably hinders further expansion and res flow, while marines are derping around making cheap phasegates and locking down the map without feeling the immediate need to secure a second tech point. That's simply ridiculous IMO. If anything, the hives should be cheapened instead of made more expensive.
P.S. Maybe aliens aren't expanding more because without leap they feel like they can't defend their harvesters effectively. Think about that. By forcing alien expansion strategies, you have to consider how they're going to defend that expansion without ranged weapons and ways to cut their distance to phase-gating, camping marines quickly. Force aliens to expand in every game with inferior "tech" to marines, and you have a broken game. Guess who wins.
P.P.S. Yes, Aliens can get leap quickly, by 2-3 minutes into the game. However, that comes at considerable cost, even now - and it means that Aliens can't even BEGIN expanding until after leap is researched, while marines already have 5 extractors built up - or more, in addition to phase gates everywhere and shotguns shortly after. So, Aliens have leap while marines have extractor dominance, map mobility, and shotguns. IMO marines don't have to "stop" leap as much as aliens don't need to "stop" shotgun or armor/weapon research at the beginning of the game. Fast leap is a strategy, which if chosen, has significant drawbacks which are already apparent and even overwhelming in my opinion. If you want to see strategies involving alien expansion, the simplest solution would be to make leap, spores, and blink available with a single hive (and increase their cost or upgrade time accordingly). As long as leap, blink, and spores are linked to a second hive, that second hive will be a HUGE priority for any alien team - even if it cost 100 res to build.
1) Give whips an upgradeable ability to tunnel under the ground and strike arcs and sentries only. If arcs roll in whips can attack them at range if they are close enough. Play with the numbers for balance.
2) Give gorges the ability to spread infestation again. This would increase gorge-khamm relation and allow the khamm to grow whips near an enemy base to attack it's defenses with tunneling strike. Whips would have to be able to tunnel through non infested ground to strike sentries. Balance the numbers accordingly. (May have to increase whip growth speed a bit to facilitate alien siege on marine base)
3) Buff whips so that they are better at flinging back grenades unless on fire. Increase armor against marine weapons, but make them more vulnerable to arc damage.
I think this change would increase the rts feel for the commanders. It would also keep the no tower defense promise for the fps players as the commander would be responsible for handling the ai defense and offense.
1) Give whips an upgradeable ability to tunnel under the ground and strike arcs and sentries only. If arcs roll in whips can attack them at range if they are close enough. Play with the numbers for balance.
2) Give gorges the ability to spread infestation again. This would increase gorge-khamm relation and allow the khamm to grow whips near an enemy base to attack it's defenses with tunneling strike. Whips would have to be able to tunnel through non infested ground to strike sentries. Balance the numbers accordingly. (May have to increase whip growth speed a bit to facilitate alien siege on marine base)
3) Buff whips so that they are better at flinging back grenades unless on fire. Increase armor against marine weapons, but make them more vulnerable to arc damage.
I think this change would increase the rts feel for the commanders. It would also keep the no tower defense promise for the fps players as the commander would be responsible for handling the ai defense and offense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do support improving the RTS aspect for the commander. As of right now, all the commander is good for is just researching upgrades and placing buildings to improve those upgrades which... honestly just makes the commander more of a custodian or butler.
"Here is your weapon upgrade, sir. Have a nice day!"
"Sir, you seem to be dying. Here is a bandage."
"Oh drat! Our base is under attack."
"That armor is simply dreadful on you, sir. Have an upgrade!"
Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit.
Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable.
That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AS others have said...Worst idea ever.
Lets fix the issue of aliens NEEDING 2nd hive by making it more expensive and slower to expand.
Marines already can expand faster and cheaper than aliens, 2nd hive is often the only option due to lack of ability to push marines back (its fine to say use ambush tactics..but when the other team has mobility over you its not possible)
Your idea to increase cost of both hive and leap and then increase timing shows you dont actually understand the issue as to why aliens get a 2nd hive.
They dont do it because its a great way to spend 45 REs..they do it because without spending 45 res on it..they cant get leap, blink, spores etc.
Aliens cant expand by res as they cant defend it quick enough (with no leap getting to the marine/s attacking a harvester is nigh on imossible) your statement of removing other options to force them to not upgrade and just expand is heavily marine favoured.
If leap was hitting the field too fast then so are shotguns/phase tech etc, but rather than just increase the cost...I would prefer to see increase in research times.
By making leap take 5 min to research you know it cant be in before 5 min mark, same with shotguns and phase tech....cost does not stop fast phase, shotties etc...research time is the biggest factor here.
I am surprised by the constant dropping of research times and that UWE has seen the only way to fix it was to tie it to a second hive (sorry guys but thats very short sighted).
Leap was moved to 2nd hive because you used to be able to research it in 30-45 seconds (which shows the research time was the issue) as that was the limiting factor. Now with it being tied to second hive aliens have to rush that first to be able to get leap.
What this means is less cysts, RT's etc as aliens cant afford to expand and get some form or upgrade (which the marines are able to get without leaving base)....
1) making early game harder via cost increases to strategies you're trying to disincentivize
2) moving leap to first hive
Leaps is far too powerful to be on first hive. That crap was terrible just a few patches ago. Leap would be finishing in the first minute. I've seen the suggestion that leap be given either an exorbitant tres cost (this is dumb and basically a cop out) or an extremely long research timer (another cop out because this would be the only ability with such a long research timer).
I think the correct avenue to fix this is to fix skulks vs marines. Good skulks get crushed too hard by good marines. Aliens go quick hive almost exlusively on veil because it's impossible for aliens to hold any RTs outside of their hive RTs. Why does this happen? Because marines are that much better than skulks.
Some steps to fix this early game imbalance and open up more strats for aliens (example: 2-3 RT before hive, similar to how marines build 3-5 RTs before starting upgrades):
1) a cheaper lerk. Lerk is improving, though I still fear it may be too weak in its current state. Instead of buffing it, I'd rather see the pres cost dropped to 25 in order to get the lerk out in half the time.
2) skulk movement needs love. The new wall jump still yields no speed and is mediocre for in combat maneuvering compared to what we had even in b219. In b219, people still went fast hive but celerity first was more of an option. Yeah, that's how bad current skulk play is.