Canceling the beacon wont solve the whole problem, but it would certainly improve things. Current main problem with a coordinated <b>early</b> baserush is, that u will spend 10 tres, no matter what. If u see 6 (or 5) red dots incoming u have to beacon asap, because once the skulks are near the obs, its allready too late. Here is what bothers me ... if the com pays close attention, he beacons early. An early beacon will just cause the aliens to retreat and kill RTs. There is currently no way to ensure, that the aliens will be inside the base when the beacon completes.
If u could cancel the beacon, u can certainly solve this issue. Aliens have to decide, if they still want to engage or retreat. If they retreat, beacon will be canceled ... if they dont, beacon gets through and the massacre starts. There will be still some issue with the fast wavespawn of the aliens but at the moment, its even worse when the aliens just fake a baserush, force a beacon and kill all marine RTs. They wont go for the natural expansion RT obviously but all the other RTs will be destroyed for sure as long as at least two skulks attack the RT together. This results in a huge blow to the marine economy. Unnecessary beacon 10tres + one or two RTs that didnt even pay off. On top of that u can add the time the marines need to move out again and regain certain map presence.
Canceling the beacon either forces the aliens to attack and eventually die after beacon or aliens retreat and marines continue gaining mapcontrol or close in on the next most likely target of the aliens.
I want to point out, that this is a "soft" balancing method. Reducing the time of beacon or buff any hp of structures or powernodes or increase the obsrange will have a bigger impact on balancing. As soon as the wavespawn is changed, canceling beacon should suffice to guarantee a certain downside of a failed baserush. U only have to ensure, that aliens really attack the base ... what the ability to cancel the beacon kinda does.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1986212:date=Oct 2 2012, 07:31 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 2 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Faking out beacons is a legitimate strategy. It's an annoying one for Marines, but the ability for Marines to instantly appear to defend their base from anywhere on the map or in death is annoying for aliens. If they've got enough people near your base to force a beacon, they've left the rest of the map open, so either call some of your people back to base without beaconing, or pay the price for not having anyone near your base to defend it.
You can't send every unit you own far enough away that they can't protect you, then complain about how much it costs to stop the enemy from steamrolling your base. This applies whether or not the enemy is actually planning to murder your base; if you beaconed, it seemed to you like you were about to get swarmed. In any other RTS, you wouldn't have a magic teleport button to save yourself from your own overextension.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> WC3 Townportal WTF?
<!--quoteo(post=1986212:date=Oct 2 2012, 08:31 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 2 2012, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't send every unit you own far enough away that they can't protect you, then complain about how much it costs to stop the enemy from steamrolling your base. This applies whether or not the enemy is actually planning to murder your base; if you beaconed, it seemed to you like you were about to get swarmed. In any other RTS, you wouldn't have a magic teleport button to save yourself from your own overextension.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> SC2 Mass recall RA2 Chronosphere
I highly doubt it is that uncommon, besides only low level players would not make use it current units by being aggressive.
RA2 Chronosphere was not an emergency "save me" button, it was a tiny teleportation circle with a superweapon length charge time, designed for inserting strike groups behind enemy defenses. Nobody ever held their Chronosphere active just in case someone attacked their base, they left a few units at home and Chrono'd their units in to attack their enemy's base.
In NS1 your beacon also spawned all dead Marines, making it extremely powerful against an all-in base rush. And cancelling it refunded a portion of the price based on how far into the cast time you went.
However, even after cancelling it the sound continued, so if the aliens commit they don't know if the Beacon was cancelled or not until Marines show up or not.
I see all this arguing, but we already fixed this problem in NS1...
Res For Kill... defending a base rush gives the marines res, which causes them to tech faster if the aliens try to rush too often. Problem solved. aliens get punished for bad base rush, by boosting marine economy.
What about my suggestion to implement 4-5 different buttons on the observatory to replace the single "distress beacon" button which beacon 1, 3, 5, or entire team marines for progressive cost, instead of being able to cancel a beacon...? That way if there's a base rush (even if fake) the com can choose to only beacon 5 marines instead of the entire team.
<!--quoteo(post=1986721:date=Oct 3 2012, 02:59 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 3 2012, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about my suggestion to implement 4-5 different buttons on the observatory to replace the single "distress beacon" button which beacon 1, 3, 5, or entire team marines for progressive cost, instead of being able to cancel a beacon...? That way if there's a base rush (even if fake) the com can choose to only beacon 5 marines instead of the entire team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 marines is the whole team...
I think this illustrates the already growing rift between comp and pub play.
OK I thought about this some more this afternoon, and I think that maybe the problem doesn't necessarily stem from the game as a whole, as much as the fact that competitive games are being played with low player numbers (6v6, 1 com on each side 5v5 players) if that's really the case...
I really believe the game is more "balanced/playable/enjoyable/non-broken/whateveryou'dlike" with at least 9v9 (8v8 playing, 1 com on each side). With more players, there is altogether more "vision" of the map (earlier to detect "rushes" and respond accordingly), and there's a lot more people "free" to build on the marine side and to harass RTs or hives.
I didn't watch this weekend, and I can't remember last weekend, but has there been a tournament where the teams were 9v9 or even more (10-12 per side)?
I'm not sure why competitive games are being played in such low numbers (maybe to show individual skill more and reduce spammable chokepoints?); in pubs when I've played in such low numbers, the game plays a LOT differently from when it's 9v9 or more. For one thing, structures actually become a lot more meaningful, and everything in general becomes more "hardcore" because mistakes "hurt" a lot more due to the map being less populated in general and structures less timely defendable.
P.S. Consider the extreme case for illustrative purposes: 1v1 or 2v2. Who do you think is going to win? My money's on the alien ;-) . I think it's simply the case because the fewer the number of marines, the more overpowered the autonomous alien expansion becomes. The marine commander would have to issue build orders for his solo marine (or both of them) and then they'd have to run and make those structures. Meanwhile the 1 or 2 skulks can spam harvesters, attack, drop a hive, attack, spam more harvesters and upgrades, attack, etc. etc.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
There has not been any tournament with any more than 6v6, please don't bring that discussion into this thread. It is available here - <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121039" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121039</a>
This is the competitive forum, please leave your Pub analogies at the door :)
I think the cancel beacon option ala NS1 is the way to go, with partial res refunded if cancelled early enough.
I'm not sure about the beacon sound being carried on though...
Comments
Current main problem with a coordinated <b>early</b> baserush is, that u will spend 10 tres, no matter what. If u see 6 (or 5) red dots incoming u have to beacon asap, because once the skulks are near the obs, its allready too late. Here is what bothers me ... if the com pays close attention, he beacons early. An early beacon will just cause the aliens to retreat and kill RTs. There is currently no way to ensure, that the aliens will be inside the base when the beacon completes.
If u could cancel the beacon, u can certainly solve this issue. Aliens have to decide, if they still want to engage or retreat. If they retreat, beacon will be canceled ... if they dont, beacon gets through and the massacre starts. There will be still some issue with the fast wavespawn of the aliens but at the moment, its even worse when the aliens just fake a baserush, force a beacon and kill all marine RTs. They wont go for the natural expansion RT obviously but all the other RTs will be destroyed for sure as long as at least two skulks attack the RT together.
This results in a huge blow to the marine economy. Unnecessary beacon 10tres + one or two RTs that didnt even pay off. On top of that u can add the time the marines need to move out again and regain certain map presence.
Canceling the beacon either forces the aliens to attack and eventually die after beacon or aliens retreat and marines continue gaining mapcontrol or close in on the next most likely target of the aliens.
I want to point out, that this is a "soft" balancing method. Reducing the time of beacon or buff any hp of structures or powernodes or increase the obsrange will have a bigger impact on balancing. As soon as the wavespawn is changed, canceling beacon should suffice to guarantee a certain downside of a failed baserush. U only have to ensure, that aliens really attack the base ... what the ability to cancel the beacon kinda does.
You can't send every unit you own far enough away that they can't protect you, then complain about how much it costs to stop the enemy from steamrolling your base. This applies whether or not the enemy is actually planning to murder your base; if you beaconed, it seemed to you like you were about to get swarmed. In any other RTS, you wouldn't have a magic teleport button to save yourself from your own overextension.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WC3 Townportal WTF?
SC2 Mass recall
RA2 Chronosphere
I highly doubt it is that uncommon, besides only low level players would not make use it current units by being aggressive.
edit: oh i should read more than the last post :P
However, even after cancelling it the sound continued, so if the aliens commit they don't know if the Beacon was cancelled or not until Marines show up or not.
Res For Kill... defending a base rush gives the marines res, which causes them to tech faster if the aliens try to rush too often. Problem solved. aliens get punished for bad base rush, by boosting marine economy.
/thread
5 marines is the whole team...
I think this illustrates the already growing rift between comp and pub play.
I really believe the game is more "balanced/playable/enjoyable/non-broken/whateveryou'dlike" with at least 9v9 (8v8 playing, 1 com on each side). With more players, there is altogether more "vision" of the map (earlier to detect "rushes" and respond accordingly), and there's a lot more people "free" to build on the marine side and to harass RTs or hives.
I didn't watch this weekend, and I can't remember last weekend, but has there been a tournament where the teams were 9v9 or even more (10-12 per side)?
I'm not sure why competitive games are being played in such low numbers (maybe to show individual skill more and reduce spammable chokepoints?); in pubs when I've played in such low numbers, the game plays a LOT differently from when it's 9v9 or more. For one thing, structures actually become a lot more meaningful, and everything in general becomes more "hardcore" because mistakes "hurt" a lot more due to the map being less populated in general and structures less timely defendable.
P.S. Consider the extreme case for illustrative purposes: 1v1 or 2v2. Who do you think is going to win? My money's on the alien ;-) . I think it's simply the case because the fewer the number of marines, the more overpowered the autonomous alien expansion becomes. The marine commander would have to issue build orders for his solo marine (or both of them) and then they'd have to run and make those structures. Meanwhile the 1 or 2 skulks can spam harvesters, attack, drop a hive, attack, spam more harvesters and upgrades, attack, etc. etc.
This is the competitive forum, please leave your Pub analogies at the door :)
I think the cancel beacon option ala NS1 is the way to go, with partial res refunded if cancelled early enough.
I'm not sure about the beacon sound being carried on though...