I like how it was changed overall. Having a larger pool definitely makes Alien skills require more planning, less spamming the better. Especially for Fades I think it's an essential change, although I still feel like their mobility is a bit extreme.
<!--quoteo(post=1983373:date=Sep 26 2012, 02:44 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Sep 26 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hint: Baddies tend to die a lot. Take that as you like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not a matter of being bad as a jetpacker, the speed difference between a fade and jetpacker can't be argued. Jetpacks are SLOW, and that's a fact. No wait, nevermind. Just call me bad instead of making a real argument.
I think the new adrenaline should be like 250% or 300%. It synergizes well with shifts now but if you're running out of energy because you get back to the shift you're kinda screwed anyway.
as a fade I find myself running out of health faster than I run out of energy if I stay long enough in the fight to actually get some use out of adrenaline. Maybe if with adrenaline your energy regenerated faster when out of combat? Or that being near a hive lets you recharge faster?
I don't want unlimited energy, but if you're going to have twice as much energy and you use it, it takes you twice as long to get back in the game.. also if you have to leave to get to a shift just to get energy back fast enough, by the time you get back into the fray you are already out of most of your energy just traveling there. If the shift is close enough that you dont need to travel that far.. guess what? the marines are going to chase you there and probably finish you off find your structures and destroy them too. I like the bigger energy pool, but maybe make a compromise like 150% and and 25% + adr regen instead of the 50% that it was. I like compromise
<!--quoteo(post=1983080:date=Sep 25 2012, 07:07 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 25 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Haven't bothered using it because cele is just so good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 the only thing I have used adren on is gorge, even then cele might be better in some part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1983307:date=Sep 26 2012, 12:55 PM:name=Beelzebub)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Beelzebub @ Sep 26 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So.. whats the point of even using adrenaline if you need shifts everywhere to make it worthwhile?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You get an energy pool of 200%? Not everyone has ocd and is unable to take action unless they have 100% of everything. With adren being on 50% energy is the same an a non adren player being on 100%.
<!--quoteo(post=1983373:date=Sep 26 2012, 03:44 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Sep 26 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stopped here. Why? Because egg spawning is nothing like nor even anywhere close to having the same amazing benefits that phase gates brings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shifts bring aliens to the fight faster. Phase Gates bring aliens to the fight faster. This is the only parallel I have drawn. No one is talking about being able to move between areas quickly, or using shifts as a means of rapid home-defense, or any other prominent feature of phasing.
I do not "LIKE" new adrenaline, but I also do not hate it. If you do not agree with the extend combat viability approach, I cannot change that. Shifts have their place, and so does new adrenaline.
Perhaps, instead of a flat recharge rate, it had a Regen like quality. It seems most of the complaints are the amount of time you are taken out of combat, but the old way had way too much energy spam. This way you would have a bit more energy to stay in combat, but it is not an infinite stream. When you drop out though, you wait a while and have slightly faster regen, to cut down the time outside of combat a bit. It wouldn't get rid of the fact that you have to drop out and regen, and it would still take longer than without adrenaline to go from 0-100%, but you wouldn't be able to spam continuously in combat. Thoughts?
I do like that idea of adrenaline regen faster out of battle, much like regular regen. I think that would help, again like i said its not that i want unlimited adrenaline its how long it takes to bring it back up to a useful amount for coming back into combat
I do like the thought of this requiring Khamms to be a bit more involved, building shifts and such. Some of the greatest games I have played have included forward bases by the commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1983467:date=Sep 26 2012, 07:59 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Sep 26 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once more khamms start using shifts in addition to crags at hives, people will stop complaining about adren change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem is even with shifts everywhere against good players you will run out of health faster than you run out of energy. Even if marines were weapon 0 and only had rifles celerity would still be better as you can get pretty insane momentum since with blink you keep your speed, so you can hop around at much faster speeds. That's only for fades though, adrenaline may still be great for gorges and lerks.
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1983265:date=Sep 26 2012, 03:08 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Sep 26 2012, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love the change and what it brings to NS2. I really missed the alien 'outposts' you used to see in NS1. Now, sometimes there was maybe a crag with a few hydra's here and there. Bringing back the importance of structures like the shift creates incentive to build 'recharge stations', which need to be defended.
Those 'stations' must have at least a shift, but I'd say also a few crags and definitely hydra's to keep it a bit safe. Lonely shifts are easy to take out, after all.
A definite improvement. Perhaps the numbers need to be tweaked a bit, but I like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's necessary to rechange adrenalin ability to something utterly useless to make it happend. Now aliens are being Depended on outposts around the map. Which is fine by me but this was always an important tatics in previous build. Only problem was the balance. The adrenalin recharge rate was to overpowered. I really wish that uwe would patiently balance it probably then rechange adrenalin game mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1983510:date=Sep 27 2012, 01:11 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 27 2012, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the problem is even with shifts everywhere against good players you will run out of health faster than you run out of energy. Even if marines were weapon 0 and only had rifles celerity would still be better as you can get pretty insane momentum since with blink you keep your speed, so you can hop around at much faster speeds. That's only for fades though, adrenaline may still be great for gorges and lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the issue is health and not energy then you aren't talking about the adrenaline change.
<!--quoteo(post=1983519:date=Sep 26 2012, 09:53 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Sep 26 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the issue is health and not energy then you aren't talking about the adrenaline change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunno why im bothering to respond to this but ill say it nice and slow so you can get it: The issue is that your health is easier to keep if you are faster. This makes celerity a better choice than adrenaline in pretty much every case. If you're a gorge sitting on a shift you dont need adrenaline anyways. If you're an alien and can get to that shift faster with cele (and remember, with more health too!) than you dont really need adrenaline. Might as well get celerity.
<!--quoteo(post=1983520:date=Sep 27 2012, 01:59 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 27 2012, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno why im bothering to respond to this but ill say it nice and slow so you can get it: The issue is that your health is easier to keep if you are faster. This makes celerity a better choice than adrenaline in pretty much every case. If you're a gorge sitting on a shift you dont need adrenaline anyways. If you're an alien and can get to that shift faster with cele (and remember, with more health too!) than you dont really need adrenaline. Might as well get celerity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can see why people are so rude to you on this forum.
Adrenaline shouldn't require shifts for it to be a legitimate upgrade, just as regeneration shouldn't require crags.
The extra energy you get when you're on full is pretty much useless, because once it's run out, you have just as little energy to work with as any other alien. And you gotta wait around for the energy to replenish before you get to expend it again.
Also, what's the point on having adrenaline combo'd with shifts anyway? If there's a shift around, you're not going to run out of energy anyway, so does it matter having a higher maximum energy?
Sure, I get that a fade/skulk with adrenaline can blink/leap into a marine base and back to the shifts/crags outside to replenish energy/health, and have more energy to work with on each attack. Likewise with lerks spamming spores. But that seems like an awfully specific example, at an awful amount of cost (setting up the forward base with shifts and defending them, just to keep adrenaline a legitimate option) with little benefit, when celerity is probably the better option anyway.
If you're really wanting to keep this change, then perhaps make gorge heal-spray replenish other aliens energy too (as well as health). That way it gets rid of the dependence on shifts and makes it a more versitile upgrade (gorges can move anywhere on the map, shifts are locked into one place and require infestation). I don't think this is a good idea, but it'd make adren a little less useless this way.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1983520:date=Sep 26 2012, 08:59 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 26 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno why im bothering to respond to this but ill say it nice and slow so you can get it: The issue is that your health is easier to keep if you are faster. This makes celerity a better choice than adrenaline in pretty much every case. If you're a gorge sitting on a shift you dont need adrenaline anyways. If you're an alien and can get to that shift faster with cele (and remember, with more health too!) than you dont really need adrenaline. Might as well get celerity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More energy means more time spent blinking around the room not getting shot and dealing out damage. I fail to see how that's useless. Your "specific example" happens in every pub game that aliens win. I do understand the argument for celerity being better for some lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1983551:date=Sep 26 2012, 11:29 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Sep 26 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>More energy means more time spent blinking</b> around the room not getting shot and dealing out damage. I fail to see how that's useless. Your "specific example" happens in every pub game that aliens win. I do understand the argument for celerity being better for some lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because if you are holding down right click to blink, you're doing it wrong. There is a reason why they added momentum to blink, and using it effectively means adren is a joke of an upgrade now.
+1 for all the shift structure parrots. If you are using the shift structure to regen energy, then you don't even need adrenaline upgrade unless you're seriously that bad at managing your energy.
Edit: Hit and run techniques/tactics. With the new adren, you can no longer afford to stay in combat for more than 1 or 2 swipes depending on how bad/good the marine is. Meaning that carapace has also bit the dust is terms of usefulness on a fade since you're not longer hanging around for an additional swipe, you're getting out.
I like the change. It was needed. Old adrenaline broke shifts, flamethrowers and gave some life forms unlimited energy. The last point created bad habits and thats where the most complains are coming from. The aliens should need to watch their energy.
Instead of making the shifts useless again by adding a faster regen to adrenaline, I think hives being able to regen energy would be enough. As others already said, the new involvement of the kham to energy topics is very exciting in games.
The fade is a whole other topic. The initial-blink- and swipe-costs need to be increased to make adren viable for the fade and to make him more of a hit and run lifeform like he should be, without making him to weak.
<!--quoteo(post=1983641:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:31 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 27 2012, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade is a whole other topic. The initial-blink- and swipe-costs need to be increased to make adren viable for the fade and to make him more of a hit and run lifeform like he should be, without making him to weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We need to not balance lifeforms around having a specific upgrades because then they are locked into that upgrade.
Ahh, that wasn't my intention. I just think that the fade don't need to watch its energy. And while this lifeform is very powerful, I don't want any nerfs in health or armor for him. Increasing the costs for blink and swipe would create the need to play him more assassin-like and make it easier to punish fades that overextend. Right now, the fade is just to easy to handle. He needs more punishment for failures and not punishment for bad luck (=lower health).
The new adrenaline wouldn't even be mandatory for the fade, because health is often faster down than energy. A fade that is good in evasion and ambush will like adren, a fade that relies on getting back at healing stations often would like cele.
<!--quoteo(post=1983663:date=Sep 27 2012, 08:43 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 27 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A fade that is good in evasion and ambush will like adren, a fade that relies on getting back at healing stations often would like cele.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except both of those will benefit more from celerity/regen than adren/carapace has to offer. As long as you haven't been hit or haven't hit a marine within the last ~2-3 seconds, you still benefit from celerity. (Which I still bloody hate)
Silence is pretty good but it (and shade in general) doesn't really fit the current alien metagame, i.e if you would run it on your average public servers, most skulks wouldn't know how to utilise it properly. Same with camouflage, it's excellent for ambushing (although I don't know if they finally fixed that annoying marine minimap giving away alien positions...) I also think regen can be a really powerful upgrade (or used to, it seems to have been nerfed quite a bit), but you never see anyone getting that first. It's perfect for hit and running skulk play, i.e jump in get a few bites on and get out again.
Carapace could use some love on the gorge and lerk imo. (and maybe even on the onos)
Comments
It's not a matter of being bad as a jetpacker, the speed difference between a fade and jetpacker can't be argued. Jetpacks are SLOW, and that's a fact. No wait, nevermind. Just call me bad instead of making a real argument.
I think the new adrenaline should be like 250% or 300%. It synergizes well with shifts now but if you're running out of energy because you get back to the shift you're kinda screwed anyway.
+1 the only thing I have used adren on is gorge, even then cele might be better in some part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1983307:date=Sep 26 2012, 12:55 PM:name=Beelzebub)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Beelzebub @ Sep 26 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So.. whats the point of even using adrenaline if you need shifts everywhere to make it worthwhile?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You get an energy pool of 200%? Not everyone has ocd and is unable to take action unless they have 100% of everything. With adren being on 50% energy is the same an a non adren player being on 100%.
Shifts bring aliens to the fight faster. Phase Gates bring aliens to the fight faster. This is the only parallel I have drawn. No one is talking about being able to move between areas quickly, or using shifts as a means of rapid home-defense, or any other prominent feature of phasing.
I do not "LIKE" new adrenaline, but I also do not hate it. If you do not agree with the extend combat viability approach, I cannot change that. Shifts have their place, and so does new adrenaline.
And remember, a kitten is born for every fade that dies and complain about the new adren.
the problem is even with shifts everywhere against good players you will run out of health faster than you run out of energy. Even if marines were weapon 0 and only had rifles celerity would still be better as you can get pretty insane momentum since with blink you keep your speed, so you can hop around at much faster speeds. That's only for fades though, adrenaline may still be great for gorges and lerks.
Those 'stations' must have at least a shift, but I'd say also a few crags and definitely hydra's to keep it a bit safe. Lonely shifts are easy to take out, after all.
A definite improvement. Perhaps the numbers need to be tweaked a bit, but I like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's necessary to rechange adrenalin ability to something utterly useless to make it happend. Now aliens are being Depended on outposts around the map. Which is fine by me but this was always an important tatics in previous build. Only problem was the balance. The adrenalin recharge rate was to overpowered. I really wish that uwe would patiently balance it probably then rechange adrenalin game mechanic.
If the issue is health and not energy then you aren't talking about the adrenaline change.
Dunno why im bothering to respond to this but ill say it nice and slow so you can get it: The issue is that your health is easier to keep if you are faster. This makes celerity a better choice than adrenaline in pretty much every case. If you're a gorge sitting on a shift you dont need adrenaline anyways. If you're an alien and can get to that shift faster with cele (and remember, with more health too!) than you dont really need adrenaline. Might as well get celerity.
I can see why people are so rude to you on this forum.
The extra energy you get when you're on full is pretty much useless, because once it's run out, you have just as little energy to work with as any other alien. And you gotta wait around for the energy to replenish before you get to expend it again.
Also, what's the point on having adrenaline combo'd with shifts anyway? If there's a shift around, you're not going to run out of energy anyway, so does it matter having a higher maximum energy?
Sure, I get that a fade/skulk with adrenaline can blink/leap into a marine base and back to the shifts/crags outside to replenish energy/health, and have more energy to work with on each attack. Likewise with lerks spamming spores. But that seems like an awfully specific example, at an awful amount of cost (setting up the forward base with shifts and defending them, just to keep adrenaline a legitimate option) with little benefit, when celerity is probably the better option anyway.
If you're really wanting to keep this change, then perhaps make gorge heal-spray replenish other aliens energy too (as well as health). That way it gets rid of the dependence on shifts and makes it a more versitile upgrade (gorges can move anywhere on the map, shifts are locked into one place and require infestation). I don't think this is a good idea, but it'd make adren a little less useless this way.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1983520:date=Sep 26 2012, 08:59 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 26 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno why im bothering to respond to this but ill say it nice and slow so you can get it: The issue is that your health is easier to keep if you are faster. This makes celerity a better choice than adrenaline in pretty much every case. If you're a gorge sitting on a shift you dont need adrenaline anyways. If you're an alien and can get to that shift faster with cele (and remember, with more health too!) than you dont really need adrenaline. Might as well get celerity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
also, what he said
Because if you are holding down right click to blink, you're doing it wrong. There is a reason why they added momentum to blink, and using it effectively means adren is a joke of an upgrade now.
+1 for all the shift structure parrots. If you are using the shift structure to regen energy, then you don't even need adrenaline upgrade unless you're seriously that bad at managing your energy.
Edit: Hit and run techniques/tactics. With the new adren, you can no longer afford to stay in combat for more than 1 or 2 swipes depending on how bad/good the marine is. Meaning that carapace has also bit the dust is terms of usefulness on a fade since you're not longer hanging around for an additional swipe, you're getting out.
Instead of making the shifts useless again by adding a faster regen to adrenaline, I think hives being able to regen energy would be enough. As others already said, the new involvement of the kham to energy topics is very exciting in games.
The fade is a whole other topic. The initial-blink- and swipe-costs need to be increased to make adren viable for the fade and to make him more of a hit and run lifeform like he should be, without making him to weak.
We need to not balance lifeforms around having a specific upgrades because then they are locked into that upgrade.
The new adrenaline wouldn't even be mandatory for the fade, because health is often faster down than energy. A fade that is good in evasion and ambush will like adren, a fade that relies on getting back at healing stations often would like cele.
Except both of those will benefit more from celerity/regen than adren/carapace has to offer. As long as you haven't been hit or haven't hit a marine within the last ~2-3 seconds, you still benefit from celerity. (Which I still bloody hate)
How come silence hasn't been nerfed yet?
people have to actually use/upgrade silence first *wink wink* Shade hive 1st for the..more difficult win!
Carapace could use some love on the gorge and lerk imo. (and maybe even on the onos)