Ok here's the solution. Someone make a mod with the movement like it was in NS1, or close to it. Let it run on a couple servers so people can try it out. If it works out well (like it think it would) people will start to want that in the game, UWE dudes can check it out and decide to add it to the game. But nothing will happen as long as we just talk about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1983675:date=Sep 27 2012, 11:36 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 27 2012, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its offtopic, but <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWj2mc9u5vc&feature=player_embedded#" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWj2mc9u5vc...layer_embedded#</a>! in this creative movement example - is it because of the demo, or didnt you have to aim directly at marines to land bites if you are close enough?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've seen this in nearly every ns1 demo. I think its because they don't show the lag compensation illusions.
<!--quoteo(post=1983689:date=Sep 28 2012, 12:07 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Sep 28 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok here's the solution. Someone make a mod with the movement like it was in NS1, or close to it. Let it run on a couple servers so people can try it out. If it works out well (like it think it would) people will start to want that in the game, UWE dudes can check it out and decide to add it to the game. But nothing will happen as long as we just talk about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ns2c!
To be honest, I'm on the brink of giving up on NS2. I thought I'd eventually get accustomed to the slow and sluggish movement, but I didn't. Movement is such a crucial part of any FPS, and compared to the skillful and slick movement of NS1, Q3A, TFC, CS 1.6 and all the other games the older generation enjoyed, NS2 is ridiculously tedious. I'd love to enjoy it, but I can't. You can't replace speed and bhopping with something as dumbed down as walljumps and expect veterans to swallow it.
It's a real generation war in this thread: veterans in their late twenties who practised hundreds of hours to master their movement skills against <strike>the call of duty generation</strike> younger people.
Bhop might not have been created intentionally, but for reasons above my comprehension it worked in many games for many years. It spawned a whole new subculture around skill movement. And now UWE is trying to reinvent the wheel. I highly doubt they're going to succeed in that in a manner veterans approve enough to chose this game their next timesink.
But don't worry, devs. You already have my money. Just most likely one less player...
You are underestimating walljump. I think it was a pretty neat mechanic before uwe decided to ###### it up again, instead of giving us what we wanted (a lowered speed cap).
Yes it might be a little bit easier than ns1 bhop(and still it felt like 90% of ns2 players have no idea how to do it properly, so i guess its not THAT easy), but its relative limited compared to bunnyhop - so i would love to see how a combo with bhop would look like. (which we might get in ns2c)
Give me the ability to circle strafe like i could in rtcw and et and gamma jump like i could in quake and I'll be a happy panda ( won't happen though due to different game types)
Everyone who is debating things they don't like in NS2 versus NS1 should just play the NS2 Classic mod when it comes out. I stopped caring about all the issues I have with NS2 and have just accepted it will never be the game I wanted it to be. NS2C scratches every itch NS2 has not been able to, I'll just leave it at that.
<!--quoteo(post=1983669:date=Sep 27 2012, 09:14 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 27 2012, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not trying to convince anybody, nor do I have any need to in this particular matter. You've posted a bunch of lies and I've corrected you. The burden of proof is on you, to prove your original statements -- maybe you'll even learn something in the process.
If you want to educate yourself on bunnyhopping, <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">this is a good place to start</a>. The next step is using forum search, which is something you should've already done before posting your original reply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly don't know what lies I've posted that I have to prove anything about but okay buddy, whatever you say.
It is my opinion that bhop is ridiculous and will have an effect like res on kill in pub games: it will further separate the really skilled players from the new players. Not by raising the skill ceiling but by making it so the better players kind of sink lesser players into a hole they cant get out of every single game and basically make them quit the game. It will be worse than res on kill though however as theres no real tutorial that would explain bhop to new players. It would also be ridiculous as hell to purposefully integrate something like this into a serious game.
On a side note though I watched a few of those videos on your page and the skulk play I saw didn't really look too difficult to pull off in NS2, especially with leap. It only got ridiculous when I saw that jumped video and witnessed a marine almost literally flying around faster than a skulk can move in some weird crouched pose. You seriously don't think people would come on the forums and complain about exploiters if that happened after this game was released? Put yourself in charlie's shoes and think about the effect that would have on the game he's releasing.
Or maybe you don't have to put yourself in charlie's shoes. Wait until the next dev talk and ask him about bhop. Then you'll get your final, uncontested answer. An answer no one can challenge. Then this thread can hopefully get deleted.
Not going to use forum search to get people's opinions by the way. If they really gave a crap about what they are talking about, they'll take 20 seconds out of their oh so busy day to write a short paragraph explaining what they think about the issue, even if theyve already explained it before. Like I've just done! And if you don't give a crap, just keep whatever you're going to spew out to yourself okay?
<!--quoteo(post=1983727:date=Sep 27 2012, 11:45 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 27 2012, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are underestimating walljump. I think it was a pretty neat mechanic before uwe decided to ###### it up again, instead of giving us what we wanted (a lowered speed cap).
Yes it might be a little bit easier than ns1 bhop(and still it felt like 90% of ns2 players have no idea how to do it properly, so i guess its not THAT easy), but its relative limited compared to bunnyhop - so i would love to see how a combo with bhop would look like. (which we might get in ns2c)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, a mix of the two (basically allow skulks to keep momentum on the ground for a little bit in between wall jumps by bhopping), for aliens, would be ideal. I don't think bunnyhop needs to come back for marines at all, it adds very little to marine gameplay. It's ludicrous to propose that such a higher 'skill ceiling' would seriously affect the game for the worse, if anything it balances out the melee versus ranged gameplay much more on higher level games. (While keeping skulk play interesting enough even for the casual player)
And one technically doesn't need to know this to be able to enjoy oneself as a skulk, you could just stick with ambushing marines ,i.e more defensive play, as a skulk. Just like how you could enjoy a and manage as a NS 1 skulks perfectly fine as a casual player.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is my opinion that bhop is ridiculous and will have an effect like res on kill in pub games: it will further separate the really skilled players from the new players. Not by raising the skill ceiling but by making it so the better players kind of sink lesser players into a hole they cant get out of every single game and basically make them quit the game. It will be worse than res on kill though however as theres no real tutorial that would explain bhop to new players. It would also be ridiculous as hell to purposefully integrate something like this into a serious game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry but are you implying NS 1 was not a serious game? And NS 1's success alone pretty much nullifies your statement about how a higher skill ceiling is somehow detrimental to newer players. Like I said, you could manage just fine as a skulk even if you didn't know bunny-hopping, and you would be able to manage just fine in NS 2 just as well. But somehow you fail to see that.
<!--quoteo(post=1983777:date=Sep 27 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 27 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry but are you implying NS 1 was not a serious game? And NS 1's success alone pretty much nullifies your statement about how a higher skill ceiling is somehow detrimental to newer players. Like I said, you could manage just fine as a skulk even if you didn't know bunny-hopping, and you would be able to manage just fine in NS 2 just as well. But somehow you fail to see that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You still fail to address how a newer player will view a marine bouncing around while crouched at skulk speed. My main gripe is a marine flying around with an antiquated movement mechanic that doesn't belong in a modern game. Why does everyone keep avoiding this and nitpicking everything else?
Post a link to the total amount of players that played NS1.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1983735:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:15 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 27 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a side note though I watched a few of those videos on your page and the skulk play I saw didn't really look too difficult to pull off in NS2, especially with leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read the link I posted in my previous post to understand why leap isn't a solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1983735:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:15 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 27 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It only got ridiculous when I saw that jumped video and witnessed a marine almost literally flying around faster than a skulk can move in some weird crouched pose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the ignorance I'm talking about. If you actually knew how limited marine bunnyhopping was in NS1, you'd also realize it was practicaly useless in combat and only used to chain max two or three jumps together in extreme circumstances.
Most of the marine jumps in my "Jumped" movies aren't even possible to do in combat; they required you to throw away all your guns. Somehow I don't think marines doing limited jump combinations in specific parts of the map without any weapons to defend themselves with is going to be a problem, nor was it a problem in NS1.
Furthermore, even though the thread title is "Marine movement", the bunnyhop discussion in this thread is actually related to alien movement, not marine. You'd already known this if you'd bothered to actually read the thread before posting your nonsense.
<!--quoteo(post=1983735:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:15 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 27 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not going to use forum search to get people's opinions by the way. If they really gave a crap about what they are talking about, they'll take 20 seconds out of their oh so busy day to write a short paragraph explaining what they think about the issue, even if theyve already explained it before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you gave a crap about what YOU are talking about, you'd take the time to do a forum search and find the relevant information before posting lies and misinformation. If you had any decency, you'd show respect to the people who actually know what they're talking about by taking the time to find the wealth of information that is readily available, without wasting their time with your ignorance.
You're discrediting bunny-hopping as a whole, when myself and others have clearly stated it has merit especially as a skulk skill based movement system. I don't particularly support bunny-hopping as a movement mechanic for marines and I think most people don't, they have no need for it.
Also, success both in terms of player numbers as well as in its general reception. It's not for nothing that it is on the mod db hall of fame: <a href="http://www.modhof.com/" target="_blank">http://www.modhof.com/</a> or received the gamespy 2002 mod of the year award, among other things.
It was one of the more popular half life mods. You can do your own research, I thought this is stuff you knew too, given the fact that you too are, supposedly, an NS 1 player.
<!--quoteo(post=1983799:date=Sep 27 2012, 07:06 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 27 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't particularly support bunny-hopping as a movement mechanic for marines and I think most people don't, they have no need for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think anyone is asking for full bhop marines. If bhop mechanics get implemented for aliens, I'd maybe like to explore the NS1 kind of marine movement where marines can't really chain jumps, but they're allowed to use the bhop related mechanics to perform single dodge manouvres.
The neat thing about marine and bhop speed gain mechanics is how the marine has to decide between aiming and jump movements, but can do so in a very fluent, flexible, precise and rewarding way without having the need for extra keys for predesignated moves or separate movement modes.
The game was very popular yes, I loved it. But if you think NS2 isn't going to be more popular and want to include things that only NS1 had then you're only bringing this game down.
The only way any movement mechanic like bhop will get into the actual game is if the mechanic follows UWE's design mantra. One quote from that mantra is 'easy to learn, difficult to master.'
Seeing as how you describe the NS1 bhop mechanic as needing a roger federer level of skill to get right I dont think it will get in the game. You discredit leap as being too easy to use. Well. The world doesn't revolve around you and 1% of players who put that much time into this game. Hah you'd probably think it was perfectly fine if every scoreboard had one person carrying entire teams with a 10+ KDR and the rest of the players doing mediocre.
As i've said before, this game should be as much about strategy as it is about skill. Otherwise its just another call of duty. I read a quote from that TeoH person on your page saying because NS has rapid fire hitscan weapons that erratic and extra fast movement mechanics like bhop are necessary. Guess he's never heard of flanking (maybe even with silence, whoa!) or ambushing?
But you know what? Nothing I say matters. Nothing you say matters. No amount of crys for the good ole days here matter at all. Its all up to flayra. It is his game after all right? And since bhop really doesn't follow that design mantra I mentioned earlier I don't think it'll get in.
I think this thread will get a lot better if we just start ignoring CoW and get back to discussing relevant mechanics. Personally, I like Xarius's walljump-to-get, bhop-to-store take on it. I loved it back before skulk friction was cranked up, and I think I'd love it again if UWE brought it back.
I'm not trying to troll you understand, I'm trying to put myself in UWE's shoes and be <b>realistic</b> with my expectations. Thats why I quoted their mantra.
Also I coulda swore this thread was about marine movement mechanics, not skulk movement? If skulks were given clever movement mechanics I don't think I'd mind as long as they are intuitive. It doesn't HAVE to be something like bhop, but it can be just as effective. Skulks are supposed to be mobile. Marines, on the other hand, are not.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
This thread needs to get back on topic. Bunny hop is not going to be in NS2, the devs have been adamant about this since day 1, years ago.
Knowing this.. we need to move on and let the topic get back on track to "Marine movement". Personally, i'd like to see Marine jump height <a href="http://i.imgur.com/6Yswn.jpg" target="_blank">reduced </a>, implement proper crouch jumping, fix strafe acceleration, remove sprint and increase base speed. Finally, i'd like there to be a square box of a collision around the marine so that a) the skulk can hit when it should (instead of missing due to oddities like too accurate of hitboxes not working with improper bite cones) b) The marine can look down and actually shoot the skulk instead of it inside his model or walking under him etc. Hell, this can even inhibit skulks sometimes due to confusion of orientation
Well ironhorse's summary is, in general, not bad. For starters, I'd personally love if I could crouch mid air without losing horizontal speed. It makes no sense and feels plain wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1983836:date=Sep 27 2012, 02:30 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 27 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread needs to get back on topic. Bunny hop is not going to be in NS2, the devs have been adamant about this since day 1, years ago.
Knowing this.. we need to move on and let the topic get back on track to "Marine movement". Personally, i'd like to see Marine jump height <a href="http://i.imgur.com/6Yswn.jpg" target="_blank">reduced </a>, implement proper crouch jumping, fix strafe acceleration, remove sprint and increase base speed. Finally, i'd like there to be a square box of a collision around the marine so that a) the skulk can hit when it should (instead of missing due to oddities like too accurate of hitboxes not working with improper bite cones) b) The marine can look down and actually shoot the skulk instead of it inside his model or walking under him etc. Hell, this can even inhibit skulks sometimes due to confusion of orientation<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with most of this, but a square collision box would have corners you could get caught on. I'd rather see a much larger, better designed cylinder for a collision box. Bite cone fix should take care of any hit issues without the need for a hitbox adjustment.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1983836:date=Sep 27 2012, 08:30 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 27 2012, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread needs to get back on topic. Bunny hop is not going to be in NS2, the devs have been adamant about this since day 1, years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They have been adamant about a great many things, but changed their mind later on. Considering how many people would like to see meaningful skulk movement, and considering how disappointing the wallhop experiment has been so far, it's about time certain initial dogmas were revisited.
Skipping along the ground to retain momentum you acquired by wall-jumping isn't bunny-hopping anyway. I feel like that word has been so charged with controversy and opinion and age-old blood oaths that it's become almost worthless. Bunny-hop supporters should start extolling the virtues of the mechanics they support directly, outside of the negative connotations of bhop.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1983836:date=Sep 27 2012, 08:30 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 27 2012, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread needs to get back on topic. Bunny hop is not going to be in NS2, the devs have been adamant about this since day 1, years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes our greatest learning experiences, and our biggest successes come when we let go of that we have been religiously holding onto, admitting we could be wrong and trying something else...
<!--quoteo(post=1983876:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:03 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 27 2012, 05:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They have been adamant about a great many things, but changed their mind later on. Considering how many people would like to see meaningful skulk movement, and considering how disappointing the wallhop experiment has been so far, it's about time certain initial dogmas were revisited.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Reminds me of how Tribes Ascend was at first. A lot of people hated it because it didn't stick to the original and their unlock system was bullocks along with the physics and movement. And hitscan. They fortunately decided to change their entire mindset and listen to the veteran players so now both vets and new players are really happy. Balance is still talked about a lot of course, but what game with unlocks doesn't have that?
How movement should be in NS2 - <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opzeZN7Xmx8&feature=plcp" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opzeZN7Xmx8&feature=plcp</a>
Just like good old Counter-Strike, complete control of your character, a few jumps equates to abit of a speed up if done right(bhopping) and when you press the S key it doesn't back you walk slow backwards.
I made a post not to far back about Marine movement aswell, I assume they're happy with the sluggish casual gamer feel it gives off? I don't know. One thing I do know is, it's the biggest flaw the game has yet, as mentioned above, Marines are just a turret, nothing more. I'd like to see more individual skill in the game, not just players acting out as drones running around completing tasks for the commander.
Cory recently confirmed that BHOP is not something they want in the game. I don't see this changing before 1.0... despite the games desperate need for a movement system that works.
In saying that...
Can someone take the movement code from NS2c (no sprint, bhop for skulk/fade, no accel/deacceleration when changing between strafe keys, reduction on speed debuff for backwards movement) and just add it to NS2 vanilla? Much easier for retards like CoW to transition over to servers that have increased skill based movement than playing NS1 in NS2.
What I can't understand is UWE want the game to be 'esports' lol... yet continue to push a movement system on us that we are all screaming at to fix. They throw out blanket terms like 'unintuitive' and not 'immersive' as if its some sort of argument. Unintuitive is solved by a tutorial and immersive... has no place in a 'esports' game.
Slamming yourself headfirst in to a wall, storing energy invisibly, snappy mouse movement, weird speed boosts, being at the whim of complicated geometry and combining speed with unpredictability...
All in all, wallhop has been a pretty horrific attempt to address the root concerns with bunnyhop and has been a step backwards in all respects except one - the fact that skulks use walls more (a ridiculous justification, tantamount to fobbing us off, in the context of how long and unsuccessful the wallhop iteration process has been).
All the reasons why bunnyhop has been blacklisted exist in wallhop just as much, if not more.
Comments
I've seen this in nearly every ns1 demo. I think its because they don't show the lag compensation illusions.
<!--quoteo(post=1983689:date=Sep 28 2012, 12:07 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Sep 28 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok here's the solution. Someone make a mod with the movement like it was in NS1, or close to it. Let it run on a couple servers so people can try it out. If it works out well (like it think it would) people will start to want that in the game, UWE dudes can check it out and decide to add it to the game. But nothing will happen as long as we just talk about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns2c!
It's a real generation war in this thread: veterans in their late twenties who practised hundreds of hours to master their movement skills against <strike>the call of duty generation</strike> younger people.
Bhop might not have been created intentionally, but for reasons above my comprehension it worked in many games for many years. It spawned a whole new subculture around skill movement. And now UWE is trying to reinvent the wheel. I highly doubt they're going to succeed in that in a manner veterans approve enough to chose this game their next timesink.
But don't worry, devs. You already have my money. Just most likely one less player...
I think it was a pretty neat mechanic before uwe decided to ###### it up again, instead of giving us what we wanted (a lowered speed cap).
Yes it might be a little bit easier than ns1 bhop(and still it felt like 90% of ns2 players have no idea how to do it properly, so i guess its not THAT easy), but its relative limited compared to bunnyhop - so i would love to see how a combo with bhop would look like. (which we might get in ns2c)
Seriously?
woops, I (obviously) meant pre 1.6.
If auto download works next patch as Brian and Max have claimed, you can expect NS2 Classic servers to start popping up as early as next week.
If you want to educate yourself on bunnyhopping, <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">this is a good place to start</a>. The next step is using forum search, which is something you should've already done before posting your original reply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly don't know what lies I've posted that I have to prove anything about but okay buddy, whatever you say.
It is my opinion that bhop is ridiculous and will have an effect like res on kill in pub games: it will further separate the really skilled players from the new players. Not by raising the skill ceiling but by making it so the better players kind of sink lesser players into a hole they cant get out of every single game and basically make them quit the game. It will be worse than res on kill though however as theres no real tutorial that would explain bhop to new players. It would also be ridiculous as hell to purposefully integrate something like this into a serious game.
On a side note though I watched a few of those videos on your page and the skulk play I saw didn't really look too difficult to pull off in NS2, especially with leap. It only got ridiculous when I saw that jumped video and witnessed a marine almost literally flying around faster than a skulk can move in some weird crouched pose. You seriously don't think people would come on the forums and complain about exploiters if that happened after this game was released? Put yourself in charlie's shoes and think about the effect that would have on the game he's releasing.
Or maybe you don't have to put yourself in charlie's shoes. Wait until the next dev talk and ask him about bhop. Then you'll get your final, uncontested answer. An answer no one can challenge. Then this thread can hopefully get deleted.
Not going to use forum search to get people's opinions by the way. If they really gave a crap about what they are talking about, they'll take 20 seconds out of their oh so busy day to write a short paragraph explaining what they think about the issue, even if theyve already explained it before. Like I've just done! And if you don't give a crap, just keep whatever you're going to spew out to yourself okay?
I think it was a pretty neat mechanic before uwe decided to ###### it up again, instead of giving us what we wanted (a lowered speed cap).
Yes it might be a little bit easier than ns1 bhop(and still it felt like 90% of ns2 players have no idea how to do it properly, so i guess its not THAT easy), but its relative limited compared to bunnyhop - so i would love to see how a combo with bhop would look like. (which we might get in ns2c)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, a mix of the two (basically allow skulks to keep momentum on the ground for a little bit in between wall jumps by bhopping), for aliens, would be ideal. I don't think bunnyhop needs to come back for marines at all, it adds very little to marine gameplay. It's ludicrous to propose that such a higher 'skill ceiling' would seriously affect the game for the worse, if anything it balances out the melee versus ranged gameplay much more on higher level games. (While keeping skulk play interesting enough even for the casual player)
And one technically doesn't need to know this to be able to enjoy oneself as a skulk, you could just stick with ambushing marines ,i.e more defensive play, as a skulk. Just like how you could enjoy a and manage as a NS 1 skulks perfectly fine as a casual player.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is my opinion that bhop is ridiculous and will have an effect like res on kill in pub games: it will further separate the really skilled players from the new players. Not by raising the skill ceiling but by making it so the better players kind of sink lesser players into a hole they cant get out of every single game and basically make them quit the game. It will be worse than res on kill though however as theres no real tutorial that would explain bhop to new players. It would also be ridiculous as hell to purposefully integrate something like this into a serious game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but are you implying NS 1 was not a serious game? And NS 1's success alone pretty much nullifies your statement about how a higher skill ceiling is somehow detrimental to newer players. Like I said, you could manage just fine as a skulk even if you didn't know bunny-hopping, and you would be able to manage just fine in NS 2 just as well. But somehow you fail to see that.
You still fail to address how a newer player will view a marine bouncing around while crouched at skulk speed. My main gripe is a marine flying around with an antiquated movement mechanic that doesn't belong in a modern game. Why does everyone keep avoiding this and nitpicking everything else?
Post a link to the total amount of players that played NS1.
Read the link I posted in my previous post to understand why leap isn't a solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1983735:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:15 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 27 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It only got ridiculous when I saw that jumped video and witnessed a marine almost literally flying around faster than a skulk can move in some weird crouched pose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the ignorance I'm talking about. If you actually knew how limited marine bunnyhopping was in NS1, you'd also realize it was practicaly useless in combat and only used to chain max two or three jumps together in extreme circumstances.
Most of the marine jumps in my "Jumped" movies aren't even possible to do in combat; they required you to throw away all your guns. Somehow I don't think marines doing limited jump combinations in specific parts of the map without any weapons to defend themselves with is going to be a problem, nor was it a problem in NS1.
Furthermore, even though the thread title is "Marine movement", the bunnyhop discussion in this thread is actually related to alien movement, not marine. You'd already known this if you'd bothered to actually read the thread before posting your nonsense.
<!--quoteo(post=1983735:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:15 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 27 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not going to use forum search to get people's opinions by the way. If they really gave a crap about what they are talking about, they'll take 20 seconds out of their oh so busy day to write a short paragraph explaining what they think about the issue, even if theyve already explained it before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you gave a crap about what YOU are talking about, you'd take the time to do a forum search and find the relevant information before posting lies and misinformation. If you had any decency, you'd show respect to the people who actually know what they're talking about by taking the time to find the wealth of information that is readily available, without wasting their time with your ignorance.
Also, success both in terms of player numbers as well as in its general reception. It's not for nothing that it is on the mod db hall of fame:
<a href="http://www.modhof.com/" target="_blank">http://www.modhof.com/</a>
or received the gamespy 2002 mod of the year award, among other things.
It was one of the more popular half life mods. You can do your own research, I thought this is stuff you knew too, given the fact that you too are, supposedly, an NS 1 player.
I don't think anyone is asking for full bhop marines. If bhop mechanics get implemented for aliens, I'd maybe like to explore the NS1 kind of marine movement where marines can't really chain jumps, but they're allowed to use the bhop related mechanics to perform single dodge manouvres.
The neat thing about marine and bhop speed gain mechanics is how the marine has to decide between aiming and jump movements, but can do so in a very fluent, flexible, precise and rewarding way without having the need for extra keys for predesignated moves or separate movement modes.
The only way any movement mechanic like bhop will get into the actual game is if the mechanic follows UWE's design mantra. One quote from that mantra is 'easy to learn, difficult to master.'
Seeing as how you describe the NS1 bhop mechanic as needing a roger federer level of skill to get right I dont think it will get in the game. You discredit leap as being too easy to use. Well. The world doesn't revolve around you and 1% of players who put that much time into this game. Hah you'd probably think it was perfectly fine if every scoreboard had one person carrying entire teams with a 10+ KDR and the rest of the players doing mediocre.
As i've said before, this game should be as much about strategy as it is about skill. Otherwise its just another call of duty. I read a quote from that TeoH person on your page saying because NS has rapid fire hitscan weapons that erratic and extra fast movement mechanics like bhop are necessary. Guess he's never heard of flanking (maybe even with silence, whoa!) or ambushing?
But you know what? Nothing I say matters. Nothing you say matters. No amount of crys for the good ole days here matter at all. Its all up to flayra. It is his game after all right? And since bhop really doesn't follow that design mantra I mentioned earlier I don't think it'll get in.
Also I coulda swore this thread was about marine movement mechanics, not skulk movement? If skulks were given clever movement mechanics I don't think I'd mind as long as they are intuitive. It doesn't HAVE to be something like bhop, but it can be just as effective. Skulks are supposed to be mobile. Marines, on the other hand, are not.
Knowing this.. we need to move on and let the topic get back on track to "Marine movement".
Personally, i'd like to see Marine jump height <a href="http://i.imgur.com/6Yswn.jpg" target="_blank">reduced </a>, implement proper crouch jumping, fix strafe acceleration, remove sprint and increase base speed.
Finally, i'd like there to be a square box of a collision around the marine so that
a) the skulk can hit when it should (instead of missing due to oddities like too accurate of hitboxes not working with improper bite cones)
b) The marine can look down and actually shoot the skulk instead of it inside his model or walking under him etc. Hell, this can even inhibit skulks sometimes due to confusion of orientation
Deleted.
Why do i even bother, wont change anything anyway.
Knowing this.. we need to move on and let the topic get back on track to "Marine movement".
Personally, i'd like to see Marine jump height <a href="http://i.imgur.com/6Yswn.jpg" target="_blank">reduced </a>, implement proper crouch jumping, fix strafe acceleration, remove sprint and increase base speed.
Finally, i'd like there to be a square box of a collision around the marine so that
a) the skulk can hit when it should (instead of missing due to oddities like too accurate of hitboxes not working with improper bite cones)
b) The marine can look down and actually shoot the skulk instead of it inside his model or walking under him etc. Hell, this can even inhibit skulks sometimes due to confusion of orientation<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with most of this, but a square collision box would have corners you could get caught on. I'd rather see a much larger, better designed cylinder for a collision box. Bite cone fix should take care of any hit issues without the need for a hitbox adjustment.
They have been adamant about a great many things, but changed their mind later on. Considering how many people would like to see meaningful skulk movement, and considering how disappointing the wallhop experiment has been so far, it's about time certain initial dogmas were revisited.
Sometimes our greatest learning experiences, and our biggest successes come when we let go of that we have been religiously holding onto, admitting we could be wrong and trying something else...
Reminds me of how Tribes Ascend was at first. A lot of people hated it because it didn't stick to the original and their unlock system was bullocks along with the physics and movement. And hitscan. They fortunately decided to change their entire mindset and listen to the veteran players so now both vets and new players are really happy. Balance is still talked about a lot of course, but what game with unlocks doesn't have that?
Just like good old Counter-Strike, complete control of your character, a few jumps equates to abit of a speed up if done right(bhopping) and when you press the S key it doesn't back you walk slow backwards.
I made a post not to far back about Marine movement aswell, I assume they're happy with the sluggish casual gamer feel it gives off? I don't know. One thing I do know is, it's the biggest flaw the game has yet, as mentioned above, Marines are just a turret, nothing more. I'd like to see more individual skill in the game, not just players acting out as drones running around completing tasks for the commander.
In saying that...
Can someone take the movement code from NS2c (no sprint, bhop for skulk/fade, no accel/deacceleration when changing between strafe keys, reduction on speed debuff for backwards movement) and just add it to NS2 vanilla? Much easier for retards like CoW to transition over to servers that have increased skill based movement than playing NS1 in NS2.
What I can't understand is UWE want the game to be 'esports' lol... yet continue to push a movement system on us that we are all screaming at to fix. They throw out blanket terms like 'unintuitive' and not 'immersive' as if its some sort of argument. Unintuitive is solved by a tutorial and immersive... has no place in a 'esports' game.
All in all, wallhop has been a pretty horrific attempt to address the root concerns with bunnyhop and has been a step backwards in all respects except one - the fact that skulks use walls more (a ridiculous justification, tantamount to fobbing us off, in the context of how long and unsuccessful the wallhop iteration process has been).
All the reasons why bunnyhop has been blacklisted exist in wallhop just as much, if not more.