Unofficial Heatsink thread

24

Comments

  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1979749:date=Sep 19 2012, 06:37 AM:name=DrDopehat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DrDopehat @ Sep 19 2012, 06:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You elect to participate in something that have certain demands and requirements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Bingo

    <!--quoteo(post=1979753:date=Sep 19 2012, 06:43 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Sep 19 2012, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just don't think this is a realistic expectation for an internet tournament.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Watch professional esport 'internet tournaments' and tell me they don't do high production values.

    <!--quoteo(post=1979755:date=Sep 19 2012, 06:45 AM:name=supsu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (supsu @ Sep 19 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you should consider giving teams the break between matches at least;<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Absolutely, we learnt a huge amount from the WasabiCup. One of those things is that 6 hours is way too long, for players and casters.

    <!--quoteo(post=1979756:date=Sep 19 2012, 06:46 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Sep 19 2012, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stream is no TV though. People don't change channel if there is a 2 minutes break.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is seriously incorrect, I can measure viewer loss and we haemorrhage during extended, obviously unscheduled 'breaks' where no content is available.

    <!--quoteo(post=1979759:date=Sep 19 2012, 06:51 AM:name=Venatos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Venatos @ Sep 19 2012, 06:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as a regular viewer of competitve NS2 i want to thank you for standing up for us viewers, because we are voiceless in such situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No worries!

    <!--quoteo(post=1979762:date=Sep 19 2012, 06:55 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 19 2012, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is what we were talking about Hugh, everything you've said here, is fantastic. What you want is to create a spectacle, and I think most of us here are 100% on board with that idea!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I am at your service to put your play up in lights.

    <!--quoteo(post=1979762:date=Sep 19 2012, 06:55 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 19 2012, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But that ENSL Cup was not your stage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It won't matter who's cup it is, who is organising it, what brand name is stuck on it. If it is on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, it has to play by the 'high octane' rules.

    <!--quoteo(post=1979762:date=Sep 19 2012, 06:55 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 19 2012, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really hope you let us, the players, help you make it better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    We're all making it better together already. By going through these pains with these smaller matches (ENSL/Wasabi) when we only have a few thousand viewers, we can learn how to all work best together: Casters, tournament hosts, players, viewers, and sponsors.

    It's very important we have all these arguments, and we should all be proud that the NS forums are not such a sterile place that passionate debate cannot be had.
  • neilm86neilm86 Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67198Members
    I watch most of NS2s broadcasts and i noticed the view count drop during the breaks in between the action.

    Have you considered showing your awesome trailers during the idle time as it probably mostly people that don't own or know much about the game leaving during these times.
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1979767:date=Sep 18 2012, 05:05 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It won't matter who's cup it is, who is organising it, what brand name is stuck on it. If it is on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, it has to play by the 'high octane' rules.


    We're all making it better together already. By going through these pains with these smaller matches (ENSL/Wasabi) when we only have a few thousand viewers, we can learn how to all work best together: Casters, tournament hosts, players, viewers, and sponsors.

    It's very important we have all these arguments, and we should all be proud that the NS forums are not such a sterile place that passionate debate cannot be had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This shouldn't be an argument or a debate. Its a discussion, and regardless of what we call the exchange, nothing is gained through it without both parties reaching an understanding.

    I think its been made clear that we understand your side of this Hugh, but I don't think you're quite hearing ours.

    If you tried this approach with any other eSport, or any Sport at all for that matter, you would meet a great deal more resistance than we're giving you here.

    No match, no Tournament, no event that you do not yourself host and create the rules for can be both subject to your discretion (or any casters, or viewers) and be considered a legitimate, professionally run eSporting event.

    I think many of us are in favor of what you want to produce, and many of us would like to help you do it. But do not attempt to dictate terms to teams outside of your production, or without forewarning those players of what you expect of them.

    If cannot compromise on your stance of "anything I stream is subject to my rules," then there is no longer a discussion here. Just two sides who cannot reach a consensus. And, quite frankly, if you're unwilling to work with us on the things we want to do, then you give us very little reason to want to work with you on the things you want to do.

    Again Hugh, many of us simply want to help you become a better caster for the NS2 competitive community. But you have to be willing to understand the professional eSports side of this if you want any of us to take you seriously.

    Work with us, and we'll work with you. Lay down ultimatums, and you're going to lose a great deal of credibility.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1979774:date=Sep 19 2012, 07:15 AM:name=neilm86)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (neilm86 @ Sep 19 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you considered showing your awesome trailers during the idle time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yep - Trailers, stats (Go NS2Stats.org!) and the replay trick we pulled off for the WasabiCup can all fill in unexpected gaps. It worked really well in the WasabiCup when there were unavoidable downtimes

    The key is that this 'filler' can only ever be the exception, not the rule. So as the twitch.tv/naturalselection2 stage gets bigger and better, we need to make sure that the discipline and punctuality is absolutely bang on. When the ###### hits the fan (e.g. server crash, player gets sick) we stay cool and pull the filler while fixing the problem in the background.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1979776:date=Sep 19 2012, 07:22 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 19 2012, 07:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Work with us, and we'll work with you. Lay down ultimatums, and you're going to lose a great deal of credibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    We're talking past each other a little bit. I'm not dictating to you how to run ENSL tournaments, I'm telling you what is required if you want ENSL tournaments on twitch.tv/naturalselection2. It's a two way deal. You make the rules, set the formats, everthing: I tell you what's required in terms of punctuality and speed. That punctuality and speed is not negotiable. If you want a tournament where 15 minute breaks are acceptable between rounds, then that's totally cool, there's no problem there. But it's not cool on twitch.tv/naturalselection2.

    Also, I will hang in this thread for the next half hour so we can continue this debate, it's very productive.
  • LutherLuther Join Date: 2012-05-29 Member: 152714Members
    edited September 2012
    I completely agree with Hugh on this one, for the people watching they need constant content or they are going to leave and that's not acceptable for a live broadcast, Something that could be done is having multiple games going so there is never a break in the live feeds when some teams are taking there 15 minute break but that takes away the spotlight for a lot of players in the tournament.

    -edited-
  • nSidianSidia Join Date: 2012-08-15 Member: 155651Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1979767:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:05 PM:name=Strayan%20%26%2340%3BNS2HD%26%2341%3B)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan%20%26%2340%3BNS2HD%26%2341%3B @ Sep 18 2012, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It won't matter who's cup it is, who is organising it, what brand name is stuck on it. If it is on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, it has to play by the 'high octane' rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well i sure hope twitch.tv/naturalselection2 isn't a part of any future ns2 esport event. Thank God for <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2</a> <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/rwryne" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/rwryne</a> ...
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1979767:date=Sep 18 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Watch professional esport 'internet tournaments' and tell me they don't do high production values.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I didn't say anything about production values. Specifically I'm saying that rule disputes are a problem on par with the server going down or whatever, and they need to be handled correctly. The only reason these disputes take up time is because of mistakes on the part of tournament organizers(like not having the correct roster, or not having decided on the rules for winning the finals). When that happens, somebody has to fix it, and fix it properly. Reaching a hasty decision to keep the stream moving compromises the integrity of the tournament.
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1979779:date=Sep 18 2012, 05:26 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're talking past each other a little bit. I'm not dictating to you how to run ENSL tournaments, I'm telling you what is required if you want ENSL tournaments on twitch.tv/naturalselection2. It's a two way deal. You make the rules, set the formats, everthing: I tell you what's required in terms of punctuality and speed. That punctuality and speed is not negotiable. If you want a tournament where 15 minute breaks are acceptable between rounds, then that's totally cool, there's no problem there. But it's not cool on twitch.tv/naturalselection2.

    Also, I will hang in this thread for the next half hour so we can continue this debate, it's very productive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Okay, well that's a bit different from what I was reading into your earlier posts, so I'm glad that's clarified.

    Let me ask you this though, when the inevitable problem arises, say like in the ENSL Cup, how do you intend to resolve it? I know the Nexzil players, myself included, felt greatly slighted by the way that was handled, and ending streams early or cutting them off only lowers the production value.

    As well, have you considered other possible compromises to this situations? Excluding a tournament from the NS2HD casting simply due to them having too much down time (which I agree also takes away from the production value), seems like a terrible waste.

    There are ways around this issue that can be resolved through nothing more than clever scheduling and some slight of hand. You, as a stream, can only really commentate on one match at a time, but for large tournaments, like the ones coming up (hopefully), will generally have multiple games going on at the same time.

    Why not have someone else record these other games for you, and during the down time they can quickly construct highlight reels of other matches, so that if there is unavoidable down time, you don't have to fiddle with replays, but can instead draw viewers attention to what's happening elsewhere in the tournament?

    While that might be a bit difficult to pull off from a technical stand point, I don't think its totally impossible to implement something like that, which gives you the ability to afford teams their extended downtime while simultaneously providing viewers with higher value content than a simple replay.

    As well, assuming some clever match scheduling, organizers might try to stagger matches, rather than have several being played simultaneously, so that if things get hung up in one match, you can always quickly switch to another, allowing you to provide greater coverage of the tournament as a whole, without creating any misgivings between teams who are having some sort of issue.

    I think ideas like this are worth exploring, as I would hate to see the competitive community simply tell you to bugger off because you're stepping on their toes.
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It won't matter who's cup it is, who is organising it, what brand name is stuck on it. If it is on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, it has to play by the 'high octane' rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Then "twitch.tv/naturalselection2" (you) have to contact whoever is organising it and make sure

    a) they make sure teams know and accept <u>your</u> rules and enforce them
    b) they quickly handle unforeseen problems and solve them

    Instead of getting all over teams.

    I mean we are not playing pure random fun matches, rules matter - and as long as rules are changing a lot or miss things there might be delays. (and you have to accept that, and not be mad at teams that they didnt just shut up and keep on playing ignoring possible rule mistakes just to not lose viewers)

    At least i think all delays were not because teams were doing random ######, beeing semi afk or whatever, it was because of stuff administrators of the tournament would have needed to solve. (but didnt realize it fast enough or whatever)

    e.g. it took like 10min until finally someone decided to cointoss to chose which map ppl play first in one game, or the thing with tane were nobody had an idea about the players that were signed up.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    I think your goals Hugh are fine, but I think something that would help greatly is a list of rules to be adhered to. Something like:

    1) Teams must be ready to play within 10 minutes of scheduled time
    2) Streamers and/or spectators can at no time call "not live" on a game in progress for any reason at any time

    ...etc, etc.


    Having strict expectations is OK. Leaving an open ended "you must yield to all streamer preferences" is not OK. Make a list of rules of what you can and cannot do, and what teams can and cannot do so that everyone is on the same page would be great. I'm sure both streamers and teams would be willing to collaborate to come up with a list of rules that caters evenly to both parties.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1979782:date=Sep 19 2012, 07:35 AM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Sep 19 2012, 07:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well i sure hope twitch.tv/naturalselection2 isn't a part of any future ns2 esport event. Thank God for <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2</a> <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/rwryne" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/rwryne</a> ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I sure hope those channels explode. I will do everything in my power to help them grow.

    <!--quoteo(post=1979783:date=Sep 19 2012, 07:38 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Sep 19 2012, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->rule disputes are a problem on par with the server going down or whatever, and they need to be handled correctly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They sure do. No dispute about that here. You're putting up a straw man.

    Of course, if you want to spend 15 minutes discussing the finer points of double elimination theory, there are places to do that. There are also places to not do that.
  • VenatosVenatos Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149762Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    <!--quoteo(post=1979764:date=Sep 18 2012, 11:02 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 18 2012, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont think any of us have a problem with attempting to meet these sorts of expectations. But recognize that, from a professional Sports stand point, not even eSports, just Sports in general, Casters have no control or influence over the outcome or length of a game, nor should they.

    TV Casters don't try to rush referees when they're debating a play during the Superbowl.

    But you're point is well taken, and it behooves us all as competitive players to not disregard the desires of those spectators. Just understand that there has to be a balance, and it should be made with the reasonable intentions to provide the best possible entertainment value without compromising the integrity of the game.

    That's all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i am with you on this one, delays happen all the time and will continue to happen. viewers know and accept that, players crashing, teams descussing strategies, switching servers and so on.
    but to pick up the mentioned referees from the Superbowl, they also have a rather limited timeframe for discussions.
    the point being, that if some issue isnt solveable within a limited timeframe, lets say 5 - 10 minutes, alternatives have to be looked at.(other matchups, resceduling, etc.)
    actually the point is: especialy at these early "test tournaments" someone has to keep the preasure on and push discussions back after the cast. because here in this early stages not all eventualitys are hammered into rules. the wasabi cup was great and many lessons have been learned. in the next tournament new rules and penaltys will be in place to account for that learned lessons. and in 6 month there will be no more discussions or misunderstandings because the rules will stand and everyone will understand them.
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1979788:date=Sep 18 2012, 05:44 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I sure hope those channels explode. I will do everything in my power to help them grow.



    They sure do. No dispute about that here. You're putting up a straw man.

    Of course, if you want to spend 15 minutes discussing the finer points of double elimination theory, there are places to do that. There are also places to not do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Just to be clear, you put up a straw man by not directly addressing the point Zek made, not the other way around. But logical fallacies aside...

    You're right in that there is a time and place to discuss rules and their implementation, and that time is before the games start. As has been said many times here and elsewhere, rules (and thus player expectations) need to be made clearly and precisely prior to the event. Doing so allows disputes to be handled quickly and decisively.

    Much of the problems related to the issue of rules in the previous two events can easily be mitigated by a better implementation of the rules, as well as granting greater authority (and credibility) to the admins of those matches, so that they have the ability to make judgments fairly and without bias.

    Unfortunately, your bias is to your stream and its viewers. And because you have that bias, you cannot be allowed to dictate what goes on during match. You <b>can</b> set rules and expectations prior to the match by cooperating with the organizers who host the event, thus ensuring all participating players have agreed to your requirements. But you cannot have sway over what takes place during a match, and if there's a problem, you need to take it up with the person acting as referee for that match, not the players or the teams.

    Organization is the foundation of professional sporting. And these last two events, I think, have been very educational, but there's still a ways to go.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    The high octane formula of the streams are nice, but don't forget the viewers and especially the players need a sufficient break between games.
  • LutherLuther Join Date: 2012-05-29 Member: 152714Members
    As a viewer I definitely do not want to be looking at a ns2 logo with a count down for 10 minutes just because the pod caster thinks viewers need a break.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Breaks? Blasphemy! The viewer count as spoken, his word is sacred, you <i>must</i> play. Until death and beyond.
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1979807:date=Sep 18 2012, 06:12 PM:name=Luther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luther @ Sep 18 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a viewer I definitely do not want to be looking at a ns2 logo with a count down for 10 minutes just because the pod caster thinks viewers need a break.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    I also don't want to watch commercials during Monday night football, but when you're watching something live, you can't always expect constant action.

    If we prerecorded the matches, and aired them at a later time, then this whole issue becomes completely moot. What we're discussing is live streams.
  • VenatosVenatos Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149762Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited September 2012
    so i just reread the posts.
    to summarize:
    1. we need detailed rules for the tournaments. (to avoid discussion)
    2. we need the participating teams to be punktual and aware of the rules.(for a smooth tournament)
    3. we need the matches sceduled tightly or overlapping.(to minimize downtimes on the stream)

    sounds doable.

    ps: 4. we need a tournament organisator/official to take the heat from the hundreds/thousands of viewers in form of their godfather hugh. (just in case there are hickups) ;)
  • Raza.Raza. Join Date: 2004-01-24 Member: 25663Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1979733:date=Sep 18 2012, 10:18 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 18 2012, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It won't change. Any event happening on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 will be run as if it is a live show in a stadium, concert hall, or other time-sensitive venue. There will never be a situation in which teams are allowed to discuss and debate these problems when a match is due to start. Ever. If a team does something illegal, DQs / whatever else can happen off stream. Hell will have no wrath like me when a twitch.tv/naturalselection2 stream is put in limbo by an argument over tournament rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The thing is, that's none of your business, casters aren't referees. In the end any commentator or caster is just an observer and a guest.
    You can always decide to stop casting, if the teams are taking too long or when the tourney turns out to be badly organized.
    That's completely fine, but it's all you can do.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be completely clear: All teams playing on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 should expect a fast paced, high-pressure, zero-delay-tolerance experience. If you want a relaxed, chilled-out set of games, there is nothing wrong with that. I respect it fully. I certainly prefer to cast that way. But it will never happen on twitch.tv/naturalselection2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    A zero-delay-tolerance is unrealistic if you want to be a professional caster. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good idea to minimize the downtimes between the games of a match. But delays will happen. Show some flexibility, that's what other live commentators have to do too. I remember a professional football match where one of the goals had to be replaced - which took an hour. The live TV commentators kept going the entire time. If you abort the stream every time something takes 30 seconds longer than expected you'll only lose viewers.
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
    Anything less than 15min break between is probably not going to cut it in the long run. If you truly want to show high quality games, you'll let the players have their potty break, brief discussion about last round or vent out if the game went real bad. This becomes especially important when this game starts to get the first high level teams going.

    This does not mean that the 15min is used everytime, the game might aswell start 5min 9 of 10 times, but teams need to know they have a chance for small break before someone starts breathing on their necks, especially if its someone who's irrelevant to the match.
  • LutherLuther Join Date: 2012-05-29 Member: 152714Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1979811:date=Sep 18 2012, 03:15 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 18 2012, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also don't want to watch commercials during Monday night football, but when you're watching something live, you can't always expect constant action.

    If we prerecorded the matches, and aired them at a later time, then this whole issue becomes completely moot. What we're discussing is live streams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    If you look at how wasabie cup was broadcasted live it was perfect in my opinion as a viewer, lots of stuff going on and not a blank empty screen with a 10 or 15 minute delay for something to happen, plus most people change the channel when a commercial comes on to fill in the down time, that same thing will happen here but worse.

    plus we all know ###### happens its just how it is, but what we are talking about is scripted pre programmed stops that take ages.

    If you plan on doing a tournament and expect the viewers to have these huge breaks even if one of the match's is only 5 minutes long then you are going to lose a lot of viewers quickly.


    when eve online does its huge tournament once a year they record all early bracket match's and upload them to youtube, and the only parts that are streamed live are usually the final's or the last couple brackets.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1979868:date=Sep 19 2012, 09:41 AM:name=Luther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luther @ Sep 19 2012, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you look at how wasabie cup was broadcasted live it was perfect in my opinion as a viewer, lots of stuff going on and not a blank empty screen with a 10 or 15 minute delay for something to happen, plus most people change the channel when a commercial comes on to fill in the down time, that same thing will happen here but worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yea, props to the wasabi cup definitely.

    However I think this is something that depends on the solidity of the game and game community, and not something that should be accepted as an expected norm. In SC2, commercial breaks are widely accepted and in some cases where viewer goodwill is high enough, they are demanded. Everyone understands that ads allow streams to run for free, which is going to be a material factor if and when we start seeing money prizes and people taking up ns2 casting as a job.

    If you don't want to see commercials, get an adblock. However its important for ns2 viewers new to streams to start understanding that ad-free, back-to-back game streams arn't realistic unless you're paying some premium subscription.
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I have to agree that the Wasabi cup was handled very well. The issue with the rule confusions near the end was handled quickly and honestly I don't think anyone was overly concerned as we were all there just to have some fun.

    But that doesn't mean there aren't some areas we can improve on. I think the sentiment that these beta tournaments are great educational experiences for both the community and the casters is dead on. But I think some of us, I at least myself, are trying to point a finger at where we ultimately want to go with a more professional competitive community.

    Take a look at the rules list for eSports like CALNS, or CAL:CS:GO, or anything else really. Then compare that to what we did this last weekend.

    Now, just to be clear, I'm not trying to knock on the excellent job Wasabi did putting together this event. But I think we all want to turn this into something much bigger, later on.
  • LutherLuther Join Date: 2012-05-29 Member: 152714Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1979874:date=Sep 18 2012, 04:57 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 18 2012, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea, props to the wasabi cup definitely.

    However I think this is something that depends on the solidity of the game and game community, and not something that should be accepted as an expected norm. In SC2, commercial breaks are widely accepted and in some cases where viewer goodwill is high enough, they are demanded. Everyone understands that ads allow streams to run for free, which is going to be a material factor if and when we start seeing money prizes and people taking up ns2 casting as a job.

    If you don't want to see commercials, get an adblock. However its important for ns2 viewers new to streams to start understanding that ad-free, back-to-back game streams arn't realistic unless you're paying some premium subscription.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I have no issues with commercials just complete and utter nothing.

    for example, you watch a 5 minute match then the guys go ok everyone we are taking a 15 minute break, feed stops, comes back 10 minute match then 15 minute break feed stops. crap like that isn't going to work.

    when wasabie was done they streamed a 5 minute match then hugh filled in the 5 minute down time with great information and replys that where well explained and talked about then match started, there was never any downtime at all or commercials.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited September 2012
    I just went and re-read the thread again, and the more I do, the more it sounds like we're all on the same page but just misunderstanding each other.

    There are degrees of flexibility that can be afforded to teams in the case of disputes over rules. Different settings will have different degrees of flexibility. Casual nightly scrims will obviously have a very high degree of flexibility - If there is a disagreement, the teams can sit around for hours debating the finer points. That's cool, no one loses out.

    Other types of match will have different degrees of time pressure. This can be represented visually, like so:

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/OFi4S.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    As the time pressure on the event increases, the time available to solve disputes <i><b>live</b></i> decreases. The twitch.tv/naturalselection2 stream is being set up to be at the very peak of the 'time pressure' axis. The time pressure increases, because twitch.tv/naturalselection2 is being set up for big, big shows.

    This is were we come back to my desire to build a stage for your play. You can always choose to stay off the stage, and you will always have other outlets to show off your play. Other streams, other channels, wherever. But when you step up on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, I want you to feel like you are kings of the gaming universe. Big production values, lots of casters, huge viewer numbers, proper prizes, all sorts of stuff.

    Visually, this can be represented by replacing the y-axis from the time pressure graph with the 'production value' of the stream.

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/DYaBV.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    The part where many competitive players seem to be deciding to skewer me, is the 'rule of law' during a tournament. The crucial word in the graphs above is 'live.' Solving the dispute <b><i>live</i></b>. The rules must be respected, this is not negotiable. But during a highly time sensitive production, choices must be made. Let's look at a hypothetical example:

    Suppose two teams are playing on twitch.tv/naturalselection2. They are 120 seconds away from being due to start a round. Team X brings in a player that team Y believes is illegal. The admins begin to discuss the rules with the team captains, behind the scenes. 120 seconds pass, and the casters go into 'filler mode' - Telling the audience there is a dispute, and running replays, stats, trailers, and generally joking around. After five minutes, the teams and admins still cannot agree on the rules. The teams/admins/casters are faced with a choice.

    Option 1. Continue to attempt to resolve the dispute while the stream is live.

    Option 2. Agree to decide on the violation of the rules after the stream ends. If a winning team is found to have broken the rules, they are penalised, disqualified, titles revoked, etc.

    Depending on the time pressure of a stream, a choice can be made. There may be intermediate options. In the case of twitch.tv/naturalselection2, the time pressure is at maximum. <b>Option 1</b> is not appropriate. <b>Option 2 </b>must be chosen. This can be represented visually like so:

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/X8ltj.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    It is the purpose of my very forceful comments on this matter to make the point that Option 2 is the only option for twitch.tv/naturalselection2. I believe I was interpreted as meaning that rules were not important. I hope this example clarifies that, because it is certainly not true. The rules must be enforced, and it is not the place of anyone but tournament organisers (e.g. ENSL) to set those rules. It is the time at which disputes are handled that is in question.

    This leads us to a final graph. If the time pressure is so high, and the pressure to quickly obey rules is so great, then there is another element to consider: Setting solid, clear, and agreed upon rules before the event starts.

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/O5kFA.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Which is why it is so exciting that we are having these arguments now. They are great arguments - Because we are going to get better at forming these rules, and making them work well. Just like my terrible casting voice and camera work slowly improve with every match, tournament organisers will get better and better at predicting disputes and setting rules to deal with them.

    The final question I should answer is, 'Why take twitch.tv/naturalselection2 in this direction? Why not just leave it as a casual channel where we can all chill out?' This a very valid question. The answer is many-faceted: Anyone can create a channel that is more 'chilled out.' Many people will be much better than UWE at creating awesome, less highly strung channels. What the official stream can do well is create opportunities for you to play 'on the big stage.' I am thinking big. Very big. Huge audiences, big prizes, partnerships with all sorts of awesome organisations, all designed to do one thing:

    Put you, and your play, up in lights, on a scale you never thought possible.

    The size, attention, viewership, prize pools and 'IRL' events that I am trying to organise require extremely high production values, and a very highly strung operation. This is why twitch.tv/naturalselection2 will operate under high-time-pressure rules. So that if you want to play on a huge stage: That stage is there for you.

    Together, over the coming weeks and months, we will all get better at this. We will get better at working together, setting rules, handling stream-stress, and being 'on time.' I am so unbelievably excited at some of the things we will unveil over the coming weeks, some of the discussions we have had with partners, the possibilities for your play.

    I hope this post cleared up my position!
  • SmaugSmaug Join Date: 2011-05-23 Member: 100283Members
    So the moral of the story is that casters and referees should be two separate entities, and not one?
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    I've been watching this drama for a while without taking part of it even though i was in the center of all the incidents that are related to this discussion. I think all of us have very valid points in this discussion and all of us want the best for the game. Each of us just has their own perspective to judge things from. The recent post from Strayan makes it easier to see his perspective on this. Now I can see why it is good for all of us to try our best to keep the downtime short and games going. I'm happy he also sees why it is important for us to solve all the rule issues etc.

    I think all of us, players, casters and admins need to step up and be more professional to get the NS2 competitive scene to higher level. And it would be great if we did this together in a constructive way.

    I think the focus now should be defining an easy to understand fair set of rules based on the experience gained from the previous cups, which allow us to play the games with minimized downtimes and post game drama to offer awesome games for the players and great moments to the viewers.
  • supsusupsu Join Date: 2012-04-24 Member: 151023Members, Squad Five Blue
    I think that if there's a chance for ns2 to really become something bigger than some weekend cups then all the players will most likely agree upon strict schedules, 15 minutes break times, no rule debates when live etc. But it needs to be made clear that there actually is one and most likely everyone are willing to do it the way twitch.tv/naturalselection2 wants it; I honestly couldn't care less if I had to play 6 or 10 hours straight ns2 or not restart the game because some of our guy dropped at the 10 min mark if there'll really be something fighting for. But once it comes down to that that there's actually a tournament going on with a prize pool the game and teams should come first before stream but when it's just for glory I couldn't really care less.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1979834:date=Sep 19 2012, 08:51 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Sep 19 2012, 08:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is, that's none of your business, casters aren't referees. In the end any commentator or caster is just an observer and a guest.
    You can always decide to stop casting, if the teams are taking too long or when the tourney turns out to be badly organized.
    That's completely fine, but it's all you can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Your attitude is extremely offensive. It belittles the work of many people. It will take cooler-headed people many hours to convince me to let anyone with that attitude anywhere near twitch.tv/naturalselection2.

    <!--quoteo(post=1979891:date=Sep 19 2012, 10:28 AM:name=Smaug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smaug @ Sep 19 2012, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the moral of the story is that casters and referees should be two separate entities, and not one?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Smaug, you are trying to break down a nuanced argument into a sound bite. Bad, bad Smaug. Also, there is not enough crazy Cydweithrediad play in my life right now.

    <!--quoteo(post=1979894:date=Sep 19 2012, 10:35 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Sep 19 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The recent post from Strayan makes it easier to see his perspective on this. Now I can see why it is good for all of us to try our best to keep the downtime short and games going. I'm happy he also sees why it is important for us to solve all the rule issues etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thank you Zeikko. It's going to be a really exciting few weeks!
This discussion has been closed.