Shotgun Revision(w/graph)
Bitey
Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151622Members, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151622Members, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
<div class="IPBDescription">To set the weapon in line with others</div>I've been playing for roughly 300hrs now of gameplay with several small pugs, scrims, and matches under my belt now and in each situation I've noticed among the weapons shotgun seems to be the best bet in every scenario. I've been pondering what makes the shotgun so much better, and for the most point it boils down to a few points of the weapon itself:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/DOOJO.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Other important data:
<a href="http://imgur.com/a/bzdf4" target="_blank">http://imgur.com/a/bzdf4</a>
DPS chart shotty v AR
<a href="http://imgur.com/4GFB9" target="_blank">http://imgur.com/4GFB9</a>
1. As a gun of real life situations, a shotgun is a hard counter to an alien/animal who utilize a melee attacks. The weapon has its most effective stopping power at close range, which most alien lifeforms also want to close distance to. It also fires a rather larger hitzone compared to an AR/pistol, making it slightly easier to use when aliens choose to attack.
2. As far as damages go, the lvl0Shotgun can OHK(1shot) skulks even with the carapace upgrade. This allows a skilled-powerful user to solo large cluster of alien-skulk groups with high rates of success, and hive spawncamp very effectively. This stacks when you use more then one marine to make a shotgun hive push
3. In terms of overall damage, the shotgun holds nearly 2.36x more damage per clip then an AR and most of the other weapons. This becomes a major factor in determining large fights-attacks on locations. As a weapon, the total amount of damage exceeds all others while still being able to maintain a strong ability to frag enemies, making flamethrowers/GL less effective in many engagements.
4. An AR requires tracking, which is hard to control on a fast moving skilled skulk player. Shotguns require twitch/reaction shooting which is slightly easier on speedy targets. With an AR to maintain damage at the highest level, you must track an opponents movements directly. A shotgun only needs to wait for the target to lineup once and fire away to maintain max damage. Tracking helps, but the amount of effort to wield the shotty is significantly less then the rest of the weapons**
__________
While I could likely elaborate on the list more, I'd like to just stop here and offer varying different solutions to quell the slight OP nature of the shotgun:
Quick-fixz:
1. A simple fix to leave the skills intact, is the lower the total number of bullets in a full clip from 8 by 2-3 shells. This still leaves the shotty as a powerful OHK machine, but tampers off its ability to solo lock down a hive.
2. Lesson the damage per pellet. This would make the gun less effective in early game, and give it a more gradual improvement like other weapons. Due to it's massive damage, 10% per level is a massive boost in its fragging power.
3. Change the weapon back to light damage, while this lessons it's power against fades it still leaves it as a skulk ripper.
Other note:
Buff Lerk HP, so that base lerk does not get OHK by a lvl0 shotty. I didn't mark that on the charts, but it's pretty lame to see a Lerk can be fragged with one blast. 30 res wasted by 20 res, easier to use tool.
**GL's require timing-prediction due to the long fuse and slower travel time. Along with a long reload timer
Flamers require tracking ability, close distance, and JETPACKS to maintain the fire damage and deny the attacking abilities aliens effectively.
AR/pistol requires tracking to maintain maximum dps any miss means you are one step closer to having to reload.
*edit* Link on img showcases where the data was acquired. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117569" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117569</a>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/DOOJO.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Other important data:
<a href="http://imgur.com/a/bzdf4" target="_blank">http://imgur.com/a/bzdf4</a>
DPS chart shotty v AR
<a href="http://imgur.com/4GFB9" target="_blank">http://imgur.com/4GFB9</a>
1. As a gun of real life situations, a shotgun is a hard counter to an alien/animal who utilize a melee attacks. The weapon has its most effective stopping power at close range, which most alien lifeforms also want to close distance to. It also fires a rather larger hitzone compared to an AR/pistol, making it slightly easier to use when aliens choose to attack.
2. As far as damages go, the lvl0Shotgun can OHK(1shot) skulks even with the carapace upgrade. This allows a skilled-powerful user to solo large cluster of alien-skulk groups with high rates of success, and hive spawncamp very effectively. This stacks when you use more then one marine to make a shotgun hive push
3. In terms of overall damage, the shotgun holds nearly 2.36x more damage per clip then an AR and most of the other weapons. This becomes a major factor in determining large fights-attacks on locations. As a weapon, the total amount of damage exceeds all others while still being able to maintain a strong ability to frag enemies, making flamethrowers/GL less effective in many engagements.
4. An AR requires tracking, which is hard to control on a fast moving skilled skulk player. Shotguns require twitch/reaction shooting which is slightly easier on speedy targets. With an AR to maintain damage at the highest level, you must track an opponents movements directly. A shotgun only needs to wait for the target to lineup once and fire away to maintain max damage. Tracking helps, but the amount of effort to wield the shotty is significantly less then the rest of the weapons**
__________
While I could likely elaborate on the list more, I'd like to just stop here and offer varying different solutions to quell the slight OP nature of the shotgun:
Quick-fixz:
1. A simple fix to leave the skills intact, is the lower the total number of bullets in a full clip from 8 by 2-3 shells. This still leaves the shotty as a powerful OHK machine, but tampers off its ability to solo lock down a hive.
2. Lesson the damage per pellet. This would make the gun less effective in early game, and give it a more gradual improvement like other weapons. Due to it's massive damage, 10% per level is a massive boost in its fragging power.
3. Change the weapon back to light damage, while this lessons it's power against fades it still leaves it as a skulk ripper.
Other note:
Buff Lerk HP, so that base lerk does not get OHK by a lvl0 shotty. I didn't mark that on the charts, but it's pretty lame to see a Lerk can be fragged with one blast. 30 res wasted by 20 res, easier to use tool.
**GL's require timing-prediction due to the long fuse and slower travel time. Along with a long reload timer
Flamers require tracking ability, close distance, and JETPACKS to maintain the fire damage and deny the attacking abilities aliens effectively.
AR/pistol requires tracking to maintain maximum dps any miss means you are one step closer to having to reload.
*edit* Link on img showcases where the data was acquired. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117569" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117569</a>
Comments
A shotgun can put out 8 shots (1360dmg@w0) in ~15 seconds counting its reload time. This is ~91dps.
An LMG can put out 1 mag (500dmg@w0) in ~5 seconds counting its reload time. This is ~100 dps.
Perhaps there is more to consider than just the information you've put into your charts. Things like reload time, reload mechanics, shooting mechanics, tres and pres costs all matter. You've covered some of these in your analysis. You've also left quite a few of them out.
You also blatantly ignore the shotgun's spread. It's a pretty telling omission. In fact, this whole thread seems to highlight the shotgun's advantages (8 shell "mag" and high per-shot damage) while completely ignoring the shotgun's weakness (high reload time, pellet spread, short range, pres and tres cost).
IE: Let's see a chart of shotgun vs lmg damage with respect to cost. Or a line plot of average shotgun vs lmg damage over a distance x-axis. Notably ignored.
Biggest problem with the shotgun is not the shotgun, but rather the size of the skulk... At point blank range the skulk model is so big that its really not hard to aim at with the shotgun. That combined with wallhop lacking in providing a true skill based mechanic to rival aiming makings playing skulk (and somewhat aliens in general) pretty frustrating.
A graph showing damages doesnt really illustrate the issue of why shotguns are better, though.. It doesn't account for the nature of the shotgun of being full damage up close and less as you increase in range.
A better graph would be to see successful kills based on each weapon.
But anyways, limiting the ammo still wont fix the issue. And the issue is the trade off of using a shotgun is not enough, as you seem to have already discovered.
So do what those other shotgun threads suggest (And what i have pushed for internally) and increase the spread of the shotgun, increase the amount of pellets (so you hit what you aim at finally instead of deadzones) and adjust the damage per pellet accordingly, based on the ratio of difference.
This would polarize the shotgun so it's role was much more obvious and specialized instead of the cheap, obviously choice that it is.
It also increases the skill required to kill with it as often. Instead of 8 pellets grouped together, killing something at medium distance, you'd have 15 or 20 (dmg adjusted) spread out widely, so you'd definitely want to wait until you had that perfect shot, timing it just right.
I think that'd be the only change needed to solve the issue you're seeing, which is simply a lack of proper role implementation.
EDIT: slightly ninja'd by gorgeous.. but he's right.
Just use proper large spread and wala you dont need any artificial, hidden mechanics.
See here for a good thread/<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119845&st=60&p=1959024&#entry1959024" target="_blank">good spreads.</a>
Just use proper large spread and wala you dont need any artificial, hidden mechanics.
See here for a good thread/<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119845&st=60&p=1959024&#entry1959024" target="_blank">good spreads.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesnt the lerk spikes have that mechanic? I was testing it in a server and it defiantly seemed to (was testing it vs exos so pretty much no spikes missed at any range). Increasing the spread gives the same effect though.
however, i can think of something that might be a bit more convincing for your purpose: ns2stats.org has statistics showing how long you select a weapon and how many kills you get with it (in proportion). it might not be compareable with a gl or flamer (due to their purpose on the field and the fact that they appear much later in the game) but maybe with the rifle and the pistol, in terms of kills-by-weapon divided by selected-weapon.
That would be a massive, massive buff to Fades and especially the new Onos. Not really a viable option.
Lerks have huge spread and damage fall offs. The lerk loses far more damage from the spread than it does from the fall off. The fall off damage starts at 9 at 2-distance and goes to 7 at 9-distance. It's rather negligible when the spread is causing you to miss so much more.
And light damage shotguns are completely nonviable given how the game has been balanced over the past 10 or 20 patches.
With regards to what Laosh'Ra said about NS2 pub stats, though I feel they're rather irrelevant to discussing balance, you can look at mine here:
<a href="http://ns2stats.org/player/player/705" target="_blank">http://ns2stats.org/player/player/705</a>
Click "More Filters" then select all builds and servers and then change the date to August 12th. Then click the "Marine" tab.
You'll see that I spend 34% of my time as shotgun and have 47.5% of my kills with it. By comparison, I spend 48% of my time as lmg+pistol and have ~51% of my kills with them.
That's what I expect from paying 20 pres for shotguns. The shotgun has to be powerful, or it has to be much cheaper. If people want the shotgun to be equal to the LMG then the cost needs to be lower (5-10 pres). Also, if you nerf shotguns then you'll have to nerf leap skulks and fades because you won't be killing these without powerful/expensive shotguns.
Do you think the 8% is that much of an issue? Id say its more with being able to miss quite alot of the pellets and still 1 shot them thats the problem. Effectively* you only need to be 73% accurate with the shotty to 1hit a cara skulk, 50% for a non cara and thats with weapon 0. With weapon 3 its 60% for cara and 36% for a non cara skulk.
* Based off the shotgun doing 190 base damage, a cara skulk having 140 hp and a non cara skulk having 90. Weapon 0 implies that if more 50 damage misses you wont 1 shot him, so that 5/19 miss => 14/19 hit which is 73%.
thats my problem, where before it was 100% dead on shot now its less than 75%.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->shotgun doing 190 base damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's 170 base.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a cara skulk having 140 hp<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it has 70 health and 30 armor (=60 hp against normal-type) which is 130 hp.
so that translates to 52.9% and 76.4% with cara (minor difference, but i couldn't resist... damn what am i actually doing here) 40.7% and 58.8% on level 3.
at least for w0, i think 23.5% more is quite a difference though, considering you sometimes don't even hit at all.
* Based off the shotgun doing 190 base damage, a cara skulk having 140 hp and a non cara skulk having 90. Weapon 0 implies that if more 50 damage misses you wont 1 shot him, so that 5/19 miss => 14/19 hit which is 73%.
thats my problem, where before it was 100% dead on shot now its less than 75%.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm I think they should balance it so 100% of shot at w0 kills a skulk, with cara need w1 and weapon upgrades after than just allow for inaccuracy.
100% Accuracy doesn't mean 100% of pellets hitting. Most of the time, even with a perfect 100% shot, you will still miss some pellets. That's why it's balanced around 60% of pellets landing. That is a reasonable amount.
Thats how it was precara nerf and the shotty was fine then tbh...
What do you mean by this?
Cara was originally 30 armor. It was bumped to 50 armor and given a speed reduction for a few patches (5-10?) and then reverted back to 30. 50 armor skulks were widely regarded as "OP as ######" in both competitive and pub communities.
Cara was originally 30 armor. It was bumped to 50 armor and given a speed reduction for a few patches (5-10?) and then reverted back to 30. 50 armor skulks were widely regarded as "OP as ######" in both competitive and pub communities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were OP as ######, if you didnt have a shotgun. And the idea being that being forced to take a 20 res shotty to counter them was a bit broken. It was that the cara was too good vs rifle and other weapons than it being too good vs the shotty
Still only 10Tres anyways, if you bump the Pres.
Also, for being more "in-line" I think the rifle could use a very slight buff, too.
I would be completely fine with shifting the shotties damage down a bit and adding the HMG in for marines, problem is that gives marines yet another option to stand at the entrance to a hive and blast it to pieces without having to get anywhere near whatever defences are set up inside. Though I'd say its more a problem with how vulnerable the chair spots are on most maps than it is to do with the actual weapon mechanics.
Carapace fade has 100 armor + 250 health = 450 effective health.
A level 2 shotgun does 170x1.2 = 204 damage if you hit all 10 pellets.
Thus, your assertion that you can one hit kill a carapace fade with a lvl 2 shotgun is unequivocally wrong. It takes a minimum of 3 shots with any weapon level.
<!--quoteo(post=1978605:date=Sep 16 2012, 12:03 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 16 2012, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You also blatantly ignore the shotgun's spread. It's a pretty telling omission. <!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>In fact, this whole thread <u>seems to highlight the shotgun's advantages</u></b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> (8 shell "mag" and high per-shot damage) while completely ignoring the shotgun's weakness (high reload time, pellet spread, short range, pres and tres cost).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bitey, I think I speak for everyone when I say that your analysis is very in-depth and worth the read. In the future, you may want to cogitate on the benefit of using more visual, as opposed to textual information, as to avoid confusing others.