<!--quoteo(post=1976856:date=Sep 12 2012, 09:47 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Sep 12 2012, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea i hate the whole give every upgrade a downside aswell. Maines dont get slower with armor 1/2/3 wep1/2/3 why should aliens?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Asymmetry. Also, you choose what upgrades you take. Marines don't get to choose when the Commander decides to research those things. Alien upgrades also aren't persistent, but Marine upgrades are. In addition, some Alien upgrades don't actually have downsides, like Regeneration and Adrenaline.
Marine downsides are a side effect of their weapons. Shotguns are poor at mid-long range, Grenade Launchers are poor at close-mid range, and Flamethrower sucks at all ranges.
<!--quoteo(post=1976860:date=Sep 12 2012, 11:54 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 12 2012, 11:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Asymmetry. Also, you choose what upgrades you take. Marines don't get to choose when the Commander decides to research those things. Alien upgrades also aren't persistent, but Marine upgrades are. In addition, some Alien upgrades don't actually have downsides, like Regeneration and Adrenaline.
Marine downsides are a side effect of their weapons. Shotguns are poor at mid-long range, Grenade Launchers are poor at close-mid range, and Flamethrower sucks at all ranges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good thing aliens are also poor at mid-long range, else Shotguns might be balanced in some situations.
Marines downside effect that your claiming are their weapons. Alien evolutions are the asymmetric side for marine weapons. So bringing up marine weapons is irrelevant when discussion upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1976870:date=Sep 12 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 12 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good thing aliens are also poor at mid-long range, else Shotguns might be balanced in some situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens are still fast, both in attacking and movement. Shotgun fires slowly. Most lifeforms can kill a Marine armed with a SG in the time it takes to fire it 1-2 times, and the two of those that might have problems dodging because of their hitbox (Fade/Onos) can easily survive the first shot. Lerks and Gorge's Hydras can outrange them (Although Gorges should run).
Now if it's a matter of a pack of 3+ Marines totting Shotguns who can gun down a Fade before they can get more than a hit in, then you should probably reconsider attacking a force that outnumbers you when you're all by your lonesome and go find some friends to support.
Besides, the Shotgun's lack of range is an issue in a lot of cases. For instance, it's kind of hard to snipe the Hive from a room or two away with a Shotgun. You actually have to get close and expose yourself to danger instead of being able to hang back and pepper structures/lifeforms from relative safety.
<!--quoteo(post=1976872:date=Sep 12 2012, 10:24 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Sep 12 2012, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976872"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines downside effect that your claiming are their weapons. Alien evolutions are the asymmetric side for marine weapons. So bringing up marine weapons is irrelevant when discussion upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You asked why Marines don't get downsides from their upgrades but some Alien upgrades do. I explained why. Both sides have things that are purely upgrades, sidegrades, and things that are still upgrades despite having some downsides.
Edit: But here's a for-instance. I don't know if it's the same now because changes were made, but Carapace gave an Onos 600 bonus armor. That's more than an a3 Exo has <i>total.</i> If it had no downside, it would be kind of...stupid. Onos would be an invulnerable wrecking ball, especially when paired with Bone Armor.
celerity was meant to replace hive teleport because the devs thought it was too symmetrical with phase gate tech
This was flawed from the get go, it only took a little thought to realize it was a stupid idea, yet the devs pushed forward in their typical whimsical fashion
Celerity fulfilled its new role of getting aliens from hive to hive faster ... yet it also alowed them to travel all over the map aswell, marines had these insanely fast skulks come in from nowhere and enter close range before they even had time to fire at them. So UWE nerfed celerity to more common sense levels ... yet they still were obsessed with making celerity the replacement of hive teleport
So here we are today, with celerity that will turn off when in combat, because its meant for only getting you from hive to hive in the eyes of UWE
I think part of it has to do with the 58% win rate of aliens. I couldn't say as to whether or not the Devs favor the downsides, nor the full scope of the metrics they use to make balance decisions, but I can see why they would hesitate to remove such downsides, and why they would want to see the effect of decreasing their effectiveness.
I agree though that I don't like the downsides, and my gut reaction is that they should be removed. That said, aliens seem to be doing quite well with them, so outside of my not liking them, I don't really know that they're game breaking.
Really hate that Cara slow down though. Makes me QQ as a Lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=1977041:date=Sep 13 2012, 10:43 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 13 2012, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977041"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think part of it has to do with the 58% win rate of aliens. I couldn't say as to whether or not the Devs favor the downsides, nor the full scope of the metrics they use to make balance decisions, but I can see why they would hesitate to remove such downsides, and why they would want to see the effect of decreasing their effectiveness.
I agree though that I don't like the downsides, and my gut reaction is that they should be removed. That said, aliens seem to be doing quite well with them, so outside of my not liking them, I don't really know that they're game breaking.
Really hate that Cara slow down though. Makes me QQ as a Lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 58% win rate for aliens is in part due to poor hit reg (and late game performance). It is my belief that the reason why carapace has a slow down and celerity stops working the second combat starts is to give marines an easier target to hit. If carapace didn't have it's slowdown and celerity worked at all times, I can bet that the forums will be flooded with aliens are too hard to hit and that the hit reg is terrible. It's actually rather ingenious of them to "balance" the game this way because they know the game's hit reg and performance isn't up to snuff for a game near release. But what this does is ruin the upgrades for aliens. Let me explain:
Carapace is a false upgrade for a skulk on one hive, because what the slowdown does is lets the marines hit you with more bullets, so the extra armor awarded by the carapace is effectively negligible 'cause your taking more hits than you would have without carapace. Hence why crag is no longer taken first hive in most games. You need leap to make carapace work.
Celerity is a first hive upgrade and then completely ditched upon second hive- leap and adren. Anyone with any sense and knows how to play skulk knows adren is superior to celerity. While you might arrive at your destination 3-5 seconds faster than another skulk without adren, your combat performance is a lot worse than that skulk that does have adren. 2 leaps with celerity and your out of energy, and you move just as fast as a skulk with adren in combat. Whereas a skulk with adren can leap nearly continuously, effectively evading marine fire better and still have enough energy to bite. So what sounds better? 5 seconds faster or better combat utility? I rather guarantee a kill than rush to my death faster.
The people arguing that celerity is a tool for map movement and only that. Than what is sprint doing if marines have portals (or vice versa)?
You can tell a game is balanced regardless of hitreg. Don't forget they dumbed down marine movement to make sure skulks have an easier time too. Also, hitreg is bad regardless of movement speed. It will almost always take 20-30 shots to kill a skulk regardless of how fast the skulk moves. Even a crouch walking marine will have 50% of gorge spits go right through him. You do have a point though as with perfect hitreg marines would be overpowered, it's way too easy to hit skulks right now. They'll probably have to reduce their size or something.
<!--quoteo(post=1977085:date=Sep 13 2012, 12:12 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 13 2012, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can tell a game is balanced regardless of hitreg. Don't forget they dumbed down marine movement to make sure skulks have an easier time too. Also, hitreg is bad regardless of movement speed. It will almost always take 20-30 shots to kill a skulk regardless of how fast the skulk moves. Even a crouch walking marine will have 50% of gorge spits go right through him. You do have a point though as with perfect hitreg marines would be overpowered, it's way too easy to hit skulks right now. They'll probably have to reduce their size or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm all for improving marine movement as long as sprint is removed. It's also pretty damn annoying sending marines flying just because they jumped too.
Yes, hitreg is bad, but a faster moving player is harder to hit than one that is slower. So while it will always take 20-30 shots to kill a skulk no matter how fast they are moving, a faster skulk will live longer because he took less consecutive shots. Hence why I always go adren/carapace on a skulk because I'm insanely much more evasive leaping around my target and biting them during reloads, I'd often leave the fight with 60 health left (while celerity/carapace skulks are so laughably easy to kill).
<!--quoteo(post=1977079:date=Sep 13 2012, 11:53 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Sep 13 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 58% win rate for aliens is in part due to poor hit reg (and late game performance). It is my belief that the reason why carapace has a slow down and celerity stops working the second combat starts is to give marines an easier target to hit. If carapace didn't have it's slowdown and celerity worked at all times, I can bet that the forums will be flooded with aliens are too hard to hit and that the hit reg is terrible. It's actually rather ingenious of them to "balance" the game this way because they know the game's hit reg and performance isn't up to snuff for a game near release. But what this does is ruin the upgrades for aliens. Let me explain:
Carapace is a false upgrade for a skulk on one hive, because what the slowdown does is lets the marines hit you with more bullets, so the extra armor awarded by the carapace is effectively negligible 'cause your taking more hits than you would have without carapace. Hence why crag is no longer taken first hive in most games. You need leap to make carapace work.
Celerity is a first hive upgrade and then completely ditched upon second hive- leap and adren. Anyone with any sense and knows how to play skulk knows adren is superior to celerity. While you might arrive at your destination 3-5 seconds faster than another skulk without adren, your combat performance is a lot worse than that skulk that does have adren. 2 leaps with celerity and your out of energy, and you move just as fast as a skulk with adren in combat. Whereas a skulk with adren can leap nearly continuously, effectively evading marine fire better and still have enough energy to bite. So what sounds better? 5 seconds faster or better combat utility? I rather guarantee a kill than rush to my death faster.
The people arguing that celerity is a tool for map movement and only that. Than what is sprint doing if marines have portals (or vice versa)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no the 58% winrate is due to fades. *edit* and power nodes
<!--quoteo(post=1977221:date=Sep 13 2012, 05:20 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Sep 13 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no the 58% winrate is due to fades. *edit* and power nodes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can go 20-3 as a skulk. I have serious doubts its just fades (or power nodes).
<!--quoteo(post=1977315:date=Sep 13 2012, 07:42 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Sep 13 2012, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1977315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can go 20-3 as a skulk. I have serious doubts its just fades (or power nodes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We all can. Pubstomping is not the way to diagnose our problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1976872:date=Sep 13 2012, 01:24 AM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Sep 13 2012, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976872"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines downside effect that your claiming are their weapons. Alien evolutions are the asymmetric side for marine weapons. So bringing up marine weapons is irrelevant when discussion upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lifeforms seem like the better analog to marine weapons to me.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
i agree with OP.
Why nerf the things that are fun to the point that they aren't fun anymore.
Also these are upgrades, the alien commander payed quite a bit of res to research the hive, the building, and then the ability. THE TRADE OFF IS THAT YOU PAYED FOR IT :)
Imagine if weapon upgrades for marines made you reload slower, or armor upgrades made you move slower.... that would not be fun.
Why nerf the things that are fun to the point that they aren't fun anymore.
Also these are upgrades, the alien commander payed quite a bit of res to research the hive, the building, and then the ability. THE TRADE OFF IS THAT YOU PAYED FOR IT :)
Imagine if weapon upgrades for marines made you reload slower, or armor upgrades made you move slower.... that would not be fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines need more tres to research their stuff, and all of it comes with at least one downside except maybe the Jetpack. Shotgun is useless at mid-long range, Grenade Launcher is terrible at close-mid range, Flamethrower is terrible vs Lifeforms, Mines are awful against anything that isn't a Skulk, and the Exos literally have about five times more downsides than upsides.
NS2 is a game about tradeoffs, not upgrades.
And actually, all of the purchasable Marine weapons do reload slower <i>and</i> make the Marine move more slowly than the LMG.
They're very different considering this is a post from six months ago.
Carapace no longer slows. Both regen and celerity are different than they were back then, but retain in-combat (ie deal damage or take damage) penalties. I'm not sure on the exact times anymore, but it takes a few seconds of neither dealing damage nor receiving damage for celerity and regen to kick in. Camouflage also works like this.
They're very different considering this is a post from six months ago.
Carapace no longer slows. Both regen and celerity are different than they were back then, but retain in-combat (ie deal damage or take damage) penalties. I'm not sure on the exact times anymore, but it takes a few seconds of neither dealing damage nor receiving damage for celerity and regen to kick in. Camouflage also works like this.
Yes I figured they changed. I did search, but found nothing. I figured it was safer necro'ing an old thread than ranting on the forums. Thanks for the clarification.
Comments
Celerity and FD or silence and regen, always.
Asymmetry. Also, you choose what upgrades you take. Marines don't get to choose when the Commander decides to research those things. Alien upgrades also aren't persistent, but Marine upgrades are. In addition, some Alien upgrades don't actually have downsides, like Regeneration and Adrenaline.
Marine downsides are a side effect of their weapons. Shotguns are poor at mid-long range, Grenade Launchers are poor at close-mid range, and Flamethrower sucks at all ranges.
Marine downsides are a side effect of their weapons. Shotguns are poor at mid-long range, Grenade Launchers are poor at close-mid range, and Flamethrower sucks at all ranges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good thing aliens are also poor at mid-long range, else Shotguns might be balanced in some situations.
Aliens are still fast, both in attacking and movement. Shotgun fires slowly. Most lifeforms can kill a Marine armed with a SG in the time it takes to fire it 1-2 times, and the two of those that might have problems dodging because of their hitbox (Fade/Onos) can easily survive the first shot. Lerks and Gorge's Hydras can outrange them (Although Gorges should run).
Now if it's a matter of a pack of 3+ Marines totting Shotguns who can gun down a Fade before they can get more than a hit in, then you should probably reconsider attacking a force that outnumbers you when you're all by your lonesome and go find some friends to support.
Besides, the Shotgun's lack of range is an issue in a lot of cases. For instance, it's kind of hard to snipe the Hive from a room or two away with a Shotgun. You actually have to get close and expose yourself to danger instead of being able to hang back and pepper structures/lifeforms from relative safety.
<!--quoteo(post=1976872:date=Sep 12 2012, 10:24 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Sep 12 2012, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976872"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines downside effect that your claiming are their weapons. Alien evolutions are the asymmetric side for marine weapons. So bringing up marine weapons is irrelevant when discussion upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You asked why Marines don't get downsides from their upgrades but some Alien upgrades do. I explained why. Both sides have things that are purely upgrades, sidegrades, and things that are still upgrades despite having some downsides.
Edit: But here's a for-instance. I don't know if it's the same now because changes were made, but Carapace gave an Onos 600 bonus armor. That's more than an a3 Exo has <i>total.</i> If it had no downside, it would be kind of...stupid. Onos would be an invulnerable wrecking ball, especially when paired with Bone Armor.
This was flawed from the get go, it only took a little thought to realize it was a stupid idea, yet the devs pushed forward in their typical whimsical fashion
Celerity fulfilled its new role of getting aliens from hive to hive faster ... yet it also alowed them to travel all over the map aswell, marines had these insanely fast skulks come in from nowhere and enter close range before they even had time to fire at them. So UWE nerfed celerity to more common sense levels ... yet they still were obsessed with making celerity the replacement of hive teleport
So here we are today, with celerity that will turn off when in combat, because its meant for only getting you from hive to hive in the eyes of UWE
Serious questions now..
-Were the alien upgrades to hard to balance without having negative effects attached to them?
-Was/is "realism" a factor in these decisions?
I agree though that I don't like the downsides, and my gut reaction is that they should be removed. That said, aliens seem to be doing quite well with them, so outside of my not liking them, I don't really know that they're game breaking.
Really hate that Cara slow down though. Makes me QQ as a Lerk.
I agree though that I don't like the downsides, and my gut reaction is that they should be removed. That said, aliens seem to be doing quite well with them, so outside of my not liking them, I don't really know that they're game breaking.
Really hate that Cara slow down though. Makes me QQ as a Lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 58% win rate for aliens is in part due to poor hit reg (and late game performance). It is my belief that the reason why carapace has a slow down and celerity stops working the second combat starts is to give marines an easier target to hit. If carapace didn't have it's slowdown and celerity worked at all times, I can bet that the forums will be flooded with aliens are too hard to hit and that the hit reg is terrible. It's actually rather ingenious of them to "balance" the game this way because they know the game's hit reg and performance isn't up to snuff for a game near release. But what this does is ruin the upgrades for aliens. Let me explain:
Carapace is a false upgrade for a skulk on one hive, because what the slowdown does is lets the marines hit you with more bullets, so the extra armor awarded by the carapace is effectively negligible 'cause your taking more hits than you would have without carapace. Hence why crag is no longer taken first hive in most games. You need leap to make carapace work.
Celerity is a first hive upgrade and then completely ditched upon second hive- leap and adren. Anyone with any sense and knows how to play skulk knows adren is superior to celerity. While you might arrive at your destination 3-5 seconds faster than another skulk without adren, your combat performance is a lot worse than that skulk that does have adren. 2 leaps with celerity and your out of energy, and you move just as fast as a skulk with adren in combat. Whereas a skulk with adren can leap nearly continuously, effectively evading marine fire better and still have enough energy to bite. So what sounds better? 5 seconds faster or better combat utility? I rather guarantee a kill than rush to my death faster.
The people arguing that celerity is a tool for map movement and only that. Than what is sprint doing if marines have portals (or vice versa)?
I'm all for improving marine movement as long as sprint is removed. It's also pretty damn annoying sending marines flying just because they jumped too.
Yes, hitreg is bad, but a faster moving player is harder to hit than one that is slower. So while it will always take 20-30 shots to kill a skulk no matter how fast they are moving, a faster skulk will live longer because he took less consecutive shots. Hence why I always go adren/carapace on a skulk because I'm insanely much more evasive leaping around my target and biting them during reloads, I'd often leave the fight with 60 health left (while celerity/carapace skulks are so laughably easy to kill).
Carapace is a false upgrade for a skulk on one hive, because what the slowdown does is lets the marines hit you with more bullets, so the extra armor awarded by the carapace is effectively negligible 'cause your taking more hits than you would have without carapace. Hence why crag is no longer taken first hive in most games. You need leap to make carapace work.
Celerity is a first hive upgrade and then completely ditched upon second hive- leap and adren. Anyone with any sense and knows how to play skulk knows adren is superior to celerity. While you might arrive at your destination 3-5 seconds faster than another skulk without adren, your combat performance is a lot worse than that skulk that does have adren. 2 leaps with celerity and your out of energy, and you move just as fast as a skulk with adren in combat. Whereas a skulk with adren can leap nearly continuously, effectively evading marine fire better and still have enough energy to bite. So what sounds better? 5 seconds faster or better combat utility? I rather guarantee a kill than rush to my death faster.
The people arguing that celerity is a tool for map movement and only that. Than what is sprint doing if marines have portals (or vice versa)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no the 58% winrate is due to fades. *edit* and power nodes
I can go 20-3 as a skulk. I have serious doubts its just fades (or power nodes).
We all can. Pubstomping is not the way to diagnose our problems.
Lifeforms seem like the better analog to marine weapons to me.
Why nerf the things that are fun to the point that they aren't fun anymore.
Also these are upgrades, the alien commander payed quite a bit of res to research the hive, the building, and then the ability. THE TRADE OFF IS THAT YOU PAYED FOR IT :)
Imagine if weapon upgrades for marines made you reload slower, or armor upgrades made you move slower.... that would not be fun.
Why nerf the things that are fun to the point that they aren't fun anymore.
Also these are upgrades, the alien commander payed quite a bit of res to research the hive, the building, and then the ability. THE TRADE OFF IS THAT YOU PAYED FOR IT :)
Imagine if weapon upgrades for marines made you reload slower, or armor upgrades made you move slower.... that would not be fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines need more tres to research their stuff, and all of it comes with at least one downside except maybe the Jetpack. Shotgun is useless at mid-long range, Grenade Launcher is terrible at close-mid range, Flamethrower is terrible vs Lifeforms, Mines are awful against anything that isn't a Skulk, and the Exos literally have about five times more downsides than upsides.
NS2 is a game about tradeoffs, not upgrades.
And actually, all of the purchasable Marine weapons do reload slower <i>and</i> make the Marine move more slowly than the LMG.
Are these penalties still (or differ somehow) in the current build?
Carapace no longer slows. Both regen and celerity are different than they were back then, but retain in-combat (ie deal damage or take damage) penalties. I'm not sure on the exact times anymore, but it takes a few seconds of neither dealing damage nor receiving damage for celerity and regen to kick in. Camouflage also works like this.
Yes I figured they changed. I did search, but found nothing. I figured it was safer necro'ing an old thread than ranting on the forums. Thanks for the clarification.