MAC train R.I.P?
elodea
Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">I think not.</div><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The MAC is no longer able to weld for 1 second after taking damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hello. Just a heads up for UWE, your change to MACS in b218 did not fundamentally change anything and i'm not sure what exactly you thought it would fix. I just hope you don't put this in the "its done" basket and forget about it.
The big problem with MAC train and self sustainability was always pre-bilebomb, 1-hive exploitation, and the inability (or huge time sink) of non-gorge lifeforms to kill MAC circle jerks. Bilebomb as a mechanic was already perfectly capable of dealing with MAC spam as it.
1) Applied as an aoe dot (thus every MAC only had an effective incoming weld rate of one MAC).
2) The dot was significantly higher than the effective weld rate such that it was never a problem about unreasonable time to death.
So yea, all this has done is marginally sped up MAC time to death while not addressing what actually made MAC trains so exploitative in the first place (it wasn't just exo support). There have been numerous community suggested solutions that have adressed the underlying issue.
Hello. Just a heads up for UWE, your change to MACS in b218 did not fundamentally change anything and i'm not sure what exactly you thought it would fix. I just hope you don't put this in the "its done" basket and forget about it.
The big problem with MAC train and self sustainability was always pre-bilebomb, 1-hive exploitation, and the inability (or huge time sink) of non-gorge lifeforms to kill MAC circle jerks. Bilebomb as a mechanic was already perfectly capable of dealing with MAC spam as it.
1) Applied as an aoe dot (thus every MAC only had an effective incoming weld rate of one MAC).
2) The dot was significantly higher than the effective weld rate such that it was never a problem about unreasonable time to death.
So yea, all this has done is marginally sped up MAC time to death while not addressing what actually made MAC trains so exploitative in the first place (it wasn't just exo support). There have been numerous community suggested solutions that have adressed the underlying issue.
Comments
If you are biting a single mac, the others can still repair it. If you try biting all the MACs at once, I think that is perhaps too big a task.
The issue comes from single lifeforms attacking either a pack of MACs solo, or a building in marine base solo. As I said, I experienced this the other day trying to take out a CC whilst all the marines were out of their base at our last hives. There was literally nothing I could do.
Bite MAC, MACs repair themselves. Bite CC MACs repair CC. Repeat.
I'm not sure what the solution is.
how to solve the mac issue :
The problem is that MACs can repair at the same time something is taking damage, be it a structure/arc/exo/another mac. Rather than the current change, where the mac being attacked cannot repair for 1 second... it should be the other way around, that the mac being attacked cannot BE REPAIRED until 1 or 2 seconds have passed since it has stopped receiving damage.
MAC's will repair out of combat and cannot repair anything that is taking damage (exo/arc/structure/marines/other macs)
only welders can repair during combat and whilst something is taking damage.
how to solve the mac issue :
The problem is that MACs can repair at the same time something is taking damage, be it a structure/arc/exo/another mac. Rather than the current change, where the mac being attacked cannot repair for 1 second... it should be the other way around, that the mac being attacked cannot BE REPAIRED until 1 or 2 seconds have passeoPd since it has stopped receiving damage.
MAC's will repair out of combat and cannot repair anything that is taking damage (exo/arc/structure/marines/other macs)
only welders can repair during combat and whilst something is taking damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seconded.
Decrease that rate, and you will see MACs fleeing for nearby marines instead of just welding each other forever.
Drifter rushes are more effective than MAC rushes unless the MACs are supporting an Exo train. In that case, an Exo train like that requires a ridiculous amount of res and time to set up.
how to solve the mac issue :
The problem is that MACs can repair at the same time something is taking damage, be it a structure/arc/exo/another mac. Rather than the current change, where the mac being attacked cannot repair for 1 second... it should be the other way around, that the mac being attacked cannot BE REPAIRED until 1 or 2 seconds have passed since it has stopped receiving damage.
MAC's will repair out of combat and cannot repair anything that is taking damage (exo/arc/structure/marines/other macs)
only welders can repair during combat and whilst something is taking damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1. I've said this before.
MAC trains need to stop, its become stupid since exo's appeared but it was always bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1973135:date=Sep 6 2012, 06:03 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 6 2012, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MACs can get nerfed again when Drifters do.
Drifter rushes are more effective than MAC rushes unless the MACs are supporting an Exo train. In that case, an Exo train like that requires a ridiculous amount of res and time to set up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree drifters have too much HP since last patch. They've gone from "lol I can lag out the server to win" to "lol I can swarm the marine base unless they have gl".
Only reason drifter spam isn't so bad is because at 1 CC you can still get GL. Aliens cannot get bile until second hive. I really wish they would move all second hive abilities back to first hive, remove the requirement for aliens to get 3 hives or force marines to do the same.
I have yet to experience a game with exos AND mac trains that come before bilebomb. If the aliens haven't thought of getting bilebomb before the marines have an actual train of macs well then they deserve to lose. I don't really see what the fuss is about with mac trains, since someone just have to go gorge and bilebomb the suckers. Have you really experinced marines getting exos and a mac train before aliens could get bilebomb? That just sounds wrong to me.
Also to another poster who said that you can't do much when there are macs in base welding stuff, well if it's so late in the game that marines have multiple macs in base why do you think you should be able to do anything as a single skulk? Late game you need higher lifeforms if you want to assault a base unless the marines are bad.
Also to another poster who said that you can't do much when there are macs in base welding stuff, well if it's so late in the game that marines have multiple macs in base why do you think you should be able to do anything as a single skulk? Late game you need higher lifeforms if you want to assault a base unless the marines are bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have yet to experience stepping on the moon but i've seen someone do it. And even if i hadn't seen someone do it, i could take my basic knowledge of geography, some basic knowledge of the chemical makeup of the moon and imagine what it might realistically be like. Exploiting MACs early game is by comparison a far cry from imagining what the moon might be like in the 1600's so i don't see where your going with this.
Read my post again, im talking about early game especially.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(it wasn't just exo support)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are sorely mistaken if you think its legit to simply nullify one skulk, two skulks, three skulks, even four skulks so easily (2 MACs per skulk at current weld rates). I was already exploiting MAC weld rates on light marines the same build autoweld came out (many builds before exo release) and it was becoming obvious something had to be done (and still hasn't been).
+1 to the mush solution
Erm... ok
I would have thought that NOT stacking the repair rate would be a better solution.
or something more daring : MAC's can't go into rooms that have no power - and if the power goes out in a room with MACs in it - they lose power and drop to the floor.
Read my post again, im talking about early game especially.
You are sorely mistaken if you think its legit to simply nullify one skulk, two skulks, three skulks, even four skulks so easily (2 MACs per skulk at current weld rates). I was already exploiting MAC weld rates on light marines the same build autoweld came out (many builds before exo release) and it was becoming obvious something had to be done (and still hasn't been).
+1 to the mush solution<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
investing into macs early game delays the marines other tech. i don't think it's unbalanced at all.
Yea this is a good point.
4 speed macs with robotics recycle is about the same general cost as the other techpaths (early sg/mines/welder, obs/pg, aa/gl etc.). But you can pretty effectively deny rt munching and run heaps of rt's atleast in the pub context. At the same time theres nothing aliens can do untill bilebomb which is usually a fair bit after leap/blink.
As marines you get blocked by the macs and the game feels clumsy.
As aliens you get blocked, your damage get nullified in seconds if you dont manage to kill the marine.
Less teamwork is needed for keeping exos alive for example.
4 speed macs with robotics recycle is about the same general cost as the other techpaths (early sg/mines/welder, obs/pg, aa/gl etc.). But you can pretty effectively deny rt munching and run heaps of rt's atleast in the pub context. At the same time theres nothing aliens can do untill bilebomb which is usually a fair bit after leap/blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
with proper scouting you can see fast robo and go bb before blink, if they recycle the robo then your gorges counter all their time and res investment.
I think this is the simplest solution. Something being bit and swatted around would be rattling around too much to get any meaningful repairs done anyway, so it's not out-of-character, either.
lol that would drive marine commanders nuts.