Simple Onos change
antacid
Join Date: 2007-08-07 Member: 61821Members, NS2 Playtester
Join Date: 2007-08-07 Member: 61821Members, NS2 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">To add more strategy</div>The onos has a clearly armored head and a soft backside, wouldn't it make sense if the onos took reduced damage when being shot head on and normal damage when being shot in the bum? Currently the onos is pretty useless with the inclusion of the exos, but I think that making them stronger head on, while still weak from behind would fix alot of their problems.
Comments
This wouldn't make much of a difference except for taking a little less damage on your way in.
This is exactly how it worked in NS1 and for all I know might be the way it works right now
ns1 had no damage zones at all. the reason why you might think an ns1 onos was stronger when looking in your direction might be because he was stomping in that direction -> all marines stop shooting (also heavies). that's also true in ns2, but exos are unaffected by stomp.
initially when the ns2 onos was coded, we had this "damage zone". any attacks had their damage mitigated depending on certain angles. but this turned out to be too unintuitive: onos players did not know about this (how should they?) and turned around when retreating -> dead onos. and marines never tried to flank an onos because, well they did not know it either. instead of such a passive ability, i could imagine that a damage mitigating ability could work very well as tier 2. "bone shield" was discussed quite often, and i think that is exactly what the onos needs. i wrote once a prototype and it worked nice so far. i could imagine that such ability would fix the exo vs. onos problem and add a bit more 'skill' to onos gameplay.
Also, how to make the effect evident for the marines and the player? Visually it's true that he looks much more armored on the front, but that's all, and you can't see the life bar on enemy models or have any feedback on how much damage you're doing.
initially when the ns2 onos was coded, we had this "damage zone". any attacks had their damage mitigated depending on certain angles. but this turned out to be too unintuitive: onos players did not know about this (how should they?) and turned around when retreating -> dead onos. and marines never tried to flank an onos because, well they did not know it either. instead of such a passive ability, i could imagine that a damage mitigating ability could work very well as tier 2. "bone shield" was discussed quite often, and i think that is exactly what the onos needs. i wrote once a prototype and it worked nice so far. i could imagine that such ability would fix the exo vs. onos problem and add a bit more 'skill' to onos gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the onos has to use an ability, that means he isnt doing any damage output, which means that exo still wins because the exo can still go ballistic, keep the onos in bone shield stance, and another marine can flank, or the exo can walk away/around slowly while laying down overkill suppressing fire, picking off skulks and that gorge along the way. And if onos mitigation only comes at two hives, well 1 ninja marine can castrate a prexisting onos who would miraculously forget how to protect himself because a hive a mile away died...:
Just playing devils advocate, but I think onos needs a passive boost. Onos vs exo should be an even fight between equal skill players. Or rather onos should have advantage. I've never seen multiple onos. I've seen multiple exos frequently.
Onos should be one of the best units in the game imo, shouldnt be neutered by exos, jetpakcs, any marine near a small obstacle (ring around the rosey easily beats an onos).
For comparison, Exos get neutered by.... uh... maybe a horde of skulks that catch it off guard? and that exo will still kill 5 guys as a parting gift.
Just playing devils advocate, but I think onos needs a passive boost. Onos vs exo should be an even fight between equal skill players. Or rather onos should have advantage. I've never seen multiple onos. I've seen multiple exos frequently.
Onos should be one of the best units in the game imo, shouldnt be neutered by exos, jetpakcs, any marine near a small obstacle (ring around the rosey easily beats an onos).
For comparison, Exos get neutered by.... uh... maybe a horde of skulks that catch it off guard? and that exo will still kill 5 guys as a parting gift.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos is 75 res on two hives. Dualie Exos need two CC's, a Protolab, a lot of research, upgrades to make worthwhile, and welders/MACs for support. 75 res and 40+ tres (the + is for however many cysts it takes to make a second Hive) vs 75 res, time, and a metric ######load of tres to build up to Exo on the tech tree. I don't see why a lone Onos should be a match for a dual minigun 3/3 Exo.
Also, a single Skulk can kill a lone Exo. Exos have a lot of blindspots where they can't shoot that can be abused.
Onos stomp can prevent exos from firing for 1 second or less, but the exo can still use the Iron Fist (this would also add a strategic choice when you have to choose between the two types of exo)
Also, a single Skulk can kill a lone Exo. Exos have a lot of blindspots where they can't shoot that can be abused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I cant harass an exo as a skult fairly effectively. But any marie nearby messes that up. an Onos needs very specific team support to be remotely viable. Nasty disadvantage.
So onos is available mid game, and exo is available late game is what the above effectively implies. So lateish game that dual 3/3 = win. yet marines get more resources because of skulk fodder kills, that tech comes quickly and each marine is well outfitted.
So the dual mini exo, in effect, is near unstopable, cause onos cant tank it and cant kill it but costs a player just as much, and if a marine or 2 are nearby, that very skilled skulk player cant kill it. Chances that the aliens have multiple capable players who know how to defeat an exo, and a team of marines who don't know how to back up an exo... seems like bad odds. exo = easy to get kills. onos, very hard to get kills. Aliens arn't zerg; they don't get superior numbers, and have little ranged support.
Again, not being argumentative. Healthy balance debate. Marines are kick ass and are fun to play. atm, aliens don't feel nearly as fun, cause 95% of the game are spend as skulk. I went back and played ns1 for a while to compare, and I get to be a whole lot of lifeforms in ns1 in a single match. ns2 if you want an onos, you play skulk and only skulk, and once you get onos, you die, and never see another life form. Every resource gets completely devoted to it. Plus you dont get any abilities beyond the headbutt thing unless you are pwning the map =/ adds salt to the would if you're only come-back capable unit gets gimped because you need to make a comeback.
You don't get resources for kills anymore. Marines need to maintain map control for the majority of the game to be able to roll out fully outfitted Exos.
But Aliens needing to finish off the Marines before it enters late game has always been NS's thing. Marines take a lot more resources to get to the end game, but they're much stronger when there.
Most of the Exo trains that I've seen get destroyed have been because they get zerg rushed by a bunch of lifeforms to serve as a distraction while Gorges hit the lot of them with Bilebomb. But again, if Marines get to that point, then it means that they've had map control for a long time. In a game based around gathering resources, shouldn't that logically be a win for them if they manage that?
Edit: Basically, Onos counters light Marines (Stomp effectively lets one wreck an unlimited number of them provided it has a Skulk or Fade to help finish off the stunned Marines) but Exo is the Marine's answer to higher lifeforms. Because they don't really have that many.
It's a strange dynamic. Exo counters higher lifeforms while being countered by lower lifeforms and Onos(es?) counter light Marines but are countered by 'heavy' Marines.
But Aliens needing to finish off the Marines before it enters late game has always been NS's thing. Marines take a lot more resources to get to the end game, but they're much stronger when there.
Most of the Exo trains that I've seen get destroyed have been because they get zerg rushed by a bunch of lifeforms to serve as a distraction while Gorges hit the lot of them with Bilebomb. But again, if Marines get to that point, then it means that they've had map control for a long time. In a game based around gathering resources, shouldn't that logically be a win for them if they manage that?
Edit: Basically, Onos counters light Marines (Stomp effectively lets one wreck an unlimited number of them provided it has a Skulk or Fade to help finish off the stunned Marines) but Exo is the Marine's answer to higher lifeforms. Because they don't really have that many.
It's a strange dynamic. Exo counters higher lifeforms while being countered by lower lifeforms and Onos(es?) counter light Marines but are countered by 'heavy' Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
do you even play aliens ?
I avoid it whenever possible.
Interesting.
Then perhaps stop talking balance for aliens then...if you dont play them then how do you know how they actually play.
This is the second discusison you have weighed in on about alien balance yet you dont play aliens, though apparently you can give advice on how to lerk/onos.
To say exo is the counter to alien higher lifeforms and is therefor balanced is comical, shows a complete lack of understanding of the game.
I was on a 18v18 server on veil...we walked 4 exo from marine spawn into cargo and took out the hive in about 3 mintues (including transit time and waiting for robo factory to be built...needed macs).
We did not worry about skulks as we spread out enough to cover each others feet so skulks got 1-2 bites in max before a team mate made them into swiss cheese.
Onos is meant to be aliens counter to teched up marines...after all aliens only get lifeforms as ways to increase damage in NS2.
Same way lerks and fades are meant to counter early mid and late mid game marines.
So whilst marines get 3 armour and wepaons upgrades, shotguns, GL's, FLamers, Jp's and Exo's... aliens only get higher lifeforms.
JP's with flamers or GL's have been an OP'd counter to onos for a long time, marines do not need exo's to be so overpowered compared to Onos.
This means that the current spanking exo's hand all lifeforms, but most of all Onos, breaks balance in the game and needs to be changed.
If you doubt me watch out for the buff they have already announced for onos in next patch...the only question is will it have been enough.
was this in the days when ns2 was barely playable? because i think its worth revisiting now that the game is quite stable. If battlefield players can figure out that a tank has more armor in the front, I would imagine ns2 players could make the connection between the GIANT FRICKEN bone armor thingies on the front of it and the fact you take less damage from front :)
all you need is a tool tip or a glowing effect as bullets bounce off your 1stperson view model.
Requirements for the Aliens higher lifeforms are very low. To the point where it's possible to field an Onos within 5-7 minutes. I've never seen Exos get researched before the 15 minute mark because of all the expensive prerequisites. Even though they cost the same 50-75 pres as the higher lifeforms, the true cost of Exos is actually significantly higher especially because they need further upgrades to be truly effective. There's no reason that the Exos should lose to a 'lesser' unit, especially when it's being supported by other Exos and welders/MACs. I see few complaints when a single Fade is capable of taking on 2-5 LMG Marines early game.
Besides, I didn't say that I never played Aliens, just that I avoided it. I don't enjoy their playstyle of endless offense. But I don't need to be an Alien expert to discuss the balance on at least a superficial level. An Onos can run into a group of Marines and stomp, stunning all of them and letting them be killed while they can't fight back. Regardless of whether or not I regularly play Aliens (and thus Onos), the fact that it is within the Onos' capability is enough to be able to discuss it. Marines without an Exo or JP can't do much to stop an Onos outside of the Grenade Launcher, but the GL is widely considered overpowered anyway.
Edit: And most of the Lerk advice I gave is basically just repeating strategies that I've seen used on the Marines with great effect. For example, it really sucks to have a Lerk crop dust a column of Marines then suddenly get swarmed by Skulks that you can barely see. Generally it ends with few Alien causalities while the Marine push gets broken. Survivors (if any) are usually picked off shortly afterwards.
Marines dont have to spend any res to get upgrades, wep 1/2/3 armor 1/2/3/ they just pool their res till exo and its only 50 res, most of their team as exos, how do you stop that with onos? LOL
I think aliens need to be buffed in general.
Besides, I didn't say that I never played Aliens, just that I avoided it. I don't enjoy their playstyle of endless offense. But I don't need to be an Alien expert to discuss the balance on at least a superficial level. An Onos can run into a group of Marines and stomp, stunning all of them and letting them be killed while they can't fight back. Regardless of whether or not I regularly play Aliens (and thus Onos), the fact that it is within the Onos' capability is enough to be able to discuss it. Marines without an Exo or JP can't do much to stop an Onos outside of the Grenade Launcher, but the GL is widely considered overpowered anyway.
Edit: And most of the Lerk advice I gave is basically just repeating strategies that I've seen used on the Marines with great effect. For example, it really sucks to have a Lerk crop dust a column of Marines then suddenly get swarmed by Skulks that you can barely see. Generally it ends with few Alien causalities while the Marine push gets broken. Survivors (if any) are usually picked off shortly afterwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exos can be up in about 5 minuts if I recall correctly, they are just as viable an early rush as onos is (more actually).
Unless your talking about comm bought eggs then you wont see fades until about 5 min (res limits) and comm bought eggs sacrifice other things for the team (ie upgrades) so a fade with no adren or blink is pretty average.
Fades cost 50 Res..same as a basic exo.
Lerks been badly nerfed and for 30 res is a total waste of money, I enjoy playing lerk....did so in NS1 and have persevered in NS2.
Spores are now second hive and require additional research...see previous range of reasons why its no longer researched.
This leaves lerk with bite and spikes...not exactly much use against anything but absolute vanilla marines, which dont exist after 4 minutes of gameplay as armour and weapon upgrades are hitting the field.
Lerk gas no longer obscures like it did half a dozen build ago..infact the build after umbra was released it took a huge nerf...no more is a spore cloud going to make it hard for marines to see.
I would suggest you trying running into a pack of 4-5 marines as an onos and see how you go...please feel free to try this...spend 75 res on onos and just blindly run in like your suggesting.
Anyone who has played onos in a long time knows he needs atleast 1 gorge backing him up otherwise he is a dead onos.
I am not trying to make you look bad but you go giving ideas about strategies you dont use yourself.
You simply saw it used succesfully once....lerks flying past marines with shotguns even with carapace is 50-50 at best.
Exo's need nerfing or onos needs buffing watch the next patch...Onos is getting a buff...guess I am right and Exo's OP'd against Onos...oh and some more buffs for the lerk are coming too.
Sorry but you shouldn't give advice on strats unless you have successfully tried yourself on repeated occasions.
Marines dont have to spend any res to get upgrades, wep 1/2/3 armor 1/2/3/ they just pool their res till exo and its only 50 res, most of their team as exos, how do you stop that with onos? LOL
I think aliens need to be buffed in general.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos and lerk definitely need some love. Skulks and fades are decent.
Marines feel pretty solid as is. Exos put them way over the top without significant alien addition to compare.