The problem with this build.
Hunter.S.T.
Join Date: 2012-05-26 Member: 152596Members
Join Date: 2012-05-26 Member: 152596Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And suggestion for a possible fix.</div>Hi folks, id like to start by saying that i do love this game, and i dont want to be derisive of the awesome jobs the devs have done.
But....
The tres system for higher lifeforms is extreemly broken, and is detrimental to the skill development of players.
At the moment, i comm many games as follows, hold out on 2 hives, and 3 rts, and try to get regen, adren, blink up.
The moment marines are distracted in a rush, or leave an area alone, you get up to 5rts. At this point, the game is over. You can now build a fade egg, every 30 seconds. entire team can go fade, and be kept fade.
So once aliens do get to 2 hives, blink, regen, adren, 5rts, the game is over. The chance of a marine comeback is miniscule. On some of the larger maps, where it is easier for aliens to get up to this 5rt 2 hive mark, it is an even larger problem.
I have players who tell me that they are a bad fade, and will die right away, i tell them "it doesnt matter, go in and die, ill buy you another". I played a game earlier where aliens were 2 players down, and using this tatic, we could still win. One player went through 7 fades.
I used to build crag, shift and shade stations near marine bases, so that the very precious fades could heal faster, attack more, and feel that they have to get greedy less. Now i never bother to do that, just let the fades die, and buy em another. 2 crags costs as much as a fade, the shade and shift would cost as much as a fade, the price of cysting to their base, another fade. Might as well just have 3 fades, and only start the crag station building when u have 2 spare fade eggs in base, and spare res.
"well marine commander can buy exo as well" i hear you say, not true, the tech tree for marines is far more extensive, and take a lot more time to get teched up enough, and to support enough in order to hold enough rts to give everone an exo, with little choice about the essential early upgrades, mines, welders, phasetech, phasegates, forward armourys before even considering the tech tree to get to exos, and if u loose your second cc and u have been rushing for exos/jps, say goodbye to any chance of winning caues u didnt build an arms lab, protect that second cc, while ur doing it, the alien commander is gettin up to his 5rts, and perma fades.
That said, i do like the changes to the start of games that tres for higher lifeforms has brought in, mass gorging to protect key areas, then re skulking, is a nice game dynamic, that gives aliens that extra little bit of time they need to get to resources and protect them in the early game, and its not a problem, because the commander can buy them their fade eggs.
I would like to see a solution that keeps tres for lifeforms, without introducing the gigantic tech explosion that is present in 217, and that the devs worked so hard to try and avoid. So what is to be done about it.
<b>Perhaps the alien comm should only be able to drop gorge eggs at one hive, lerk eggs at 2, and fade and onos eggs at 3. Also, the prices for lifeforms should be the same in tres, as they are currently in pres, maybe even a little more expensive.</b>
<i>If the aliens have got to 2 hives, 5rts, the game shouldnt be over. If the aliens have got to 3 hives, 7rts, and can once again buy a fade every 30-40 seconds, they probably should win, and would with these changes.</i>
I find the current build to be lacking in fun, because i can kill an entire team worth of fades, and see other marines on my team do the same, and yet we can still loose. Killing a great fade, should be a cause for celebration, and it just isnt.
I must admit, that after aliens get to this point, the pub games feel like an endless grind to me, which isnt a very enjoyable game dynamic.
Just to go for the sandwich technique (good bad good), i do love this game, and i thank the devs for doin an awesome job, i hope u will consider these ramblings favourably.
Best regards, nxzl.Hunter
But....
The tres system for higher lifeforms is extreemly broken, and is detrimental to the skill development of players.
At the moment, i comm many games as follows, hold out on 2 hives, and 3 rts, and try to get regen, adren, blink up.
The moment marines are distracted in a rush, or leave an area alone, you get up to 5rts. At this point, the game is over. You can now build a fade egg, every 30 seconds. entire team can go fade, and be kept fade.
So once aliens do get to 2 hives, blink, regen, adren, 5rts, the game is over. The chance of a marine comeback is miniscule. On some of the larger maps, where it is easier for aliens to get up to this 5rt 2 hive mark, it is an even larger problem.
I have players who tell me that they are a bad fade, and will die right away, i tell them "it doesnt matter, go in and die, ill buy you another". I played a game earlier where aliens were 2 players down, and using this tatic, we could still win. One player went through 7 fades.
I used to build crag, shift and shade stations near marine bases, so that the very precious fades could heal faster, attack more, and feel that they have to get greedy less. Now i never bother to do that, just let the fades die, and buy em another. 2 crags costs as much as a fade, the shade and shift would cost as much as a fade, the price of cysting to their base, another fade. Might as well just have 3 fades, and only start the crag station building when u have 2 spare fade eggs in base, and spare res.
"well marine commander can buy exo as well" i hear you say, not true, the tech tree for marines is far more extensive, and take a lot more time to get teched up enough, and to support enough in order to hold enough rts to give everone an exo, with little choice about the essential early upgrades, mines, welders, phasetech, phasegates, forward armourys before even considering the tech tree to get to exos, and if u loose your second cc and u have been rushing for exos/jps, say goodbye to any chance of winning caues u didnt build an arms lab, protect that second cc, while ur doing it, the alien commander is gettin up to his 5rts, and perma fades.
That said, i do like the changes to the start of games that tres for higher lifeforms has brought in, mass gorging to protect key areas, then re skulking, is a nice game dynamic, that gives aliens that extra little bit of time they need to get to resources and protect them in the early game, and its not a problem, because the commander can buy them their fade eggs.
I would like to see a solution that keeps tres for lifeforms, without introducing the gigantic tech explosion that is present in 217, and that the devs worked so hard to try and avoid. So what is to be done about it.
<b>Perhaps the alien comm should only be able to drop gorge eggs at one hive, lerk eggs at 2, and fade and onos eggs at 3. Also, the prices for lifeforms should be the same in tres, as they are currently in pres, maybe even a little more expensive.</b>
<i>If the aliens have got to 2 hives, 5rts, the game shouldnt be over. If the aliens have got to 3 hives, 7rts, and can once again buy a fade every 30-40 seconds, they probably should win, and would with these changes.</i>
I find the current build to be lacking in fun, because i can kill an entire team worth of fades, and see other marines on my team do the same, and yet we can still loose. Killing a great fade, should be a cause for celebration, and it just isnt.
I must admit, that after aliens get to this point, the pub games feel like an endless grind to me, which isnt a very enjoyable game dynamic.
Just to go for the sandwich technique (good bad good), i do love this game, and i thank the devs for doin an awesome job, i hope u will consider these ramblings favourably.
Best regards, nxzl.Hunter
Comments
Even though the scenario hunter described is correct for public games, its not so much of a deal in competetive play yet. It could be, once its regularly used.
But i do miss the satisfaction from killing a fade, because in an even midgame, its absolutly worthless.
This would also delay the early Onos tactic which seems to be becoming popular.
This would also delay the early Onos tactic which seems to be becoming popular.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea...would need lots of thought towards the distribution (i.e. TRes vs PRes), but could work well.
They allready are restricted somewhat scardy, right now, gorge and lerk - 1 hive, onos and fade - 2 hives.
I see in your example, that fade eggs can be bought on 2 hives, this is essentially what i think is at the core of the problem, aliens can get to 2 hives, adren, regen, blink, and then they just need one res expansion to 5 rts total before they can buy a fade every 30 seconds.
I think that limiting fade and onos to 3 hives would stop this, as would vastly increasing the price, although i favour a moderate price increase and limiting fades to 3 hives.
Although this would see less early gorges who reskulk, one or two players could still be bought a lerk egg on 2 hives, so good lerks would be my choice for early gorgeys.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could make these eggs also require an investment of pres from the players to use. So if you wanted to jump in a Fade egg it'd cost you, say, 20 pres on top of what the commander paid for it. And an Onos could cost 40 additional pres.
This would also delay the early Onos tactic which seems to be becoming popular.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think this would solve the issue, althought it might reduce the problem somewhat. At least comepletely nooby fades would eventually run out of res, moderatly good fades, who can survive with a fade long enough to earn 20 res, would still be perma fade tho.
As for delaying the early onos tatic, it depends, i really dont think it would delay the mass onos tatic very much, as normally by the time i am trying to completely onos my team, most of them have 40 res, or close to. Althougth it would stop the singular early onos tatic
There was allready plenty to spend it on, crags, shifts, shades, whips, spare hives, cyst spam, heal cycling crags, disorienting shades, eggs from shifts, spare upgrade strutures. These should all be viable, but right now, lifeforms are <b>by far</b> the most economical option.
Whats most effective?
2 whips, or a fade
2 crags, or a fade
a spare regen shell, or a fade
a shade in both your hives, or a fade
For me, its a fade.
Im willing to bet that this change alone is showing up as an effective improovement in performance in mid to late game, just by the reduction of spam, this is of course no reason to keep things as they are, but is interesting to me none the less.
Also, on publics, I haven't seen this mass fade egg spam being a problem, but that propably is because most players aren't that excellent fades. I tend to ask for fade eggs for myself, and when comming, I do donate out some eggs. If there were more better fades, I'd donate more, but then again, good fades generally are also good skulks, and the early game will have gone better anyway, and the fades are just the way to end the game ;)
So, im my opinion, this fade egg buying is pretty hard to pull off in competative gaming and just not that big of a deal on publics. Then again, it is kind of sad that half of alien tech/lifeforms seems to go unused. Shade sucks (although feign death on fades is broken), onos isn't worth it, effective lerking is rare and mostly 3rd level abilities are curiosities that you can upgrade once you've already won the game. If something other than fades was useful after the 10-12 minute mark, then I guess aliens would use that something more. Now we mostly see skulks, gorges and fades.
A very good patch though. Sure there are some problems, but I haven't had this much fun with NS2 since spring... Also, finally in this patch my 4,5ghz i7 2600k can stay a bit above 30 fps in heavy combat <3
thats because in pubs there are all types of commanders, many of which are either new or are not aware of how OP this is or simply choose not to do it because its more fun setting up little outposts than spamming fade eggs.
Marines can drop cheaper equipment, this was needed as T res is more valuable to marines, however this change carried over to aliens who simply dont need it. Fade eggs should cost 50 T res to place, same as P res cost, this should carry over to all the lifeforms.
You can blow through 5-6 Fades as a marine alone and make practically no dent in pushing the aliens back. It can be anyone's game: 5 RTs vs 5 RTs and then suddenly you've got so many high lifeforms coming at you, there's no way you can kill them repeatedly to push them back.
A marine commander might be able to drop jetpack/shotgun for 20Tres but the tech tree to get there is typically a good 5-10m after Fades arrive and start wrecking house in publics.
I'm really not sold on it being balanced in 24 player servers especially to be able to churn out so much Fade.
You can blow through 5-6 Fades as a marine alone and make practically no dent in pushing the aliens back. It can be anyone's game: 5 RTs vs 5 RTs and then suddenly you've got so many high lifeforms coming at you, there's no way you can kill them repeatedly to push them back.
A marine commander might be able to drop jetpack/shotgun for 20Tres but the tech tree to get there is typically a good 5-10m after Fades arrive and start wrecking house in publics.
I'm really not sold on it being balanced in 24 player servers especially to be able to churn out so much Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is mostly balanced on 6-8 v 6-8, I think. It's pretty new to have servers churning at reliable tick rate even at 20 players, and 24 wasn't really doable before build 217.
Also, there is some asymmetry at play here... currently aliens have hard time holding 3 res towers, let alone 5. The game going even when marines have 4-5 and aliens have 2-3 RTs... When you have 5 RTS vs 5 RTS, the game will most likely be quickly heading for alien victory. What map can you even do that in? Mineshaft? That map doesn't really play that well :(
This is especially a large problem in docking, where aliens can very easily hold 4-5rts on a public server. If they hold them for 3 minutes, its enough time to get 5-6 fades up.
One of the things i allways loved about NS, is that the game had to get pretty bad before you <b>had</b> to call gg, there was often the chance of winning, no matter how small. This just isnt true anymore, the game snowballs.
Ive said it before in this thread, aliens getting 2 hives, adren, blink, regen, and 5rts, shouldn't be sufficient to gurantee victory, and marines shouldnt have to win (or get sufficiently ahead that aliens are f4ing) in the first 9 minutes, or almost certianly loose.
In ns1 i never felt that two hives was gg, 2 hives meant that you were going to be fighting an uphill battle, and needed to strike at a hive fast. 3 hives, thats your gg time, primal scream, acid rocket, xeoncide, game over man, game over. not 2 hives and a moderate ammount of map control.
This is especially a large problem in docking, where aliens can very easily hold 4-5rts on a public server. If they hold them for 3 minutes, its enough time to get 5-6 fades up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An un-gorgehealed resource tower takes 45 sec to grow and costs 10 res. 6 secs per tick x 10 + 45 sec = 1 min 45 sec for an harvester to pay itself back. Then some more to pay back for cysts. So yes, very quickly as in: invest in a resource tower and hold it for 5 minutes -> you have paid for the RT and a fade egg.
I personally like to play docking from time to time, but it is not what I'd consider balanced or competitive, and is really rarely played in scrims. Mineshaft is much worse. Wouldn't base any balance discussion on those 2. Lets se... Summit is a bit small, so balanced but ADHD. Tram plays a bit like Summit, but isn't as good. Veil is huge and resources are a bit scarce and it favours marines slightly, but its balanced. I'd base balance discussion on Veil and Summit, but thats just me...
<!--quoteo(post=1972710:date=Sep 6 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Hunter.S.T.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hunter.S.T. @ Sep 6 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the things i allways loved about NS, is that the game had to get pretty bad before you <b>had</b> to call gg, there was often the chance of winning, no matter how small. This just isnt true anymore, the game snowballs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really mind there being such positive feedback loops that we actually can end the game. Banging your head against a turtle for 45 minutes is not my idea of fun. Really often games are decided in the first 5 minutes, and then it's just downhill for either team from there on. I like to get those kind of games done with and start a new one.
<!--quoteo(post=1972710:date=Sep 6 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Hunter.S.T.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hunter.S.T. @ Sep 6 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ive said it before in this thread, aliens getting 2 hives, adren, blink, regen, and 5rts, shouldn't be sufficient to gurantee victory, and marines shouldnt have to win (or get sufficiently ahead that aliens are f4ing) in the first 9 minutes, or almost certianly loose.
In ns1 i never felt that two hives was gg, 2 hives meant that you were going to be fighting an uphill battle, and needed to strike at a hive fast. 3 hives, thats your gg time, primal scream, acid rocket, xeoncide, game over man, game over. not 2 hives and a moderate ammount of map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that aliens getting all the tools they need and resource control of the map should usually be a relatively guaranteed win. Sure, there is a lot balance tweaking to do and some alien tech and lifeforms are not seen that often, but on the whole I do think that games should actually be winnable in 20 minutes if you play well.
I don't think that getting 2 hives/tech nodes is currently GG. Both of course try to go for 2 tech points and try and strike at the opposing teams bases, but there is a lot of time to make a difference with the tech you get. Unless your commander wants exo suits and makes the team lose ;) ... Fades usually don't start appearing before 10min mark and even then there is usually time to kill fades, hives and rts before those early fades get company. Sure, after 15min mark the aliens usually are stronger than the marines, but I don't really mind that. Early game is more difficult for aliens, so I guess they've earned it... I just don't see a huge problem in the state of the game currently, I guess. It works, though it of course could be much better. Maybe after the next round of tweaks something needs to be done to alien late game, but right now I don't think it is ruining the game.
Then again, I'm somewhat skilled with both fades and shotguns, so at least I enjoy the combat on both sides ;)
Yes, but you have allerady paid for that rt, and the cysts, using your other 3rts, that rt doesnt have to buy those again, and as you allude to, if a gorge is used to heal the rt up, the speed of the expansion is increased. Also, that one rt isnt buying a fade on its own, it has other rt friends who are also pumping out res.
Yes, in 3 minutes, that resource tower will produce enough resources for a fade, and so will its 5 friends, resulting in the 1fade every 36 seconds, at 5 rts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that aliens getting all the tools they need and resource control of the map should usually be a relatively guaranteed win. Sure, there is a lot balance tweaking to do and some alien tech and lifeforms are not seen that often, but on the whole I do think that games should actually be winnable in 20 minutes if you play well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you, its just that i dont think that 5 rts, 2 hives, adren, blink and regen, and maybe celerity to start, should constitute "all the tools they need".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think that getting 2 hives/tech nodes is currently GG. Both of course try to go for 2 tech points and try and strike at the opposing teams bases, but there is a lot of time to make a difference with the tech you get. Unless your commander wants exo suits and makes the team lose ;) ... Fades usually don't start appearing before 10min mark and even then there is usually time to kill fades, hives and rts before those early fades get company. Sure, after 15min mark the aliens usually are stronger than the marines, but I don't really mind that. Early game is more difficult for aliens, so I guess they've earned it... I just don't see a huge problem in the state of the game currently, I guess. It works, though it of course could be much better. Maybe after the next round of tweaks something needs to be done to alien late game, but right now I don't think it is ruining the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On public servers, its normally, at the 9 minute mark that i start mass fading my team, and the first fade will get company about 40 seconds later, and another one 40 seconds later, ad nauseum for the poor marines, if the marine team can kill fades at this rate, one every 40 seconds, and still maintain pressure on alien rts, AND hold onto all their own rts and tech points, there is an epic skill imbalance.
Let alone trying to attack a hive whilst thats going on.
I'd like to add my own counter-argument.
The game is balanced, but because all the maps except Veil have been designed with an uknown res system, and without knowledge of the full game, they have been built with too many res nodes. With the game settling down I am sure you will see a whole new crop of 4 TP, 6-8Node maps. Then you will see more balanced gameplay. The over abundance of res at the moment is entirely due to the overload of map res nodes, not game imbalance.
I am certain we will see some glorious maps coming very shortly, that will begin to nail the correct TP/RN numbers and produce the balanced gameplay that the numbers already represent.
Of course a short term measure could simply to be to reduce team res flow ever so slightly, so that the abundance of RT's slows it's benefits.
I played a few games of docking where in the old build, i would have expected a slow grinding alien win, even tho we were playing a superior team (with regards to killing ability), this did not happen, aleins put up a great fight, but marines eventually teched up against the fades, put pressure on our rts and upgrades, and won the day, with a gg being had by all.
Im even building crag stations again! Nice change UWE, hard to believe that such a small change can make the difference, but it feels much more balanced, to me anyway.