ONOS vs EXO
mushookees
Join Date: 2008-03-26 Member: 63967Members
Join Date: 2008-03-26 Member: 63967Members
ONOS vs EXO ... sounds like an even fight right ? well its not
1 ONOS vs 1 minigun EXO is hands down the EXO's victory
2 ONOS vs 2 minigun EXO is a fair fight
in res terms
75 res ONOS < 50 res EXO
150 res ONI = 75 res EXO
basically the ONOS takes far too much damage from miniguns, if anyone can do the math it would be interesting :)
1 ONOS vs 1 minigun EXO is hands down the EXO's victory
2 ONOS vs 2 minigun EXO is a fair fight
in res terms
75 res ONOS < 50 res EXO
150 res ONI = 75 res EXO
basically the ONOS takes far too much damage from miniguns, if anyone can do the math it would be interesting :)
Comments
Problem is that an onos can wreck a base if he gets in when everyone else is out doing somthing else lol really sneak attack is only option because as of just now anything can kill and onos lol the fact that they don't have bone armour(<u>reduced incoming damge from the front</u>) is a joke and they made it so that you can't even kill marines anymore no way should a lvlo or lvl1 armour marines be able to take a hit from a onos again this wouldn't be a problem if they gave it bone armour as I could see the point of not having high damage with high surivabilty but as it is just now if the marines see you coming you need to back away
also I don't like how the onos controls feels very slugish when trying to charge again wouldn't bother me expect of the fact thats there's no such slugish controls on the EXO how is this different why should the onos be slugish when charging to get to close range but the EXO be able to turn on the spot and track at normal speed from ranged ,, just saying seems as if onos are getting screwed lol keep EXO the same as it is just now I really like it seems balanced because of the fact that they can't use phase gate or beacon back to base, but onos really needs work and alot of it.
and for the record I don't think a Onos should pawn a EXO as I said I think and Exo should be what kills and Onos but just not in 2 second from the top of a norrow corrider lol Bone armour again would slove this lol
BONE ARMOUR >>> BONE ARMOUR
<!--quoteo(post=1970080:date=Sep 2 2012, 11:31 AM:name=arnyboy87)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arnyboy87 @ Sep 2 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also I don't like how the onos controls feels very slugish when trying to charge again wouldn't bother me expect of the fact thats there's no such slugish controls on the EXO<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exos cant charge around the map super fast tho (for given value of the words super and fast).
The macs, however, when welding Exos seem to be a bit too powerful. Unlike marines, when a comm escorts an exo with macs they are almost impossible to kill and turn Exos from glass cannons to walking tanks.
And I don't think Onos vs exo should ever be a "fair" fight. That would defeat the purpose of Exos being a counter to Onos. In SC2 if you have void rays vs marines you don't just sit there with your void rays against a bunch of marines, you get the ###### out of there. That's why they are a counter.
Minus the Mac issue, it's much better to have Exos be very good against Onos, because it forces diversification of aliens more, and causes better teamwork (when you do it right), same as Exos not being able to teleport/beacon forces diversification for marines.
and the onos is sluggish, it feels very start stop'ish as it takes a while to get up to speed, you can only charge in straight lines and you stop and lose all your momentum after you stop charge thus you have to build up speed again.
If exo is the counter to onos, then the onos has too many counters currently by the marines. I figured before that jps would be the counter, especially combined with a shotgun. But since you're figuring that exo is the counter. What exactly does the onos counter that the other lifeforms can't do? Or rather, at what job does the onos excell at that its worth its res aside from being a big bullseye with its sluggish movement and having to run back over and over?
Maybe its not fair of me to use the shotgun as a counter since the shotgun counters everything currently with enough weapon upgrades.
i sure hope the devs are asking these questions
If the Onos is simply meant to be a damage sponge for his teammates, well, the drawback to being a tank is that you are very likely to die in the process. The Onos is a very expensive investment to take that risk with.
If the Onos is simply meant to be a damage sponge for his teammates, well, the drawback to being a tank is that you are very likely to die in the process. The Onos is a very expensive investment to take that risk with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Onos needs to be the counter to exo, since he obviously is no longer a good counter against marine structures.
I think making minigun into medium damage, and giving onos the boneplate should do this.
Not to suggest everything is fine and people just need to L2P, a dual-minigun Exo going against an Onos in a 1v1 fight should indeed be a close call, if not in full favour of the Onos.
So yes it is sad to see the comparison of the marine 75 res tech VS the alien 75 res tech :(
The Exo was released a whole week ago ... and considering how little time there was to try balancing the Onos during PT, I'm surprised that marines haven't walked all over the aliens. Considering that both the performance improvements (which benefits marines more than aliens) and the Exo was added to the marine side, I find it surprising that the aliens are still managing to keep a positive win/loss ratio... Weird...
Anyhow, when it comes to the theoretical value of a game piece, you have to balance tactical and strategic usefulness.
The Exo is far more brutal in tactical situations than the Onos. Each minigun fires 10 25dps heavy damage shells, for 250 heavy dps (at W0 - at W3, that goes up to 325). A shotgun does 180 normal dps, so against aliens with armor left, the comparative-to-shotgun-dps is 375 (W0), or about twice as much as the shotgun. And a dual Exo does double that. 4 times the damage output of a shotgun.... The liftime of an Onos is about 1.5 sec against a single dual Exo. Not a good idea.
The Exo at A3 also has 570 armor (and no health), so aliens have to do 1140 damage or about 15 skulk bites...
The tradeoff is that the Exo is slow, can't go through phasegates, can't be beaconed and is surprisingly vulnerable to skulks and lerks (limited FOV helps). They also cannot build or repair each other. So if aliens can force the marine commander to beacon back his marines, the Exos can be brought down by large hordes of skulks, lerks and gorges.
The Onos is much more mobile and versatile than the Exo, and is thus less overpowering tactically.
Do note that an Onos that dies to an Exo chose to take the risk - unless cornered, an Onos can always avoid a battle with an Exo.
Not to suggest everything is fine and people just need to L2P, a dual-minigun Exo going against an Onos in a 1v1 fight should indeed be a close call, if not in full favour of the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
same can be said for marines
marines can weld exos, flamethrower marines can disable healing gorges energy, marines have nanoshield, macs can repair aswell.
An onos has to get in close to do damage, gorges cant keep up with a charging onos, and when gorges are so close behind an onos, they are easy pickings for marines/exo's especially if the onos dies
marines can weld exos, flamethrower marines can disable healing gorges energy, marines have nanoshield, macs can repair aswell.
An onos has to get in close to do damage, gorges cant keep up with a charging onos, and when gorges are so close behind an onos, they are easy pickings for marines/exo's especially if the onos dies<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it's all anecdotal evidence anyway. Not arguing that Onos don't need a buff. =]
To provoke a beacon, nearly the whole alienteam must be in the rine base to do fast enough damage ... and if the commander beacon ... you still won't have enough lifeforms in the hive to kill the exo ... espacially no HORDES of lerks, gorges and skulks ...
also the commander will ever have the opportunity to let the base die ... in nearly every case the exos should kill all hives faster than the alienteam the command stations
the only real option against exos at this moment is to spot them early enough and kill them on the way to the hive ...
In it's current state I feel he is too slow to close gaps on any marines in most combat situations and, as most of you have noted, very squishy for such a large target. I think map design plays a part in the slowness but also that charge just isn't that useful. Also, what would happen if you reduced his cost? Obviously more cost effective but would people play it over the fade?
Aliens don't have hive warp, and Onos are slow too considering you left the slowdown on carapace. They're also extremely weak against jetpacks which only costs 10 pres (20 pres cheaper than lerks). Sorry, but lerks are garbage against exosuits; using trailing spores is a death sentence and needles are just as bad. Even if you managed to get the marine commander to beacon, the exosuits can easily just as well hump an armory which repairs them at a ridiculous rate (or MAC orgy) until the foot/jp marines return. Which will be nearly instantaneous due to phase gates.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Onos is much more mobile and versatile than the Exo, and is thus less overpowering tactically.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Much more mobile and versatile." I strongly disagree. Besides charge that limits you to run in a straight path, they are not any more mobile than exosuits. No idea how you got that they're more "versatile" than exosuits. Onos tank? Barely. Kill structures faster? Exos do. Stomp? Completely ineffective to exosuits and jetpacks which all marines should have one or the other by the time stomp is researched.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do note that an Onos that dies to an Exo chose to take the risk - unless cornered, an Onos can always avoid a battle with an Exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such horrible logic to have when trying to balance a game.
There is a reason why onos are largely ignored by players except by those that are new to the game, because they're terrible at everything they do. The main culprit being that they have zero survivability and die too fast before they even had the chance to do anything remotely useful. Why should I blow 75 res down the drain when I can do better than a onos as a skulk. Skulks > onos. I end more games as a fade than onos too.
Anyhow, when it comes to the theoretical value of a game piece, you have to balance tactical and strategic usefulness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every game I see where Aliens win is because no player chose to go Onos; instead Fade/Skulk/Gorge. A single Skulk/Fade can take down a small group of Exos when it has leap/blink and adrenaline. I would love to see bone-armour back and possibly charge-damage once the Onos reaches a certain point. Most of the map layouts are twined paths that make it useless for escaping speedy Marines (whether they're running or jetpacking.)
I don't understand how you had no time to test it? You guys been testing the EXO for months now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do note that an Onos that dies to an Exo chose to take the risk - unless cornered, an Onos can always avoid a battle with an Exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Should I bother?
<b>Do:</b>
Give it the bone shield. That means invincible at the front (beside the parts on its legs without bones). Why not damage reduction? Because it is highly unintuitive. Making him invul on the front bones, makes it possible to add effects like bullets bouncing of, that scream at every noob: "Invul on the bone plates!"
But invul sounds op? No! It just introduces skill to the onos. You can't just run into a room and try to hit as many marines. You need to think about your positioning. Also the health and armor of the onos has to be decreased. 3 Marines should be enough to circle an onos so two can attack him from behind / the sides. Now you finally got an alien that has an useful and unique job and requires skill to be successful with.
Just imagine an onos sitting in a doorway and looking at you... Just looking at you. You can't damage it without GLs or Flamers or flanking. And it sits there and watches you.
<b>Don't:</b>
Don't ever increase the health/armor of the onos. That only leads to uselessness of LMGs.
Don't ever increase movement speed of the onos. Marines should always have the option to run away from it.
<b>Do:</b>
Give it the bone shield. That means invincible at the front (beside the parts on its legs without bones). Why not damage reduction? Because it is highly unintuitive. Making him invul on the front bones, makes it possible to add effects like bullets bouncing of, that scream at every noob: "Invul on the bone plates!"
But invul sounds op? No! It just introduces skill to the onos. You can't just run into a room and try to hit as many marines. You need to think about your positioning. Also the health and armor of the onos has to be decreased. 3 Marines should be enough to circle an onos so two can attack him from behind / the sides. Now you finally got an alien that has an useful and unique job and requires skill to be successful with.
Just imagine an onos sitting in a doorway and looking at you... Just looking at you. You can't damage it without GLs or Flamers or flanking. And it sits there and watches you.
<b>Don't:</b>
Don't ever increase the health/armor of the onos. That only leads to uselessness of LMGs.
Don't ever increase movement speed of the onos. Marines should always have the option to run away from it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1