One prototype lab, one upgrade
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
A trend I find disturbing is playing aliens and seeing an exo pop up somewhere, and being like ok, they decided to go exo, and then not even a minute later see jetpacks flying around.
While I don't think this should be impossible, it should be highly prohibitive. In NS1, as with many RTS games, the choice between which final tier of tech you went first was a big one. Were you going with the hit and miss jetpacks, or the slow and steady heavies? You had to choose wisely, because once you invested in one of them, you were going to need to drop a lot, and spend a lot, to make full use of that upgrade. Now the commander just researches both and lets his troops decide which gadget they want to use, essentially getting the best of both worlds.
My suggestion is as follows: when researching exo suits or jetpacks, the prototype lab at which the upgrade is performed becomes bound to that tech. A prototype lab which researches jetpacks can only supply users with jetpacks, and one that researches exos can only provide exo suits. Further upgrades to either of them woul be performed at the respective proto lab.
This will add an extra prohibitive cost to the final level of marine tech, hopefully delaying the appearance of one after the first appearance of the other.
While I don't think this should be impossible, it should be highly prohibitive. In NS1, as with many RTS games, the choice between which final tier of tech you went first was a big one. Were you going with the hit and miss jetpacks, or the slow and steady heavies? You had to choose wisely, because once you invested in one of them, you were going to need to drop a lot, and spend a lot, to make full use of that upgrade. Now the commander just researches both and lets his troops decide which gadget they want to use, essentially getting the best of both worlds.
My suggestion is as follows: when researching exo suits or jetpacks, the prototype lab at which the upgrade is performed becomes bound to that tech. A prototype lab which researches jetpacks can only supply users with jetpacks, and one that researches exos can only provide exo suits. Further upgrades to either of them woul be performed at the respective proto lab.
This will add an extra prohibitive cost to the final level of marine tech, hopefully delaying the appearance of one after the first appearance of the other.
Comments
In the same sense that lifeforms don't become *really* deadly unless you control 2-3 hives, protolabs should not bring about impending marine victory unless you've got 2-3 comm chairs.
While I agree on possible restrictions should marines turn out to be too strong, the more expensive price of hives are justified by the fact that you get spawning and healing for free along with it (marines need ips and armories for that). Drawback is that you're limited in those areas as marines can build more ips (for increased spawnrate) or remote armories seperated from ccs. Those things can also be aquired through crags and shifts I suppose, but you get the point.
Sorry but I think aliens losing a 2nd hive has much greater impact than marines losing 2nd cc.
Marines should be forced to hold atleast 2 cc's to get JP's, I agree with the idea others have mentioned that exo's should be 3rd CC.
Marines need more tech points to be able to have enough nanites to build the exo's, currently seeing them at 2 on maps with 5 tech points silly. They are meant to be repelling the invaders, JP's at 2nd CC makes sense..adds some mobility but if they want exo's you need to hold a thrid tech point.
I say go one further and limit the maximum upgrade level to tech points (so you cant get W3 or A3 unless you have 3 tech points), 2 points will get you W2 and A2.
I think the 1 protolab 1 upgrades a little of an issue as it will confuse players. That said there is an issue with seeing both so quickly, perhaps after one upgrades the other becomes slower to research. Increasing the research time seems like a way it could be balanced. Force 4-5 minutes between exos and JPs, either that or tie exo's to 3rd CC.
Marines should be forced to hold atleast 2 cc's to get JP's, I agree with the idea others have mentioned that exo's should be 3rd CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't that imply that exos are better than jetpacks? In my opinion, jetpacks are the superior tech, at least at the moment, and in any case, the two really should be seen as equal.
Marines should be forced to hold atleast 2 cc's to get JP's, I agree with the idea others have mentioned that exo's should be 3rd CC.
Marines need more tech points to be able to have enough nanites to build the exo's, currently seeing them at 2 on maps with 5 tech points silly. They are meant to be repelling the invaders, JP's at 2nd CC makes sense..adds some mobility but if they want exo's you need to hold a thrid tech point.
I say go one further and limit the maximum upgrade level to tech points (so you cant get W3 or A3 unless you have 3 tech points), 2 points will get you W2 and A2.
I think the 1 protolab 1 upgrades a little of an issue as it will confuse players. That said there is an issue with seeing both so quickly, perhaps after one upgrades the other becomes slower to research. Increasing the research time seems like a way it could be balanced. Force 4-5 minutes between exos and JPs, either that or tie exo's to 3rd CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is, I agree with what you're saying. I just wanted to point why the ccs and hives are different in tres cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1969636:date=Sep 1 2012, 11:49 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 1 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't that imply that exos are better than jetpacks? In my opinion, jetpacks are the superior tech, at least at the moment, and in any case, the two really should be seen as equal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, everybody is trying out the exos currently since its a completely new toy to play with, but at some point marines will go back to jps. Jetpacks did get a nerf in this patch so we have yet to see how powerful they still are compared to exos. Getting an exo has its upside and downsides, it isn't 10 pres and you lose alot of mobility (no pgs, no beacon, ...). Jetpacks has no disadvantages compared to vanilla marines and are relatively cheap so in the end, jps might be the superior tech. Jps did get a nerf, but I'd like to see something like an inability to equip heavy weapons or have the max ammo reduced while using a jp (so marine rifle and shotgun works fine, but you can't use gls/flamethrowers) rather than a price increase or any other nerfs.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'd say that it would be most easy to just decrease the max ammo that a jp marine can carry for the heavier weapons. And possibly reduce max armor as well. That all has to do with weight limitations for using a jp. Or you could just modify the liftoff speed depending on which weapon you carry. So you can go flamethrower/gl jper, but you'll be more vulnerable because of a reduced liftoff speed.
I'm not sure how many RTS games you've played but most of the time when I build a tank depot or barracks I can build multiple types of troops. Not sure where you're going with your logic here...
If anything I think Exo's should cost more than 20 res to research, maybe 40. Exo research is 5 res cheaper than JP research atm and that doesn't make sense to me. Or I really like Agiel's idea of possibly having the Exo requiring a robo in addition to the AA/CC. Aesthetically it makes a lot of sense and it would make JP tech optimal for midgame and designate exo to late game.
- Dual weapons on Exo
- JP upgrade research
- L3 weapons/armour
Should require 2 CC's for:
- Protolab (JP and Exo)
- L2 weapons/armour
- Dual weapons on Exo
- JP upgrade research
- L3 weapons/armour
Should require 2 CC's for:
- Protolab
- L2 weapons/armour<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. 3 CC for JP? That's going to lead to midgame alien domination. As rant stated above, the maps are built around 2 marine CC and 3 alien hive. Then the advantages come when you deny 3rd hive or 2nd cc.
- Dual weapons on Exo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this.
JP's have research that improves them (not yet implemented). My point was that JPs should appear at 2 CCs, upgradable at 3 CCs.
I'm not sure how many RTS games you've played but most of the time when I build a tank depot or barracks I can build multiple types of troops. Not sure where you're going with your logic here...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well admittedly I'm a bit behind popular RTS games. A good example exists in an RTS game which I particularly like, which is Supreme Commander. So, if you don't know it, in SupCom you have 3 "disciplines" lets call them. Air, Land, and Navy. Now you can tech into any and all of them, but the quality of the units you get out, is dependant on the amount of resources you put into each of them. You can go max tech in Land, but then your Air will be weak. You can try and tech up both Land and Air, but that will take a very long time, and you will be weaker in both of them, but have the utility of both.
In my opinion, the Exo and JP are two different disciplines, two different approaches. It NS1, it obviously wasn't feasible to tech both heavies and jetpacks straight away. First of all, researching either one was very expensive, and secondly, you then had to spend a lot of res dropping the relevant gadget for your marines.
Now this may not be what NS2 is going for, and from what I've seen, I don't think it is. NS2 doesn't seem to be about choices, it seems to be more about getting as much res as possible and making all tech available to your players as quickly as possible. At least this is how marines seem to be.