Analyzing the problems with EXOs (or rather MECHs)
weezl
Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
[edit] Forgot to mention: I'm a huge fan of this new playpiece, it's really cool and awesome UWE! [/edit]
Now that I've played several games in b217 where I Com with EXOs, myself have EXO and dual-EXO, and also a couple alien games vs EXO, I have some topics for discussion...
#1. Functionality:
Comparing NS1 exo to the NS2 mech...
In NS1 the exo <u><b><i>suit</i></b> didn't take away any functionality, it only added protection</u>.
The NS2 mech takes away several key functionalities. Actually, it takes away ALL OF THEM - except moving/shooting/killing.
You cannot: build, equip/use welder to repair, command, and very crucially - transport yourself fast (PG and Beacon).
On the other hand, onoses are a MUCH lesser danger cos there's no devour, and stomp doesn't work.
#2. TechPoints:
Requiring two techpoints for marines has been tried and tested in the earliest public alpha build. Then, you needed 2 CCs for upgrading any CC to lvl2, which unlocked Adv.Armory and ArmsLab upgrades lvl2 (and also lvl3 iirc). This was win-or-lose crucial because with AA you could research GL and the wallhacking, near-instakilling, viewblinding, lightsaber of death also known as FT.
The problem was that marines rushed east (on rockdown) to powerbuild that 2nd CC, immidiately when it's finished you upgrade the base one and recycle the 2nd, after which you turtle base until you got GL & FT, afterwhich the aliens had NO CHANCE. (most times I deliberately skipped getting FT cos of it's imbaness, and to have a more interesting game)
Ahhh, what memories...!
Current situation:
Now UWE re-introduce this tech point control mechanic AGAIN, but this time the tech-tree updates according to the amount of CCs that are up.
I personally am strongly against this mechanic! Marines in NS1 were <b><u>not hard-dependent on any point in the map</u></b>, only soft-dependent on RTs. Even less were they hard-dependent on having <u><b>any amount of any structure greater than 1</b></u> (PG is the sole exception to this statement for obvious reasons).
Aliens were the ones being hard-dependent (tied) to specific map spots and having 3 upgrade chambers! (soft/hard-dependence on chambers can be discussed, combination of both)
This created great asymmetry between the many, weak, nomadic, flexible marines and the few, fast, strong, but very non-nomadic aliens.
Aliens played to take control of the map to tech and secondarily resources - marines played to tech by controlling resources and keeping the aliens weak by denying map control, but losing this denial (3rd hivespot) didn't <i><b>cost</b></i> marines anything, it only made aliens stronger (too strong) - marines still had a chance to hit back with full strength!
The problem now is keeping two bases up/alive. Even if this is accomplished the aliens have lots of res to spam onos, and lifeforms in general.
And "gathering strength" while turtling on 2-3 RTs is way too slow compared to aliens, they will win the war of attrition.
(This worked in NS1 and gave marine a chance at making a comeback, which didn't succeed most times though, but atleast there was a fair chance!)
And even if aliens won't defeat 1 out of 2 bases, and marines manage to save for decent/good equipment and and a couple arcs, there are THREE more problems:
-Moving out means less defense in the 2 bases. The team becomes too thinly spread to defend 3 things - aliens only need to attack ONE OF THEM!
-Gorges can with bilebomb easily disrupt either the ARCs or one of the bases.
-PowerNodes become a HUGE and too easy Achilles-heel!
#3. PowerNodes
In the described scenario, PNs are too weak and absolutely way too critical.
In NS1 there was no ONE SINGLE crucial building to kill. Aliens went for AA and/or Proto (sometimes PG, Obs, ArmsLab) , which dealt a (big) blow to marines but they still recovered most of the time. But it wasn't a <b>crippling</b> blow! And there were many things to choose from to attack.
In NS2 there is 90% the powernode! This is monotonous for aliens and a big worry for marines.
In my perception, the described scenario happens if marines aren't the superior team, but the game is even. It happens faster when marines play slightly worse than aliens, e.g. go rambo with exo and die. If marines are the superior team then most likely they ROFLSTOMP aliens with MECHs and everybody think they're imba.
Sidenote: The described scenario is almost identical to the one in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117926" target="_blank">The current IMBA-Lerk problem</a>
Workaround for marine teams:
Basically, DO NOT GET MECH!
As com, skip this upgrade, better to keep your marines fully able and mobile (even more mobile with JP).
Unless you are dominating the aliens and want to have fun finishing them off, getting MECHs (without near-perfect teamplay) will in most cases weaken your team!
Suggestions:
1. Put the NS1 <u><b>suit</b></u> into the game being a middleground between Foot-Marine and MECH. Let the mech be a really end game technology but which has HUGE tradeoffs.
2. (maybe) Let phasegates be <b>upgradeable</b> into something 50% taller/wider which can teleport a MECH. This needs a tradeoff though, in my idea: it takes like 5-10 seconds to transport the MECH while it slowly goes into the PG plane on one end and slowly comes of the plane on the other end (kinda StarGate style), being immobile in the process. This would also be very cool. (oh, and if something goes wrong on one end, the PG plane persists until the transfer is complete)
3a. (maybe) Give an upgrade (5-10 res) to each power dependent structure that gives it a limited supply to support functionality. It may be time-limited, but may more interestingly be number-of-uses limited; e.g. an obs could be able to beacon 1-2 times, an IP spawn 1-2 additional players, an armory heal up 2-4 players fully and support 1-2 purchases, arms lab could slowly lose upgrade levels with time.
3b. Introduce a secondary powerpack which is stronger, (much) more expensive and can power a whole room or a radius (limited by a rooms edges).
Optionally, it would explode and deal big damage when destroyed.
4. (probably for a thread of it's own) Reworking the whole powernode system!
Don't get me wrong, I really like the concept of it, just that the implementation is evidently bad.
I propose not having it be a map-specific thing but a part of the marine force sent in to clean up the facility.
E.g. let it be an expensive upgrade on the CC and as a stand-alone structure in the field, to not f-up the RT play keep the map specific ones as now, but now this idea is just a repeat of the above one :P
Now that I've played several games in b217 where I Com with EXOs, myself have EXO and dual-EXO, and also a couple alien games vs EXO, I have some topics for discussion...
#1. Functionality:
Comparing NS1 exo to the NS2 mech...
In NS1 the exo <u><b><i>suit</i></b> didn't take away any functionality, it only added protection</u>.
The NS2 mech takes away several key functionalities. Actually, it takes away ALL OF THEM - except moving/shooting/killing.
You cannot: build, equip/use welder to repair, command, and very crucially - transport yourself fast (PG and Beacon).
On the other hand, onoses are a MUCH lesser danger cos there's no devour, and stomp doesn't work.
#2. TechPoints:
Requiring two techpoints for marines has been tried and tested in the earliest public alpha build. Then, you needed 2 CCs for upgrading any CC to lvl2, which unlocked Adv.Armory and ArmsLab upgrades lvl2 (and also lvl3 iirc). This was win-or-lose crucial because with AA you could research GL and the wallhacking, near-instakilling, viewblinding, lightsaber of death also known as FT.
The problem was that marines rushed east (on rockdown) to powerbuild that 2nd CC, immidiately when it's finished you upgrade the base one and recycle the 2nd, after which you turtle base until you got GL & FT, afterwhich the aliens had NO CHANCE. (most times I deliberately skipped getting FT cos of it's imbaness, and to have a more interesting game)
Ahhh, what memories...!
Current situation:
Now UWE re-introduce this tech point control mechanic AGAIN, but this time the tech-tree updates according to the amount of CCs that are up.
I personally am strongly against this mechanic! Marines in NS1 were <b><u>not hard-dependent on any point in the map</u></b>, only soft-dependent on RTs. Even less were they hard-dependent on having <u><b>any amount of any structure greater than 1</b></u> (PG is the sole exception to this statement for obvious reasons).
Aliens were the ones being hard-dependent (tied) to specific map spots and having 3 upgrade chambers! (soft/hard-dependence on chambers can be discussed, combination of both)
This created great asymmetry between the many, weak, nomadic, flexible marines and the few, fast, strong, but very non-nomadic aliens.
Aliens played to take control of the map to tech and secondarily resources - marines played to tech by controlling resources and keeping the aliens weak by denying map control, but losing this denial (3rd hivespot) didn't <i><b>cost</b></i> marines anything, it only made aliens stronger (too strong) - marines still had a chance to hit back with full strength!
The problem now is keeping two bases up/alive. Even if this is accomplished the aliens have lots of res to spam onos, and lifeforms in general.
And "gathering strength" while turtling on 2-3 RTs is way too slow compared to aliens, they will win the war of attrition.
(This worked in NS1 and gave marine a chance at making a comeback, which didn't succeed most times though, but atleast there was a fair chance!)
And even if aliens won't defeat 1 out of 2 bases, and marines manage to save for decent/good equipment and and a couple arcs, there are THREE more problems:
-Moving out means less defense in the 2 bases. The team becomes too thinly spread to defend 3 things - aliens only need to attack ONE OF THEM!
-Gorges can with bilebomb easily disrupt either the ARCs or one of the bases.
-PowerNodes become a HUGE and too easy Achilles-heel!
#3. PowerNodes
In the described scenario, PNs are too weak and absolutely way too critical.
In NS1 there was no ONE SINGLE crucial building to kill. Aliens went for AA and/or Proto (sometimes PG, Obs, ArmsLab) , which dealt a (big) blow to marines but they still recovered most of the time. But it wasn't a <b>crippling</b> blow! And there were many things to choose from to attack.
In NS2 there is 90% the powernode! This is monotonous for aliens and a big worry for marines.
In my perception, the described scenario happens if marines aren't the superior team, but the game is even. It happens faster when marines play slightly worse than aliens, e.g. go rambo with exo and die. If marines are the superior team then most likely they ROFLSTOMP aliens with MECHs and everybody think they're imba.
Sidenote: The described scenario is almost identical to the one in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117926" target="_blank">The current IMBA-Lerk problem</a>
Workaround for marine teams:
Basically, DO NOT GET MECH!
As com, skip this upgrade, better to keep your marines fully able and mobile (even more mobile with JP).
Unless you are dominating the aliens and want to have fun finishing them off, getting MECHs (without near-perfect teamplay) will in most cases weaken your team!
Suggestions:
1. Put the NS1 <u><b>suit</b></u> into the game being a middleground between Foot-Marine and MECH. Let the mech be a really end game technology but which has HUGE tradeoffs.
2. (maybe) Let phasegates be <b>upgradeable</b> into something 50% taller/wider which can teleport a MECH. This needs a tradeoff though, in my idea: it takes like 5-10 seconds to transport the MECH while it slowly goes into the PG plane on one end and slowly comes of the plane on the other end (kinda StarGate style), being immobile in the process. This would also be very cool. (oh, and if something goes wrong on one end, the PG plane persists until the transfer is complete)
3a. (maybe) Give an upgrade (5-10 res) to each power dependent structure that gives it a limited supply to support functionality. It may be time-limited, but may more interestingly be number-of-uses limited; e.g. an obs could be able to beacon 1-2 times, an IP spawn 1-2 additional players, an armory heal up 2-4 players fully and support 1-2 purchases, arms lab could slowly lose upgrade levels with time.
3b. Introduce a secondary powerpack which is stronger, (much) more expensive and can power a whole room or a radius (limited by a rooms edges).
Optionally, it would explode and deal big damage when destroyed.
4. (probably for a thread of it's own) Reworking the whole powernode system!
Don't get me wrong, I really like the concept of it, just that the implementation is evidently bad.
I propose not having it be a map-specific thing but a part of the marine force sent in to clean up the facility.
E.g. let it be an expensive upgrade on the CC and as a stand-alone structure in the field, to not f-up the RT play keep the map specific ones as now, but now this idea is just a repeat of the above one :P
Comments
Also some NS1 comparisons are incorrect, e.g. marines did have to hold more than one spot in NS1 i.e. were hard-dependent on them; there was usually 2 or 3 spots to hold: MS plus 1 hive to neglect the game-winning 3rd hive chamber and abilities or a 2-hive lockdown. Both were completely different to play, but both had in common that a lost pg meant a marine loss most of the times. It was never about just hold MS and run around fight for RTs, map control has always been the most crucial thing in NS1, and it is also in NS2. <i>The tradeoff not being able to beacon exos or having them use PGs is the most interesting feature of this class in my opinion.</i>
And powernodes, well yes, they have been discussed alot. It's there for the atmosphere and UWE won't remove them. So better get used to it :)
The node rush isn't that more powerful than other base rushes in NS1 in my opinion. In the same time you could take down 1-2 other crucial structures. And yes, a single structure could definetaly cripple a team in NS1. You might even argue that the loss of a power node doesn't hurt marines at all unless they get dominated - the same effect an obs rush has had. When your rines come back and shoot the aliens on your node down - what did you lose beside the time for 1 marine welding it? No upgrade has been delayed, no res sunk etc. Remember that I don't talk about pub games when 10 onos rush in, silly to use that for balance talk. Hell, it's even nice to have a quicker game ender than 2 hour drawn out turtle rounds in NS1 when marines won by aliens F4ing.
#1: It is important to balance the exo. If there is no down side everyone would get one. This would be very boring. Having to equip the team with brain is much better. The tradeoffs of the exo are very interesting. You need to think when to get one and where to go. This is an important decision and I like it. That the onos is to weak is another problem. He needs his bone shield to be able to fight with a higher skill ceiling. But giving the exo the ability to use the pg would absolutely kill the balance.
#2: This is an RTS/FPS Hybrid. The team with more map control has an advantage. This is how its meant to be. Also it weakens turtle fests, where marines could hold out with higher tech in one base. This was never fun. Binding only late game tech like JP and Exo to the second CC is absolutely fine. If you can't even get a second CC secured, the aliens doing something better as you and should have the advantage. The game only starts to get interesting when you have to think how you can split up your troops to defend both bases. Turtling in one base isn't that demanding on the intelligence of the com. What I want to say with this is: The need for 2 bases or the tradeoffs of the exo generate challenges that make the game interesting. It is not unbalanced only because it is a challenge. Also: no additional asymmetry needed in this regard.
#3: I like power nodes in its current state. They are also a turtle stopper and generating a challenge for the com. Either you build power packs or a second base or you have to look very oft at your base or you are in danger of losing the game fast. The choice is yours. Pay resources or get the risk. I don't find anything bad about this. It is your choice as com how you want to play. There are enough counters to power node rushs.
€dit: Aww... blind could voice it much better than me. :(
Eventually the Exo patrolman leaves assuming victory is near and that's when the lone Skulk jumps in to kill vitals. It's always never what it seems.
In the described scenario, PNs are too weak and absolutely way too critical.
In NS1 there was no ONE SINGLE crucial building to kill. Aliens went for AA and/or Proto (sometimes PG, Obs, ArmsLab) , which dealt a (big) blow to marines but they still recovered most of the time. But it wasn't a <b>crippling</b> blow! And there were many things to choose from to attack.
In NS2 there is 90% the powernode! This is monotonous for aliens and a big worry for marines.
4. (probably for a thread of it's own) Reworking the whole powernode system!
Don't get me wrong, I really like the concept of it, just that the implementation is evidently bad.
I propose not having it be a map-specific thing but a part of the marine force sent in to clean up the facility.
E.g. let it be an expensive upgrade on the CC and as a stand-alone structure in the field, to not f-up the RT play keep the map specific ones as now, but now this idea is just a repeat of the above one :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you and I wanted to add in something i was thinking about. UWE will most likely not change power nodes. Way too late in the beta process for such a big change unfortunately. So i was wondering, what if destroying the power node has the same effect as when i unplugg my laptop from the wall. You dont lose everything, it kicks on an internal battery and reduces performance to save power.
Simply put why not have power nodes being destroyed slow down all structure abilities by 50% or more. Upgrade time, spawn times, ammo regen, cool downs, phase limit per second increased and anything affected. This way marines can still respond, not being stopped int their tracks, but still feel the pain of no power node.
<!--quoteo(post=1969018:date=Aug 30 2012, 10:14 PM:name=blind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blind @ Aug 30 2012, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the immobility as tradeoff, this grants new tactics, even viable ones for public games. Some of them were even used at day 1 of the patch. We should wait how this evolves before judging on guesses and early conclusions imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do agree that weaknesses help generating new tactics. However, I'm not sure whether the tactical and strategical challenges that come up are necessary the most interesting ones.
The lack of mobility and versatility means that you need to have a lot of the strategy locked down very much the moment you tech to exos and even more so once your exos are purchased. After that you lose a big share of adaptibility because your big investments are unable to respond with anything else than firepower and durability.
Also, the way exos seem to work, some people are going to have to sit out of fights and do guard duty, welder supporting and builder duty. While I can live with not getting to contribute in every fight, but it seems to go against the general desing of NS2 where nobody is really expected to sacrifice their fun for the sake of the team.
There can be immense challenges in reading the game correctly and making the right call when you're going exos, but I'm not sure if NS2 with multiple hard-to-read res pools on both sides is really a suitable place for such strategical calls. I think there's a risk that you're taking huge guesses and hoping the exos somehow pull through as the game unfolds while still having very little chance to adjust or adapt due to the exo limitations.
As for giving exos time to grow, I do agree that a feature always needs time. However, the game is damn close to release. I'd much rather give the exos a good start before the game goes gold, it's going to be a lot more difficult to rethink the concept afterwards. It's good to give it a lot of though right now rather than a month later.
<!--quoteo(post=1969176:date=Aug 31 2012, 07:45 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 31 2012, 07:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My 2 cent on the OP:
#1: It is important to balance the exo. If there is no down side everyone would get one. This would be very boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the usual RTS standards, if the aliens are foolish enough to give the rines enough res to field a full team of doomsday devices they very much deserve to lose. I can somewhat accept that the res model isn't working perfect in every case and some extra adjustment is necessary though.
The biggest thing which I like in exos, is their ability to project power. Place one exo with dual gun upgrade in base with armory, and it'll give the team enough time to respond to nearly every kind of threat. The marine commander can even beacon the team out, assuming that they can return to the remote base with PG, so that the lone exo in the remote base won't be alone for long.
Also it's great that the exos can't build and they can't weld. This means that the exos always need light marines as their support and this encourages good team play. I've found it really fun to request an escort from the main base to the remote base, so that I don't need to walk alone there with my vulnerable exo.
As said, the only thing I'm worried is that the aliens are simply too powerful in the late game if the marines are stuck with just two bases.
Making marines not require two points for proto upgrades is dumb and just allows for even longer turtling games. It also forces aliens to have to kill their main base if they want to cripple JP/Exo production. If you can't hold at least two control points on the map, you aren't going to win from an RTS standpoint, and your players are probably worse than the other team if you got there in the first place.
Going just JPs isn't quite as good anymore as JPs were nerfed (thank god) and aliens can pump out fades now, so killing the good fade isn't a gg anymore.
Your suggestions are just unworkable for 1.0. They don't have time to design, model, animate, and test an entirely new suit for marines or a new phase gate. Using the current exosuits requires teamwork and player diversity ("welder ######" on the exos), which makes the games a hell of a lot more interesting than if they were just a straight upgrade. Not to say that they're perfect right now, but the current limitations on exos are, in my opinion, well thought out and shouldn't be changed. It's like you're posting that Colossus in SC2 should be able to hit air units as well and can be warped in like gateway units. You shouldn't be able to just spam one type of weapon/upgrade and win the game. It needs to have weaknesses.
The same scenario in an unorganised setting would be completely different, as 50% of the alien team would be bouncing off walls screaming "OMG EXXOOOOOOoooo000)()()())(S1!".
The same scenario in an unorganised setting would be completely different, as 50% of the alien team would be bouncing off walls screaming "OMG EXXOOOOOOoooo000)()()())(S1!".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like a good team and a bad team...
Well, I would prefer to think that organisation is the guiding decider of whether a team is good or bad, and not their accuracy percentile or how fast they can wall jump.
<!--quoteo(post=1969475:date=Aug 31 2012, 07:14 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 31 2012, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I would prefer to think that organisation is the guiding decider of whether a team is good or bad, and not their accuracy percentile or how fast they can wall jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can be as organized as the 3rd reich but it wont do you any good if you cant hit the enemy.
#2) Flat out wrong. Protolab tech requiring a second TP works great in NS2. At worst, It give aliens alternative ways to shutdown marine tech and forces marines out of their turtle bubble by forcing them to defend multiple areas of the map. At best, it does that and plays very similar to NS1 because you have to deny hive spots in order to not lose the game.
Onos on the other hand could use devour again. I think we should test Onos being able to devour an Exo too.
Onos on the other hand could use devour again. I think we should test Onos being able to devour an Exo too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To me, Exo is an anti-onos unit. Why should Onos be able to one-shot it?
Even better, how the hell does an Onos fit something as big as itself in its mouth?
Even better, how the hell does an Onos fit something as big as itself in its mouth?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heavy Armors were pretty big and the Onos had np eating them. I think it should be tested out to see if it works.
Onos on the other hand could use devour again. I think we should test Onos being able to devour an Exo too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Devour worked in NS1 because the graphics were borderline comical and not meant to be uber realistic. An ability like devour has no place in a modern, serious FPS.
I disagree and think that your reasoning for not wanting to see devour in NS2 is absurd. It worked in NS1 for a number of reasons.
- it was a powerful attack which took one marine out of the picture for a small time regardless of how many infantry portals they had built.
- it forced mid to late game marines to work as a team. Do you like that Heavy armor, HMG or Grenade launcher? Well if you get eaten you will need your team to rescue you before you turn into Onos poop.
- It was a 1 Hive ability and helped enable come backs for the alien team late game.
I don't see a problem with letting the one Minigun Exo be able to build junk with it's free hand. It would provide a tradeoff (Dual Exo gives up utility for more dakka, as opposed to just being better) while still having weaknesses that Marines don't. (Blindspots, health consists entirely of armor so it can't be med-pack'd, slow as heck, etc)
Edit: Forgot that the Fade does less damage to structures. And the Onos can't travel via vent. Derp. Point still stands though.
the exo shouldnt be able to jump imo...
They use thrusters to lift themselves. If they couldn't jump, then they could easily get stuck or be unable to pass by certain areas.
I would like to try that too. The Phase gate and beacon limitations are pretty huge. Letting the Exo Weld may work.
<!--quoteo(post=1975947:date=Sep 11 2012, 11:40 PM:name=Mr R0YB0T 0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr R0YB0T 0 @ Sep 11 2012, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to try that too. The Phase gate and beacon limitations are pretty huge. Letting the Exo Weld may work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, let one handed Exo build or at least let them buy the ability to built from an armory for 5res.