I don't know what the solution is, but I'll agree that it's damn frustrating. Biting with a lerk is comparatively easy - there is much more tolerance to hit, it seems to me. I would even be happier if the skulk bite damage was reduced in exchanged for a better hit box - it would mean I could return to better movement. Perhaps:
<!--quoteo(post=1964472:date=Aug 17 2012, 02:59 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Aug 17 2012, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->skulk movement is broken, and for a few reasons exploitable. Basically all you do is do some rather easy jumps for a while and then you get 20 speed for x amount of time depending on how long you do it. It's really just boring and unintuitive physics. I have to lift my mouse and it's a workout to do it as much as some I know can but the payoff is equivalent for a celerity skulk with leap, and being able to confuse the ###### out of any marines you run into because you can go from start to max speed faster than any racecar. I've made a video here showing how crazy skulk movement can be in 216:
IMO movement should be changed to how it was in HL1. The only met limitation should be player skill and map design, just like aim. Obviously you could go so fast as it is hard to control, and speed has less use in combat. Give skulk bhop and a better iteration of walljumping, give fades the smooth blink, marines consistent speed and no crazy movement slowdowns, etc. Let's see what they do about it in 217. As for the bite cone, inverted cone idea is the best by far. skulks should have an advantage on marines point-blank, that's how it is. Currently it's better to learn the range and keep at the maximum because it's easier to track marines jumping around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow that is insane!
Are you using a script or macro or something for that? I can't get the timing or motion right at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1964720:date=Aug 18 2012, 12:36 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Aug 18 2012, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what the solution is, but I'll agree that it's damn frustrating. Biting with a lerk is comparatively easy - there is much more tolerance to hit, it seems to me. I would even be happier if the skulk bite damage was reduced in exchanged for a better hit box - it would mean I could return to better movement. Perhaps:
No. Even 4 bites lends a huge, huge advantage to marines. Those numbers would be insane.
I'd rather have skulk bite harder to use and more powerful (aka what it is now) than easier to use and weaker (what is being suggested). I think you can keep current damage values and correct the damage cones into something like rectangles unless there is a specific reason we're using cones in the first place. If there is a reason to use cones instead of rectangles, please share.
<!--quoteo(post=1964806:date=Aug 19 2012, 09:38 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 19 2012, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. Even 4 bites lends a huge, huge advantage to marines. Those numbers would be insane.
I'd rather have skulk bite harder to use and more powerful (aka what it is now) than easier to use and weaker (what is being suggested). I think you can keep current damage values and correct the damage cones into something like rectangles unless there is a specific reason we're using cones in the first place. If there is a reason to use cones instead of rectangles, please share.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
Fixing the hit cone wont make the skulk that op'd it will just mean he is more likely to miss shotes from further away but hit when he is at your feet. Really what most of us would expect to happen (from either marine or alien perspective)...after all melee means your strongest up close. UWE melee currently mens your crap right up close but great if you stay about 1 m off your opponent.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1963789:date=Aug 16 2012, 05:32 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 16 2012, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963789"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*edit* another thing, i saw a screenshot of a hitreg tool in another thread and it looked like the skulk bite comprised 9 overlapping pyramids/tetrahedrons instead of a single cone.
why? it would be extremely easy to create a single cone hit box.
just make it detect in a circular or rectangular cone (non-occluded objects within |r| distance of bite cone orientation vector, give priority to enemy models), perhaps make the cone extend from the rear of the skulk so as to make the detection area bigger than 0 at the mouth, then discard hits from behind the mouth.
what is gained from splitting the hit things into 9 cones?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The crucial point is that there is no way of knowing if an object is occluded or not without tracing through the collision world. As entities can obscure each other, the code can get a bit hairy trying to do that. It turn out to be far easier to just throw a box through the world to find out if anything is there.
Using a single box means that you risk having your box get stuck on geometry on the edges though, or biting the armory instead of the juicy marine. So the box is split into 9, and the best target from all targets detected are used.
Which achieves pretty much the same thing, in a way that's easier to implement (at least in the Spark engine).
<!--quoteo(post=1964868:date=Aug 19 2012, 05:57 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Aug 19 2012, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The crucial point is that there is no way of knowing if an object is occluded or not without tracing through the collision world. As entities can obscure each other, the code can get a bit hairy trying to do that. It turn out to be far easier to just throw a box through the world to find out if anything is there.
Using a single box means that you risk having your box get stuck on geometry on the edges though, or biting the armory instead of the juicy marine. So the box is split into 9, and the best target from all targets detected are used.
Which achieves pretty much the same thing, in a way that's easier to implement (at least in the Spark engine).
/Mats<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That makes sense...but why not 5x5 does it greatly impact server performance having more or fewer (hit reg issues aside)?
Why does the bite cone need to narrow so much at the skulks mouth? Could the bite cone be flipped so that bites at 0.1m are easier to land than bites at 0.4m? Currently the hit boxes are about 33$ wider at almost the furthest point from the skulks mouth...it should be flipped so the attack modifier so to speak increases as you get closer (to the point of collision) .
Also why do the bite cones appear to start in the middle of the skulk, would it not make more sense to have them all start at his jaw and decrease in area of effect and not increase?
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1964882:date=Aug 19 2012, 11:29 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Aug 19 2012, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That makes sense...but why not 5x5 does it greatly impact server performance having more or fewer (hit reg issues aside)?
Why does the bite cone need to narrow so much at the skulks mouth? Could the bite cone be flipped so that bites at 0.1m are easier to land than bites at 0.4m? Currently the hit boxes are about 33$ wider at almost the furthest point from the skulks mouth...it should be flipped so the attack modifier so to speak increases as you get closer (to the point of collision) .
Also why do the bite cones appear to start in the middle of the skulk, would it not make more sense to have them all start at his jaw and decrease in area of effect and not increase?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A trace is fairly cheap - the extra traces costs about 20 microseconds each (the first one is more expensive due to lazy physics updating), and the amount of melee attacks in the game isn't big enough to worry about.
The narrow-at-the-mouth will go away in the next patch - it will be reverted to the same width at base and at end.
The reason for why they appear in the middle is because humans are bipeds - we don't expect that turning our body will rotate our viewpoint. So when you rotate your viewpoint, you expect your eyes to stay in (rougly) the same spot in space.
That's not actually true of something like a skulk or Onos - if they rotate their body, their eyes would be shifting around the center of their body by quite a lot.
As humans playing a computer game, that sucks. So what all computer games that I know of does, is to place the eyes in the center of the body. This does have some problems, as every skulk trying to sneak a peak around a corner knows - you need to expose half your body to get your viewpoint around the corner.
And when it comes to biting (actually, all attacks - check where marine actually shoots their bullets from. Marine looks DO kill) the way that feels best is to start tracing your attack from your eyes. Which is located in the middle of your body.
<!--quoteo(post=1964888:date=Aug 19 2012, 09:07 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Aug 19 2012, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A trace is fairly cheap - the extra traces costs about 20 microseconds each (the first one is more expensive due to lazy physics updating), and the amount of melee attacks in the game isn't big enough to worry about.
The narrow-at-the-mouth will go away in the next patch - it will be reverted to the same width at base and at end.
The reason for why they appear in the middle is because humans are bipeds - we don't expect that turning our body will rotate our viewpoint. So when you rotate your viewpoint, you expect your eyes to stay in (rougly) the same spot in space.
That's not actually true of something like a skulk or Onos - if they rotate their body, their eyes would be shifting around the center of their body by quite a lot.
As humans playing a computer game, that sucks. So what all computer games that I know of does, is to place the eyes in the center of the body. This does have some problems, as every skulk trying to sneak a peak around a corner knows - you need to expose half your body to get your viewpoint around the corner.
And when it comes to biting (actually, all attacks - check where marine actually shoots their bullets from. Marine looks DO kill) the way that feels best is to start tracing your attack from your eyes. Which is located in the middle of your body.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Awesome Matso greatly appreciate these responses and its really helpful info. Great news about the shape of the cones no longer being narrower at the mouth from the next patch. Will make things a hell of a lot more logical as a skulk and hopefully more rewarding for the hard efforts of getting into melee range. Thanks for the info on the cones, I just wondered if 3x3 was chosen for performance or simply because it seems to address all issues just by breaking into 9 boxes, sounds like the later which is good to know.
The cones from the middle being due to the base model being human is an interesting and can see how it would work for a marine model being smaller in topographical view so any issues are negligible but with the strange arse shapes of some of the aliens it look a lot funnier...any plans to consider offsetting the boxes to get around the whole corner issue (either long or short term) or is it simply too much additional work given the varying alien lifeforms?
Thanks matso, it really means a lot to see the kind of clarification you added to this thread. Also really pleased to see the bitecone will become a cylinder, should make skulking much more intuitive. I guess we'll just see what impact it has on balance and take it from there...
<!--quoteo(post=1964922:date=Aug 19 2012, 10:37 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Aug 19 2012, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964922"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->20 ms x 8 extra traces is already 160ms :o<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Microseconds, not milliseconds. So 20us x 8 = 160us = .16ms
<!--quoteo(post=1964735:date=Aug 18 2012, 12:41 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Aug 18 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow that is insane!
Are you using a script or macro or something for that? I can't get the timing or motion right at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It only takes a bit of practice Typhon, I usually practice in glasshall way on summit, and in the same area on docking (and a bit closer to the hive). But he is still a bit more consistent than I am, I end up doing a figure-8 type of technique after a while or else i start to mess up.
<!--quoteo(post=1964934:date=Aug 19 2012, 11:15 AM:name=Syknik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syknik @ Aug 19 2012, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It only takes a bit of practice Typhon, I usually practice in glasshall way on summit, and in the same area on docking (and a bit closer to the hive). But he is still a bit more consistent than I am, I end up doing a figure-8 type of technique after a while or else i start to mess up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are you strafing in midair? i always start drifiting and mess up because i'm not used to strafing in conjunction with walljumps.
<!--quoteo(post=1964888:date=Aug 19 2012, 06:07 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Aug 19 2012, 06:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A trace is fairly cheap - the extra traces costs about 20 microseconds each (the first one is more expensive due to lazy physics updating), and the amount of melee attacks in the game isn't big enough to worry about.
The narrow-at-the-mouth will go away in the next patch - it will be reverted to the same width at base and at end.
The reason for why they appear in the middle is because humans are bipeds - we don't expect that turning our body will rotate our viewpoint. So when you rotate your viewpoint, you expect your eyes to stay in (rougly) the same spot in space.
That's not actually true of something like a skulk or Onos - if they rotate their body, their eyes would be shifting around the center of their body by quite a lot.
As humans playing a computer game, that sucks. So what all computer games that I know of does, is to place the eyes in the center of the body. This does have some problems, as every skulk trying to sneak a peak around a corner knows - you need to expose half your body to get your viewpoint around the corner.
And when it comes to biting (actually, all attacks - check where marine actually shoots their bullets from. Marine looks DO kill) the way that feels best is to start tracing your attack from your eyes. Which is located in the middle of your body.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1964366:date=Aug 17 2012, 02:52 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Aug 17 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but I cant see how you can say its harder to hit objects further than closer to a skulk, maths lessons are needed yes but perhaps on your side of the fence as your arguments flawed. The hit zone encompasses a greater area (simple geometry here nothing complicated) in a top down cross section. Take a 1 inch cross section stepping out from the skulks nose to the end of its hit zone...total up the amount of hit zone contained within each inch, there is more space in the cross sections further from the skulks nose than closer. Coupled with the increased difficulty when the marines within 0.1 m (jumping over/around skulk etc) as its easier to get out of frame (again simple maths based on perspective (object has to travel further upwards the greater distance from the source to go out of the field of view).
Bloody programmable calculators and piss poor education systems are dumbing down the youngens I swear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, I'm not that good in technical english. Thats why I have problems to describe the effect in an easy way. Lets try one more time:
Think of, that you look on your screen and play NS2. In the game world, you see a 2 dimensional square that is 1m x 1m. This square is 20m from you away. Say, this square takes up 10 x 10 pixels on your computer screen in the real world. Now you move closer to that square. If that square is now only 2m from you away, it may take 100x100 pixels on your screen. (The numbers aren't true to scale! But) It will take more pixels on your screen the nearer it gets. matso has stated, that he will change the bite cone to a bite-cuboid. So imagine, that the far-away square is the end of your bite-hitbox and the near square is the beginning of your bite-hitbox. Biting a marine standing near to you, would be possible to hit from the center of your screen to 50pixel in every direction. Biting a marine standing far away (20m is to far, but just imagine such a big bite-hitbox in this case.) would only count as hit, if he was 5 pixel from the center of your screen.
This also applies in shorter ranges. So having a bite-<u>cone</u> is essentially having a cuboid on your computer screen. Because no matter how far the marine is away, you hit him when he is only X pixel from the center of your screen away.
That is what I meant with considering the perspective. If it is really changed to a cuboid in the next patch, it will take way less skill to hit marines that are nearer. It may just be enough to have him on your screen in order to hit him. With the cone, the hit-area was a fixed pixel-distance from the center of your screen. No matter how far away or near the marine was.
Sorry that I can't explain it better. I can only hope, that someone with better english-skills can understand me and explain it more easy.
---
On the other topic, of having the rotation axis of the skulk in the center of its body. Why not move both to the skulks head? The rotation axis AND the viewpoint. So you move your body around the head while rotating. Just like an angry cat. That should fix the problem of not being able to sneak peaking around edges without getting seen and may even be much more intuitive.
+1 to Necro. A cone hitbox is due to the perspective transformation on your view. What appears to be a box from the view of your camera is actually a kind of cone. So what looks like a cone from top-down "looks" like a square in space from the camera's perspective.
This is due to how perspective works. You see a geater area in a "far" plane than a "near" plane. So if something were the same size, as you move it further back it takes up a small percentage of the viewspace. To correct for that and make it take up the same region in the viewspace as you move it further from the camera, you make it larger.
Here's a nice primer on how that works in terms of the math: <a href="http://www.idav.ucdavis.edu/education/GraphicsNotes/Camera-Transform.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.idav.ucdavis.edu/education/Grap...a-Transform.pdf</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1965209:date=Aug 20 2012, 07:37 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 20 2012, 07:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other topic, of having the rotation axis of the skulk in the center of its body. Why not move both to the skulks head? The rotation axis AND the viewpoint. So you move your body around the head while rotating. Just like an angry cat. That should fix the problem of not being able to sneak peaking around edges without getting seen and may even be much more intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That might work, except then it will be difficult to think about your rear end potentialy swinging way out into sight =p
Defintely worth a try. Won't know until you try it!
<!--quoteo(post=1965209:date=Aug 21 2012, 12:37 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 21 2012, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other topic, of having the rotation axis of the skulk in the center of its body. Why not move both to the skulks head? The rotation axis AND the viewpoint. So you move your body around the head while rotating. Just like an angry cat. That should fix the problem of not being able to sneak peaking around edges without getting seen and may even be much more intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My guess is that it would make the animation look strange. The back legs would have to make massive strides as the skulk rotated while the front legs would hardly move at all. So that change would require a lot of new animation work and even then the end result would look very unnatural given the physiology of skulks.
I personally can't wait tell this gets removed. If skulks need more speed, give them more speed. Why give 1 class out of the 5 aliens an insane ultra high end skill based movement. It just breaks the balance for everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1965239:date=Aug 20 2012, 10:25 AM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Aug 20 2012, 10:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally can't wait tell this gets removed. If skulks need more speed, give them more speed. Why give 1 class out of the 5 aliens an insane ultra high end skill based movement. It just breaks the balance for everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it isn't this simple. The problem is that the skulk only needs more speed at higher skill levels.
Marines get better at shooting skulks as they play more, but skulks don't really get faster / better movement after a point because of the mechanics of the game. Obviously there is some difference between a new skulk and a veteran, but not as much as there needs to be.
The game is pretty balanced right now for mid skill level marines vs mid skill level skulks, but poorly balanced for high skill play and low skill play.
At low levels, the skulk moves too quickly and randomly for new marines to track At mid level the speed and movement predictability of the skulk is on par with marine's ability to track At the high levels, the marine can track a skulk better then it can move.
This is why you want skill based movement, because it allows good skulks to keep up with the aiming ability of good marines.
Just increasing the base speed, makes the game really hard for new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1965262:date=Aug 20 2012, 03:00 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Aug 20 2012, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why you want skill based movement, because it allows good skulks to keep up with the aiming ability of good marines.
Just increasing the base speed, makes the game really hard for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is why you implement bunny hopping, or something familar. it would be awesome if UWE thought of its own skill based skulk movement. doesnt have to necessarily be bhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=1965262:date=Aug 20 2012, 12:00 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Aug 20 2012, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why you want skill based movement, because it allows good skulks to keep up with the aiming ability of good marines.
Just increasing the base speed, makes the game really hard for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't make sense. If we are worried about making things hard for new players then the worst thing we can do is add skill based movement. If i were a new player i would rather have every skulk be slightly faster instead of a few super skulks bouncing all over the map at speeds meant to challenge the best of the best shooters.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1965289:date=Aug 20 2012, 09:59 PM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Aug 20 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This doesn't make sense. If we are worried about making things hard for new players then the worst thing we can do is add skill based movement. If i were a new player i would rather have every skulk be slightly faster instead of a few super skulks bouncing all over the map at speeds meant to challenge the best of the best shooters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you get the point. Movement is to aliens what aiming is to marines. Aim efficiency scales linearly with skill -- the more you play, the better you get at it. If alien movement efficiency doesn't scale similarly, you're going to be left with a situation where the game is either balanced for the newbies or the pros.
<!--quoteo(post=1965289:date=Aug 20 2012, 01:59 PM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Aug 20 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This doesn't make sense. If we are worried about making things hard for new players then the worst thing we can do is add skill based movement. If i were a new player i would rather have every skulk be slightly faster instead of a few super skulks bouncing all over the map at speeds meant to challenge the best of the best shooters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It makes perfect sense if you flip it around and look at it from the marine point of view.
Also I am assuming that we are talking about new players fighting new players, not new players fighting experienced players. I think any other discussion is a waste of time.
If any new player and move super fast with the skulk, then a new marine will have a very difficult time tracking him.
It becomes balance when experience marines are tracking the skulk, because they have practiced tracking such targets.
Basically, you need some way for an experience skulk to move more quickly and unpredictable to match the aiming skill of experienced marines, but you also want new skulks to move slow enough for new marines to track them. So there needs to be some mechanism that allows skulks to be more unpredictable / harder to track as they play more, to match the increased tracking ability of marine players.
Other wise the game is unbalanced at one end of the skill spectrum or the other, which is terrible for either the longevity ( if it is balanced for new players), or the accessibility ( if it is balanced for veterans) of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1965209:date=Aug 21 2012, 01:37 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 21 2012, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, I'm not that good in technical english. Thats why I have problems to describe the effect in an easy way. Lets try one more time:
Think of, that you look on your screen and play NS2. In the game world, you see a 2 dimensional square that is 1m x 1m. This square is 20m from you away. Say, this square takes up 10 x 10 pixels on your computer screen in the real world. Now you move closer to that square. If that square is now only 2m from you away, it may take 100x100 pixels on your screen. (The numbers aren't true to scale! But) It will take more pixels on your screen the nearer it gets. matso has stated, that he will change the bite cone to a bite-cuboid. So imagine, that the far-away square is the end of your bite-hitbox and the near square is the beginning of your bite-hitbox. Biting a marine standing near to you, would be possible to hit from the center of your screen to 50pixel in every direction. Biting a marine standing far away (20m is to far, but just imagine such a big bite-hitbox in this case.) would only count as hit, if he was 5 pixel from the center of your screen.
This also applies in shorter ranges. So having a bite-<u>cone</u> is essentially having a cuboid on your computer screen. Because no matter how far the marine is away, you hit him when he is only X pixel from the center of your screen away.
That is what I meant with considering the perspective. If it is really changed to a cuboid in the next patch, it will take way less skill to hit marines that are nearer. It may just be enough to have him on your screen in order to hit him. With the cone, the hit-area was a fixed pixel-distance from the center of your screen. No matter how far away or near the marine was.
Sorry that I can't explain it better. I can only hope, that someone with better english-skills can understand me and explain it more easy.
---
On the other topic, of having the rotation axis of the skulk in the center of its body. Why not move both to the skulks head? The rotation axis AND the viewpoint. So you move your body around the head while rotating. Just like an angry cat. That should fix the problem of not being able to sneak peaking around edges without getting seen and may even be much more intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but the reason matso is changing it is because of the reason I outlined before and the illogical shape causing hit reg issues. It is easier in current model to bite a marine 0.4m in front of his jaw than 0.1 due to the shape of the bite cone tailing in at the jaw. Stop using 1st person views for this discussion as its not relevant as it does not show the issue which is illustrated in top down views. We are not talking about the hit zone on the screen but in the actual world how the bite zone is shaped and whether or not its easier or harder to bite a marine up close.
Now once we see how the bite shape change plays out further discussion on whether or not they need more speed or easier to get speed up. I think that now skulks are no longer punished for getting too close it may not be needed.
<!--quoteo(post=1965262:date=Aug 21 2012, 05:00 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Aug 21 2012, 05:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it isn't this simple. The problem is that the skulk only needs more speed at higher skill levels.
Marines get better at shooting skulks as they play more, but skulks don't really get faster / better movement after a point because of the mechanics of the game. Obviously there is some difference between a new skulk and a veteran, but not as much as there needs to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1965296:date=Aug 21 2012, 07:13 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 21 2012, 07:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you get the point. Movement is to aliens what aiming is to marines. Aim efficiency scales linearly with skill -- the more you play, the better you get at it. If alien movement efficiency doesn't scale similarly, you're going to be left with a situation where the game is either balanced for the newbies or the pros.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Both of you seem to be saying that benefits of skill & experience maxes out sooner for aliens than marines, and that the way to fix it is to permit faster alien movement through the use of skill. The only skill based movement I'm aware of is skulk wall jumping.
This is interesting because it's a clear & isolated concept that has different parameters depending on whether you're designing a game for eSports or casual gaming. For eSports you favour high skill ceilings and don't care about how hard it is to learn while the reverse is true for casual gaming. You can't have both but you can draw a line in the sand and say these competing demands have been balanced.
I do agree with Katana's reasoning (slow skulks for low skilled games; fast skulks for high skilled games) but I completely disagree with the assertion that currently skulks movement can't outperform marine aim. Of course, it depends on the distance between the skulk and the marine (tangential velocity is to aiming as skulk movement is to angular velocity). Wthout knowing some specifics, I'd suggest that if you're having problems evading fire you're probably engaging from too far away. I don't make use of wall jump. :/
<!--quoteo(post=1965330:date=Aug 20 2012, 04:25 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 20 2012, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is interesting because it's a clear & isolated concept that has different parameters depending on whether you're designing a game for eSports or casual gaming. For eSports you favour high skill ceilings and don't care about how hard it is to learn while the reverse is true for casual gaming. You can't have both but you can draw a line in the sand and say these competing demands have been balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with this completely. It is possible to balance games at all skill levels. It is not possible <b>ACROSS</b> skill levels. If we are talking about good players vs bad, all bets are off. (PS, good match making and stat tracking solves this problem, see LoL, DOTA and SC2)
So what you are suggesting is true if you are trying to balance across skill levels, but I believe this is an exercise in futility, and will only result in a shallow game, or an inaccessible one.
Based on the few time's I've run into competitive players in servers skulking is pretty limited compared to marine aim.
This is of course hard to measure in isolation, so my evidence is pretty circumstantial. Can some competitive players shed light on the higher end of the spectrum?
If skulk wall-jumping was intended to match the skulk skill curve with the marine skill curve, it's a pretty terrible implementation.
Rather than trying to steepen the skulk skill curve, the marine skill curve should just be flattened.
In original NS 1.0, skulks were absolutely enormous, but became smaller with 2.0, and smaller still with 3.0.
Skulks should go back to a 1.0-2.0 size and just have more health to compensate. This will narrow the skill gap between the novice and expert marine players, since arguably aiming is the most difficult part of being a marine player.
Comments
Armor 0 - 4 bites / 3 bites + parasite
Armor 1 - 5 bites / 4 bites + parasite
Armor 2 - 5 bites
Armor 3 - 6 bites
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZq_4y7sBLY&hd=1</a>
IMO movement should be changed to how it was in HL1. The only met limitation should be player skill and map design, just like aim. Obviously you could go so fast as it is hard to control, and speed has less use in combat. Give skulk bhop and a better iteration of walljumping, give fades the smooth blink, marines consistent speed and no crazy movement slowdowns, etc. Let's see what they do about it in 217.
As for the bite cone, inverted cone idea is the best by far. skulks should have an advantage on marines point-blank, that's how it is. Currently it's better to learn the range and keep at the maximum because it's easier to track marines jumping around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow that is insane!
Are you using a script or macro or something for that? I can't get the timing or motion right at all.
Armor 0 - 4 bites / 3 bites + parasite
Armor 1 - 5 bites / 4 bites + parasite
Armor 2 - 5 bites
Armor 3 - 6 bites<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Even 4 bites lends a huge, huge advantage to marines. Those numbers would be insane.
I'd rather have skulk bite harder to use and more powerful (aka what it is now) than easier to use and weaker (what is being suggested). I think you can keep current damage values and correct the damage cones into something like rectangles unless there is a specific reason we're using cones in the first place. If there is a reason to use cones instead of rectangles, please share.
I'd rather have skulk bite harder to use and more powerful (aka what it is now) than easier to use and weaker (what is being suggested). I think you can keep current damage values and correct the damage cones into something like rectangles unless there is a specific reason we're using cones in the first place. If there is a reason to use cones instead of rectangles, please share.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Fixing the hit cone wont make the skulk that op'd it will just mean he is more likely to miss shotes from further away but hit when he is at your feet.
Really what most of us would expect to happen (from either marine or alien perspective)...after all melee means your strongest up close.
UWE melee currently mens your crap right up close but great if you stay about 1 m off your opponent.
another thing, i saw a screenshot of a hitreg tool in another thread and it looked like the skulk bite comprised 9 overlapping pyramids/tetrahedrons instead of a single cone.
why? it would be extremely easy to create a single cone hit box.
just make it detect in a circular or rectangular cone (non-occluded objects within |r| distance of bite cone orientation vector, give priority to enemy models), perhaps make the cone extend from the rear of the skulk so as to make the detection area bigger than 0 at the mouth, then discard hits from behind the mouth.
what is gained from splitting the hit things into 9 cones?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The crucial point is that there is no way of knowing if an object is occluded or not without tracing through the collision world. As entities can obscure each other, the code can get a bit hairy trying to do that. It turn out to be far easier to just throw a box through the world to find out if anything is there.
Using a single box means that you risk having your box get stuck on geometry on the edges though, or biting the armory instead of the juicy marine. So the box is split into 9, and the best target from all targets detected are used.
Which achieves pretty much the same thing, in a way that's easier to implement (at least in the Spark engine).
/Mats
Using a single box means that you risk having your box get stuck on geometry on the edges though, or biting the armory instead of the juicy marine. So the box is split into 9, and the best target from all targets detected are used.
Which achieves pretty much the same thing, in a way that's easier to implement (at least in the Spark engine).
/Mats<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That makes sense...but why not 5x5 does it greatly impact server performance having more or fewer (hit reg issues aside)?
Why does the bite cone need to narrow so much at the skulks mouth?
Could the bite cone be flipped so that bites at 0.1m are easier to land than bites at 0.4m?
Currently the hit boxes are about 33$ wider at almost the furthest point from the skulks mouth...it should be flipped so the attack modifier so to speak increases as you get closer (to the point of collision) .
Also why do the bite cones appear to start in the middle of the skulk, would it not make more sense to have them all start at his jaw and decrease in area of effect and not increase?
Why does the bite cone need to narrow so much at the skulks mouth?
Could the bite cone be flipped so that bites at 0.1m are easier to land than bites at 0.4m?
Currently the hit boxes are about 33$ wider at almost the furthest point from the skulks mouth...it should be flipped so the attack modifier so to speak increases as you get closer (to the point of collision) .
Also why do the bite cones appear to start in the middle of the skulk, would it not make more sense to have them all start at his jaw and decrease in area of effect and not increase?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A trace is fairly cheap - the extra traces costs about 20 microseconds each (the first one is more expensive due to lazy physics updating), and the amount of melee attacks in the game isn't big enough to worry about.
The narrow-at-the-mouth will go away in the next patch - it will be reverted to the same width at base and at end.
The reason for why they appear in the middle is because humans are bipeds - we don't expect that turning our body will rotate our viewpoint. So when you rotate your viewpoint, you expect your eyes to stay in (rougly) the same spot in space.
That's not actually true of something like a skulk or Onos - if they rotate their body, their eyes would be shifting around the center of their body by quite a lot.
As humans playing a computer game, that sucks. So what all computer games that I know of does, is to place the eyes in the center of the body. This does have some problems, as every skulk trying to sneak a peak around a corner knows - you need to expose half your body to get your viewpoint around the corner.
And when it comes to biting (actually, all attacks - check where marine actually shoots their bullets from. Marine looks DO kill) the way that feels best is to start tracing your attack from your eyes. Which is located in the middle of your body.
The narrow-at-the-mouth will go away in the next patch - it will be reverted to the same width at base and at end.
The reason for why they appear in the middle is because humans are bipeds - we don't expect that turning our body will rotate our viewpoint. So when you rotate your viewpoint, you expect your eyes to stay in (rougly) the same spot in space.
That's not actually true of something like a skulk or Onos - if they rotate their body, their eyes would be shifting around the center of their body by quite a lot.
As humans playing a computer game, that sucks. So what all computer games that I know of does, is to place the eyes in the center of the body. This does have some problems, as every skulk trying to sneak a peak around a corner knows - you need to expose half your body to get your viewpoint around the corner.
And when it comes to biting (actually, all attacks - check where marine actually shoots their bullets from. Marine looks DO kill) the way that feels best is to start tracing your attack from your eyes. Which is located in the middle of your body.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome Matso greatly appreciate these responses and its really helpful info.
Great news about the shape of the cones no longer being narrower at the mouth from the next patch. Will make things a hell of a lot more logical as a skulk and hopefully more rewarding for the hard efforts of getting into melee range.
Thanks for the info on the cones, I just wondered if 3x3 was chosen for performance or simply because it seems to address all issues just by breaking into 9 boxes, sounds like the later which is good to know.
The cones from the middle being due to the base model being human is an interesting and can see how it would work for a marine model being smaller in topographical view so any issues are negligible but with the strange arse shapes of some of the aliens it look a lot funnier...any plans to consider offsetting the boxes to get around the whole corner issue (either long or short term) or is it simply too much additional work given the varying alien lifeforms?
Microseconds, not milliseconds. So 20us x 8 = 160us = .16ms
Are you using a script or macro or something for that? I can't get the timing or motion right at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It only takes a bit of practice Typhon, I usually practice in glasshall way on summit, and in the same area on docking (and a bit closer to the hive). But he is still a bit more consistent than I am, I end up doing a figure-8 type of technique after a while or else i start to mess up.
are you strafing in midair? i always start drifiting and mess up because i'm not used to strafing in conjunction with walljumps.
<!--quoteo(post=1964888:date=Aug 19 2012, 06:07 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Aug 19 2012, 06:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A trace is fairly cheap - the extra traces costs about 20 microseconds each (the first one is more expensive due to lazy physics updating), and the amount of melee attacks in the game isn't big enough to worry about.
The narrow-at-the-mouth will go away in the next patch - it will be reverted to the same width at base and at end.
The reason for why they appear in the middle is because humans are bipeds - we don't expect that turning our body will rotate our viewpoint. So when you rotate your viewpoint, you expect your eyes to stay in (rougly) the same spot in space.
That's not actually true of something like a skulk or Onos - if they rotate their body, their eyes would be shifting around the center of their body by quite a lot.
As humans playing a computer game, that sucks. So what all computer games that I know of does, is to place the eyes in the center of the body. This does have some problems, as every skulk trying to sneak a peak around a corner knows - you need to expose half your body to get your viewpoint around the corner.
And when it comes to biting (actually, all attacks - check where marine actually shoots their bullets from. Marine looks DO kill) the way that feels best is to start tracing your attack from your eyes. Which is located in the middle of your body.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks for all the clarifications matso!
The hit zone encompasses a greater area (simple geometry here nothing complicated) in a top down cross section. Take a 1 inch cross section stepping out from the skulks nose to the end of its hit zone...total up the amount of hit zone contained within each inch, there is more space in the cross sections further from the skulks nose than closer.
Coupled with the increased difficulty when the marines within 0.1 m (jumping over/around skulk etc) as its easier to get out of frame (again simple maths based on perspective (object has to travel further upwards the greater distance from the source to go out of the field of view).
Bloody programmable calculators and piss poor education systems are dumbing down the youngens I swear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, I'm not that good in technical english. Thats why I have problems to describe the effect in an easy way. Lets try one more time:
Think of, that you look on your screen and play NS2. In the game world, you see a 2 dimensional square that is 1m x 1m. This square is 20m from you away. Say, this square takes up 10 x 10 pixels on your computer screen in the real world.
Now you move closer to that square. If that square is now only 2m from you away, it may take 100x100 pixels on your screen. (The numbers aren't true to scale! But) It will take more pixels on your screen the nearer it gets.
matso has stated, that he will change the bite cone to a bite-cuboid.
So imagine, that the far-away square is the end of your bite-hitbox and the near square is the beginning of your bite-hitbox.
Biting a marine standing near to you, would be possible to hit from the center of your screen to 50pixel in every direction.
Biting a marine standing far away (20m is to far, but just imagine such a big bite-hitbox in this case.) would only count as hit, if he was 5 pixel from the center of your screen.
This also applies in shorter ranges. So having a bite-<u>cone</u> is essentially having a cuboid on your computer screen. Because no matter how far the marine is away, you hit him when he is only X pixel from the center of your screen away.
That is what I meant with considering the perspective. If it is really changed to a cuboid in the next patch, it will take way less skill to hit marines that are nearer. It may just be enough to have him on your screen in order to hit him. With the cone, the hit-area was a fixed pixel-distance from the center of your screen. No matter how far away or near the marine was.
Sorry that I can't explain it better. I can only hope, that someone with better english-skills can understand me and explain it more easy.
---
On the other topic, of having the rotation axis of the skulk in the center of its body. Why not move both to the skulks head? The rotation axis AND the viewpoint. So you move your body around the head while rotating. Just like an angry cat. That should fix the problem of not being able to sneak peaking around edges without getting seen and may even be much more intuitive.
This is due to how perspective works. You see a geater area in a "far" plane than a "near" plane. So if something were the same size, as you move it further back it takes up a small percentage of the viewspace. To correct for that and make it take up the same region in the viewspace as you move it further from the camera, you make it larger.
Here's a nice primer on how that works in terms of the math: <a href="http://www.idav.ucdavis.edu/education/GraphicsNotes/Camera-Transform.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.idav.ucdavis.edu/education/Grap...a-Transform.pdf</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1965209:date=Aug 20 2012, 07:37 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 20 2012, 07:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other topic, of having the rotation axis of the skulk in the center of its body. Why not move both to the skulks head? The rotation axis AND the viewpoint. So you move your body around the head while rotating. Just like an angry cat. That should fix the problem of not being able to sneak peaking around edges without getting seen and may even be much more intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That might work, except then it will be difficult to think about your rear end potentialy swinging way out into sight =p
Defintely worth a try. Won't know until you try it!
My guess is that it would make the animation look strange. The back legs would have to make massive strides as the skulk rotated while the front legs would hardly move at all. So that change would require a lot of new animation work and even then the end result would look very unnatural given the physiology of skulks.
it isn't this simple. The problem is that the skulk only needs more speed at higher skill levels.
Marines get better at shooting skulks as they play more, but skulks don't really get faster / better movement after a point because of the mechanics of the game. Obviously there is some difference between a new skulk and a veteran, but not as much as there needs to be.
The game is pretty balanced right now for mid skill level marines vs mid skill level skulks, but poorly balanced for high skill play and low skill play.
At low levels, the skulk moves too quickly and randomly for new marines to track
At mid level the speed and movement predictability of the skulk is on par with marine's ability to track
At the high levels, the marine can track a skulk better then it can move.
This is why you want skill based movement, because it allows good skulks to keep up with the aiming ability of good marines.
Just increasing the base speed, makes the game really hard for new players.
Just increasing the base speed, makes the game really hard for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is why you implement bunny hopping, or something familar. it would be awesome if UWE thought of its own skill based skulk movement. doesnt have to necessarily be bhopping.
Just increasing the base speed, makes the game really hard for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't make sense. If we are worried about making things hard for new players then the worst thing we can do is add skill based movement. If i were a new player i would rather have every skulk be slightly faster instead of a few super skulks bouncing all over the map at speeds meant to challenge the best of the best shooters.
I don't think you get the point. Movement is to aliens what aiming is to marines. Aim efficiency scales linearly with skill -- the more you play, the better you get at it. If alien movement efficiency doesn't scale similarly, you're going to be left with a situation where the game is either balanced for the newbies or the pros.
It makes perfect sense if you flip it around and look at it from the marine point of view.
Also I am assuming that we are talking about new players fighting new players, not new players fighting experienced players. I think any other discussion is a waste of time.
If any new player and move super fast with the skulk, then a new marine will have a very difficult time tracking him.
It becomes balance when experience marines are tracking the skulk, because they have practiced tracking such targets.
Basically, you need some way for an experience skulk to move more quickly and unpredictable to match the aiming skill of experienced marines, but you also want new skulks to move slow enough for new marines to track them. So there needs to be some mechanism that allows skulks to be more unpredictable / harder to track as they play more, to match the increased tracking ability of marine players.
Other wise the game is unbalanced at one end of the skill spectrum or the other, which is terrible for either the longevity ( if it is balanced for new players), or the accessibility ( if it is balanced for veterans) of the game.
Think of, that you look on your screen and play NS2. In the game world, you see a 2 dimensional square that is 1m x 1m. This square is 20m from you away. Say, this square takes up 10 x 10 pixels on your computer screen in the real world.
Now you move closer to that square. If that square is now only 2m from you away, it may take 100x100 pixels on your screen. (The numbers aren't true to scale! But) It will take more pixels on your screen the nearer it gets.
matso has stated, that he will change the bite cone to a bite-cuboid.
So imagine, that the far-away square is the end of your bite-hitbox and the near square is the beginning of your bite-hitbox.
Biting a marine standing near to you, would be possible to hit from the center of your screen to 50pixel in every direction.
Biting a marine standing far away (20m is to far, but just imagine such a big bite-hitbox in this case.) would only count as hit, if he was 5 pixel from the center of your screen.
This also applies in shorter ranges. So having a bite-<u>cone</u> is essentially having a cuboid on your computer screen. Because no matter how far the marine is away, you hit him when he is only X pixel from the center of your screen away.
That is what I meant with considering the perspective. If it is really changed to a cuboid in the next patch, it will take way less skill to hit marines that are nearer. It may just be enough to have him on your screen in order to hit him. With the cone, the hit-area was a fixed pixel-distance from the center of your screen. No matter how far away or near the marine was.
Sorry that I can't explain it better. I can only hope, that someone with better english-skills can understand me and explain it more easy.
---
On the other topic, of having the rotation axis of the skulk in the center of its body. Why not move both to the skulks head? The rotation axis AND the viewpoint. So you move your body around the head while rotating. Just like an angry cat. That should fix the problem of not being able to sneak peaking around edges without getting seen and may even be much more intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but the reason matso is changing it is because of the reason I outlined before and the illogical shape causing hit reg issues.
It is easier in current model to bite a marine 0.4m in front of his jaw than 0.1 due to the shape of the bite cone tailing in at the jaw.
Stop using 1st person views for this discussion as its not relevant as it does not show the issue which is illustrated in top down views.
We are not talking about the hit zone on the screen but in the actual world how the bite zone is shaped and whether or not its easier or harder to bite a marine up close.
Now once we see how the bite shape change plays out further discussion on whether or not they need more speed or easier to get speed up.
I think that now skulks are no longer punished for getting too close it may not be needed.
Marines get better at shooting skulks as they play more, but skulks don't really get faster / better movement after a point because of the mechanics of the game. Obviously there is some difference between a new skulk and a veteran, but not as much as there needs to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1965296:date=Aug 21 2012, 07:13 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 21 2012, 07:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you get the point. Movement is to aliens what aiming is to marines. Aim efficiency scales linearly with skill -- the more you play, the better you get at it. If alien movement efficiency doesn't scale similarly, you're going to be left with a situation where the game is either balanced for the newbies or the pros.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of you seem to be saying that benefits of skill & experience maxes out sooner for aliens than marines, and that the way to fix it is to permit faster alien movement through the use of skill. The only skill based movement I'm aware of is skulk wall jumping.
This is interesting because it's a clear & isolated concept that has different parameters depending on whether you're designing a game for eSports or casual gaming. For eSports you favour high skill ceilings and don't care about how hard it is to learn while the reverse is true for casual gaming. You can't have both but you can draw a line in the sand and say these competing demands have been balanced.
I do agree with Katana's reasoning (slow skulks for low skilled games; fast skulks for high skilled games) but I completely disagree with the assertion that currently skulks movement can't outperform marine aim. Of course, it depends on the distance between the skulk and the marine (tangential velocity is to aiming as skulk movement is to angular velocity). Wthout knowing some specifics, I'd suggest that if you're having problems evading fire you're probably engaging from too far away. I don't make use of wall jump. :/
I don't agree with this completely. It is possible to balance games at all skill levels. It is not possible <b>ACROSS</b> skill levels. If we are talking about good players vs bad, all bets are off.
(PS, good match making and stat tracking solves this problem, see LoL, DOTA and SC2)
So what you are suggesting is true if you are trying to balance across skill levels, but I believe this is an exercise in futility, and will only result in a shallow game, or an inaccessible one.
Based on the few time's I've run into competitive players in servers skulking is pretty limited compared to marine aim.
This is of course hard to measure in isolation, so my evidence is pretty circumstantial. Can some competitive players shed light on the higher end of the spectrum?
Rather than trying to steepen the skulk skill curve, the marine skill curve should just be flattened.
In original NS 1.0, skulks were absolutely enormous, but became smaller with 2.0, and smaller still with 3.0.
Skulks should go back to a 1.0-2.0 size and just have more health to compensate. This will narrow the skill gap between the novice and expert marine players, since arguably aiming is the most difficult part of being a marine player.