Idea to Buff Hydras

EgoGamer · August 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">Scaling with upgrades</div>How about giving Hydras the ability to take on upgrades as the khamm researches them? To provide an obvious example: Researching Carapace = more armour for the Hydra.

If this is thought to be too powerful, you could instead tie what upgrades the Gorge currently has to the Hydras. (Which is what I'd prefer really)

(edit: alright botchiball, here's a more complete list ;) ) here's a few ideas for upgrades:

<span style="color:#FFC0CB"><b>Crag Hive</b></span>
<b><i>Carapace</i></b>: More Armour.
<b><i>Regeneration</i></b>: Begins to regain health after X seconds of not being attacked (or) Augment healspray benefit during attack (or) Provide a healing received buff to nearby aliens and structures. [Thanks to botchiball again]

<span style="color:#FFC0CB"><b>Shift Hive</b></span>
<b><i>Celerity</i></b>: Increased range. [botchiball] Possibly also increase passive marine detection range?
<b><i>Adrenaline</i></b>: Faster rate of fire (or) Allow Hydras to shoot while aflame, remove ability for vanilla Hydras to fire while on fire. [botchiball]
<b><i>Hypermutation</i></b>: Instantly destroy and rebuild a Hydra at new location. Retains health percentage to prevent cheese, but allows you to quickly move your front line forward. (or) Faster build and maturity time. [Wheeee]

<span style="color:#FFC0CB"><b>Shade Hive</b></span>
<b><i>Feint</i></b>: Hydra appears dead for a few seconds when it reaches 0%, reappears a few seconds later. Can still be healed during feint. [botchiball] (or) Create illusionary Hydras nearby [Wheeee]
<b><i>Silence</i></b>: Hydras fire and impact silently. (bit weak-sauce but stumped for ideas)
<b><i>Camouflage</i></b>: Gives Hydras innate cloaking (or) Remove the glow effect from Hydras, so when placed in dark crevices they become difficult to see.

Fell free to add any ideas you think could work. :)

Edit: Oh, and one last idea! Researching Bilebomb allows Hydra shots to dissolve armour, though at a slower rate than bilebomb would.

Please note that I'm not asking for all of these options to be implemented, rather only one for each upgrade. The use of "(or)" is just to separate every idea so far.

botchiball · August 2012

Why not make up a true list of everything together and separated by hive type?

For Feint -> why not have it act the same as it does for a lifeform: upon initial death, the hydra displays its "death throws" animation and falls over/off the wall or ceiling its on, then after a set duration it starts firing again. It would be less beneficial as the Hydra can't run away, but it could provide an opportunity every once and a while to matter. Not to mention if a Gorge is healing it while it is Feinting, it could have enough health gained back after the duration to matter.

I like the use of Hyper-Mutation in a way similar to Echo. Careful though, as this would definitely make Hydras into an Offensive ability. Could be a good thing, could also be spammed and abused. Then again, with the current set-up, a Hyper-Mutation Gorge would have to give up Adrenaline - which is a pretty steep trade-off.

I also like that this is so obviously simple; provides a benefit over growth of the Kharaan team; and doesn't require some new menu.

schkorpio · August 2012

i think you might be onto something here!

could you do something similar for turrets? they could gain HP and DMG bonuses as the commander upgrades the marines armor and weapon levels

AurOn2 · August 2012

Would be nice! would bring back lategame usability for turrets schkorpio
Hell it would make them usable in general. they are a pointless "cant do anything else" thing atm.
On topic:
The only cure is to bring back the pres hydras, they were never a problem in the first place, at least, not to the point that free hydras have been, free hydras can only be:
1) useless
2) overly powered.
its impossible to reach a settlement with them.

Imbalanxd · August 2012

Nice idea. I don't know if its what you were getting at, but the Hydras should essentially benefit from any upgrades the gorge who built them has.

EgoGamer · August 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 15 2012, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Nice idea. I don't know if its what you were getting at, but the Hydras should essentially benefit from any upgrades the gorge who built them has.</div>

Yeah that's what I meant, sorry if I didn't explain it too well. :)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Aug 15 2012, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The only cure is to bring back the pres hydras, they were never a problem in the first place, at least, not to the point that free hydras have been, free hydras can only be:
1) useless
2) overly powered.
its impossible to reach a settlement with them.</div>

UWE once compared the Gorge to the Engineer from TF2 when they went with free Hydras. I think if they're going with that idea they need to go the whole hog and introduce an upgrade system for Hydras which uses it's own resource pool, unique to the gorge.

For example, the gorge starts with 200 Infestation points. He can spend, let's say, 30 points setting up a hydra and 10 points per clog. He can now travel back onto infestation to replenish his pool, then return to his Hydra wall and upgrade his Hydras to be more potent and his clogs to be more durable.
This doesn't help much with front-line defense however, and it encourages the Gorge to remain static rather than moving his wall forward. And besides, this is probably an idea for another thread. ;)

Typhon · August 2012

Hydras benefit from the same upgrades as the gorge? That's a pretty cool idea!

botchiball · August 2012

@EgoGamer: I'm not big on your TF2 comparison idea. I think you may have miss-understood the comparison, they have said many times that they don't want to make the Gorge just like TF2. I'm pretty sure they would be very against adding a number for the sole purpose of dividing up the Gorge's placement of structures.

So a little confused now -> do Hydras get these benefits naturally as the Gorge evolutions? Or were you suggesting that a Gorge can purchase these upgrades when they are available?

Personally I like that the Gorge's evolutions are applied to the Hydras they plant -> allows for more variation of evolutions for the Gorge (some evolutions may be better for Hydras but worse for Gorge).

For your overall list up top, I have a few questions/queries:
<span style="color:#FFC0CB"><b>Crag</b></span>
<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Carapace</span> -> What is the difference between more or "tougher" armor? There currently isn't a "tougher" armor concept in NS2, so I would suggest using the "more" armor option: possibly increasing to 40 armor for Mature (which is double the current).

<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Regeneration </span>-> Seems strange that this one isn't "heals at a set rate so many seconds after damage" like a regular lifeform's regen is. I'm not sure what "faster recovery time" is, as I believe Hydras simply keep shooting until they die (I don't think they have a reaction to enemy fire which prevents them from shooting) - even if they did, this seems like a Shift ability. Augment Healspray sounds cool; I had a similar thought that Hydras could provide a non-stacking bonus of 150% heals to anything around them, but maybe it would be more balanced if it only affected the Hydra itself.

<span style="color:#FFC0CB"><b>Shift</b></span>
<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Celerity</span> -> Makes sense.

<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Adrenaline </span>-> Firing at two marines at once is essentially the same as firing more rapidly (which is what you suggested Celerity does). Faster build and maturity sounds more like Hyper-Mutation, but I like your current idea there. Maybe Adrenaline could allow a Hydra to continue firing while on fire, and a Hydra without Adrenaline would not fire any more (if they do). This would be a fairly weak suggestion -> but considering how powerful Adrenaline is for the Gorge, I think its a fair trade off.

<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Hyper-Mutation</span> -> Already said I like your idea.. but I'll say it again.

<span style="color:#FFC0CB"><b>Shade</b></span>
<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Feint </span>-> My idea.. to steal the Feint model, lol. Thanks for the credit : ).

<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Silence</span> -> Makes sense, it IS a bit weak sauce -> but so is Silence. You also may be surprised at how often Silence can win a fight, I don't see why it wouldn't work for Hydras as well.

<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Camouflage </span>-> Removing the glow would be a bit too weaksauce in a lit area, and a bit too powerful in a dark area. I would lean more toward the innate cloaking - mainly 'cause its tried and tested.

<span style="color:#FFC0CB"><b>Bile</b></span>
-> This one seems like it could be both a cool effect as well as OP. It would really depend on how much more quickly a Hydra would be able to kill a Marine or destroy a building. (I'm not sure of my thoughts on this one).

EgoGamer · August 2012

The TF2 remark was just kinda off the wall and unrelated the the rest of the thread. Yes, I suggested Hydras would gain the benefit of whatever upgrades the gorge currently has. Though if you're suggesting that a gorge could switch up his upgrades while the Hydras retain whatever upgrades the gorge had when they were built then that could be interesting.

Edit: Or, if you meant can the gorge can pick and choose between, for example, faster build time or firing on two marines with adrenaline, then no. Just throwing out ideas, if it ever got into the game (which I doubt, but hey someone might mod it after 1.0), then only one idea per upgrade would be implemented.

----------------------

I admit I made a mistake on the crag, I thought different armour types existed. (got confused with different weapon types) I'll remove that

In regards to regeneration , by "faster recovery time" I meant "heals at a set rate so many seconds after damage". ;) I worded it that way as Kharra structures have an innate regeneration ability already. I'll add your aoe heal idea to the list: I assume by that you mean anything within it's vicinity healed by a gorge/crag/regen heals at 150% normal, yes? Or did you mean that the Hydra would heal?

I'll add your fire suggestion for adrenaline. And yes I agree, double-firing and increased speed is a bit similar, but I see it as a trade-off: Do you want your Hydras to focus down one marine faster or spread all the love around? I'd go so far as to say celerity could have a slight edge dps-wise so that it may seem like an viable alternative to adrenaline, depending on the situation.

As for cloaking, I like the idea of a gorge being able to be sneaky with his placement. It's just a shame you couldn't couple it with silence and stick them in a dark corner on the ceiling. ;)
But then, innate cloaking coupled with hypermutation could make for some... interesting gameplay.

As for bilebomb upgrade, yeah, that would need to be played around with I feel. It was just an idea to keep Hydras viable once the game enters the later stages.

botchiball · August 2012

lol, I was just asking what you meant, not suggesting. I prefer the idea that the Gorge's evolutions ARE the Hydra's evolutions, no optional decisions or delayed applications. So essentially a Gorge is giving up preferred bonuses to add more bonuses to the Hydra.

I see now what you meant about recovery time, just a little confusing wording.

For the Double-Fire vs. Increased Speed -> why not trade off something like Celerity: Longer Range vs. Adrenaline: Faster Fire Rate?

The AOE Heal Boost was just meant to be an increase to healing done by a Gorge, or by Regen, or by a Hive, etc., anything within range which provides a heal. But as I said, sounds a bit OP to apply to everything around it - might make more sense to leave it as affecting only the Hydra.

Just one thing about Hyper-Mutation: are you suggesting that it is limited to rebuilding on Infestation? It would only make sense to work like Echo in that regard.

Wheeee · August 2012

+1 great idea!
i think celerity should increase spike accuracy, and adrenaline should increase RoF. hypermutation faster maturation, more health
silence should be the one that lets you instantly place them (instead of hypermutation).
feint should create illusory hydras nearby.

EgoGamer · August 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 17 2012, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>For the Double-Fire vs. Increased Speed -> why not trade off something like Celerity: Longer Range vs. Adrenaline: Faster Fire Rate?

The AOE Heal Boost was just meant to be an increase to healing done by a Gorge, or by Regen, or by a Hive, etc., anything within range which provides a heal. But as I said, sounds a bit OP to apply to everything around it - might make more sense to leave it as affecting only the Hydra.

Just one thing about Hyper-Mutation: are you suggesting that it is limited to rebuilding on Infestation? It would only make sense to work like Echo in that regard.</div>

1: Sounds like a better trade-off.
2: I'll leave it up there anyway. :P
3: I feel that's something that would need to be played around with to get the balance right. I would say it should work off of infestation though, as the gorge is already taking a big hit by taking hypermutation over adrenaline or celerity. But then he could always evolve out of hypermutation once he moves the Hydras so who knows. :)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 17 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>+1 great idea!
i think celerity should increase spike accuracy, and adrenaline should increase RoF. hypermutation faster maturation, more health
silence should be the one that lets you instantly place them (instead of hypermutation).
feint should create illusory hydras nearby.</div>

Thanks for the +1. :)
For your suggestions:
Spike accuracy is already at 100%.
Agree that RoF would be better suited to adrenaline.
Bit boring but I guess this suits hypermutaion better, I'll shift stuff around. Also requires a bit more forward planning than me idea, which isn't a bad thing. However anything that increases health should be tied to the Crag tree.
Silence upgrade makes no sense I'm afraid. There needs to be logic behind the upgrades, silence enabling you to transport Hydras instantly just doesn't connect.
Like that feint idea though. :)

Darkomicron · August 2012

Isn't it a lot easier to just make a type of hive give a hydra a bonus?

Crag Hive:
Hydras have 40 more HP.

Shift Hive:
Hydras shoot 10% faster.

Shade Hive:
Hydras parasite marines that have been hit.

Something like that. Just needs some balancing, but it's simple and effective throughout the game.

Angelusz · August 2012

I like this idea. The changes would be very difficult to balance, but definitely something to keep an eye on after 1.0!

EgoGamer · August 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darkomicron @ Aug 17 2012, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Isn't it a lot easier to just make a type of hive give a hydra a bonus?

Crag Hive:
Hydras have 40 more HP.

Shift Hive:
Hydras shoot 10% faster.

Shade Hive:
Hydras parasite marines that have been hit.

Something like that. Just needs some balancing, but it's simple and effective throughout the game.</div>

Certainly could work, and perhaps each hive could augment every upgrade. for example:
Hive 1 is Crag, Hydras get 40 extra HP
Hive 2 is Shift, Hydras get 60 HP and shoot 15% faster
Hive 3 is Shade, Hydras get 80 extra HP, shoot 20% faster and... Whatever you imagine parasite could evolve into.

Obviously the numbers would been to be played around with.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Aug 17 2012, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I like this idea. The changes would be very difficult to balance, but definitely something to keep an eye on after 1.0!</div>

Cheers. :)

Idea to Buff Hydras

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