I hope so. Especially the mechanic that only 3 aliens can respawn per wave has to go. Most people don't even know this and are thinking that the respawn waves are bugged.
I like the wave-system. But it was gimped by the maximum-wave = 3 mechanic.
It's definitely not fun to wait around 30sec after you died to respawn. It's longer then a marine had to endure in NS1 when he was devoured by a onos...
This is also a problem where the cause is the max-spawn = 3. Besides the obvious egg-lock. Btw. This egg-lock thing is also bad. It should increase the spawn-wave-time by a low amount every time a skulk dies (and decrease over time). But having something like the egg-lock is to harsh and not fun.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
The problem here is that skulks are too powerful, and so must be penalized by a long respawn time to keep the game even. Hopefully, as performance increases, skulks will have a harder time surviving, and the spawn time can be lowered to compensate.
Weird, eh? In order for aliens to spend less time in the spawn queue, they need to die more often :-)
Skulks aren't overpowered early game, though. They're actually significantly weaker than a vanilla marine, in my opinion.
Marine spawn time is ~10 seconds with an open IP. Alien spawn times are ~15s minimum with frequent bouts up to 30+ in many pubs. This is a huge reason why aliens are so weak early game and so reliant on free hydra spam to hold their main hive and second hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1962383:date=Aug 13 2012, 11:51 PM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (w0dk4 @ Aug 13 2012, 11:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"but we're feeling good about the basics."
Weeks until 1.0 release. Exosuit not in yet.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah speaking of exos, the game might be balanced now but when exo's are in, the games balance could be shot to hell and need a few weeks/builds to fix. It is possible alien spawn mechanics will be changed with the arrivle of the exo, whenever that may be.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
waves need to go, period. It's better to lose all your eggs and know why you arent spawning, than to have alot of eggs in sight, and not spawn. period. Waves are a ridiculus idea and should never have been implemented for aliens in the first place.
Maybe if UWE is in love with the wave idea, have it be a waver per hive. Then, as you build more hives, you have a higher chance of spawning.
I hate tying things to hives, but that's the only improvement I can think of if they won't get rid of spawn waves. Getting rid of the waves and just making it take slightly longer for aliens to respawn would be much better.
Wave spawning is terribly detrimental to early game skulks, but less meaningful later on in the game. The problem with wave spawning is when aliens have 1 hive. A solution for it has to be one that is applicable from the start of the game. I like the idea of uncapping the number aliens from the spawn timer, so that more than 3 aliens can spawn if eggs are available.
It may need more of a change than that, but small steps first is the way to go.
<!--quoteo(post=1962518:date=Aug 14 2012, 04:01 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Aug 14 2012, 04:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wave spawn with the infantry portal system however. makes much more sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasn't wave-spawning originally (a poor solution) to counter spawn-camping? Makes no sense to give it to the marines, it'll just slow things down unnecessarily.
If two players are about to spawn in a short time windows, one player get slightly delayed and the other slightly advanced, so that they spawn at the same time.
For example player A will spawn in 8 seconds, players B in 6 seconds. The spawn system makes them spawn together at 7. Player A will spawn in 8 seconds, player B in 2 seconds, nothing happens, because you can't delay player B that much.
Auro, what you describe is not a problem of the wave spawning system. It's a problem of the cap to max 3 per wave. This cap was introduced shortly after the wave spawning was introduced. As far as I remember the cause was the follow: Good alien teams attacked the marine base together. All skulks died at nearly equal time. And respawned together in the next wave. Than they all attacked the marine base again. 5-7 skulks, all rushing the CC could end the game in minutes. And that is what happened. Many games ended because of CC-rushes. If the marines could hold out for 2 or 3 waves, the aliens got egg-locked and the rushing ended. (= marines could expand.)
At this time, the aliens got already some extractors while the marines were all in the base to defend. So they introduced the max cap of 3 per wave to lessen the effectiveness of early CC-rushs. I think this was the wrong decision.
The problem was not, that skulks in a big wave are very powerful. (They are even in this build.) But by breaking up the waves, you don't see them rushing in big groups anymore on pubs. So the main problem isn't solved. You just discouraged the pub-players to play together in big groups. (That was why wave spawning was introduced at first.)
I really miss those times, where 5 skulks rushed at you along a hallway. It was like in the movies. But anyway, it was to strong and had to be tweaked. I think another more dynamic tweak could have fixed it too. It is near Yuukis idea of soft waves but more intuitive (The mentioned times are open to balance!):<ul><u><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->New Alien Spawn-System<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u></li><li>Wave spawning for aliens with a 15 seconds timer. (No maximum cap on simultaneous spawns!)</li><li>This means, as soon as the first alien dies, the clock begins ticking. All aliens that die after that, have to wait only for this clock.</li><li>For every alien that dies, the wave spawn-time goes up 1 second. (To a maximum of 25 seconds)</li><li>Every 30 seconds the wave spawn-time is reduced by 1 second. (To a minimum of 5 seconds)</li></ul> If you balance the numbers right, you can stop the aliens from constantly rushing. You have a reliable and easy to understand spawn system. (Players see that the time goes up by one second when an alien dies.) You never have to wait longer than the max-spawn time. In most cases you will even spawn earlier, because you died short before a new wave.
Another change is needed to the frustrating egg-lock problem. But this is easy: For every dieing alien, there is a new egg generated at the hive. This way, you are sure to get an egg, but the marines can deny it (during a hive rush) by killing the egg. This is on top of the "hive creates 1 egg every x seconds"-rule. And it even allows you to select you egg to spawn while you wait for spawning.
Why not make the cap a % of marine team numbers as opposed to a flat 3.
3 sounds good for competitive 6v6 action, so perhaps it could be as simple as setting wave spawn cap to 50% of marine team (perhaps try rounded down by default but might need to be rounded up).
Would this not perhaps move towards a more dynamic system that works for 4v4 or 12v12.
<!--quoteo(post=1962213:date=Aug 14 2012, 12:46 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 14 2012, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...only 3 aliens can respawn per wave...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah I only realised this today when I noticed the sequence of events of a) me dying when half the team was already dead b) 3 of the dead guys spawned and I had to wait for the next wave. Has it been like this since the spawn wave system was introduced or did it change recently?
edit: nevermind, I hadn't read the most recent post you made... :P
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2012
Interesting to note that the reason why starting pres is still so high is because of this wave spawning system not working appropriately.
Aliens dont fare so well early game when skulks are dying frequently and thus are a)stuck in a spawn queue / not on the battlefield b)not accruing pres
So keeping the starting pres high allows them to get advanced lifeforms sooner and thus stay alive longer and not clog up the queue. Go ahead and try a starting pres of 10 with minimum 18 players and you will see aliens lose every game (We did for weeks, internally) with the scoreboard showing the majority of aliens "Dead" for the duration.
<!--quoteo(post=1962848:date=Aug 14 2012, 01:25 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 14 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go ahead and try a starting pres of 10 with minimum 18 players and you will see aliens lose every game (We did for weeks, internally) with the scoreboard showing the majority of aliens "Dead" for the duration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like to me there is a serious problem with Aliens early game and starting with higher p.res is just a bandage fix for it.
Can't say I'm hardly surprised by it, nor that it's not going to get fixed cause they have no idea what they're doing.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1962861:date=Aug 14 2012, 10:50 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Aug 14 2012, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like to me there is a serious problem with Aliens early game and starting with higher p.res is just a bandage fix for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats correct that its a bandaid fix, but it doesn't have to do with Aliens or early game, but rather the spawn system, as this thread suggests. All good ideas, btw.
I personally believe there should just be a fixed time wave that you make it into or not, where the amount of players spawning is dictated by the amount of eggs, and there will be one egg created for every death.
Meaning you spawn due to X seconds passing, unless marines are killing eggs.
Disclaimer: The "bandaid fix" is not an official stance, obviously, its my own opinion.
The previous egg spawning is used unless there are no eggs (I.e. marines killing eggs in hive), in which case it switches to some sort of wave spawn system.
Everything would have to be tweaked of course, but this sounds like it covers both sides of the issue
Don't see why this can't be part of an upgrade or building. Currently marines can build endless amount of IPs so why can't aliens just build something similar or get an upgrade that increases the spawn rate.
Well, they can, but not as easily a marines build more ips: shift allows eggs to be spawned at 1 tres a piece (but that locks you into a tech path you may not want and has an ongoing cost), and of course hives spawn more eggs.
Decoupling eggs from hives would certainly make things easier to balance. Really the spawn system on both sides needs some reworking a neither of them are team size invariant, although it's much easier for marines to work around that by building more ips.
Comments
I like the wave-system. But it was gimped by the maximum-wave = 3 mechanic.
Weird, eh? In order for aliens to spend less time in the spawn queue, they need to die more often :-)
Weeks until 1.0 release. Exosuit not in yet.
...
Marine spawn time is ~10 seconds with an open IP. Alien spawn times are ~15s minimum with frequent bouts up to 30+ in many pubs. This is a huge reason why aliens are so weak early game and so reliant on free hydra spam to hold their main hive and second hive.
Weeks until 1.0 release. Exosuit not in yet.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah speaking of exos, the game might be balanced now but when exo's are in, the games balance could be shot to hell and need a few weeks/builds to fix. It is possible alien spawn mechanics will be changed with the arrivle of the exo, whenever that may be.
It's better to lose all your eggs and know why you arent spawning, than to have alot of eggs in sight, and not spawn. period.
Waves are a ridiculus idea and should never have been implemented for aliens in the first place.
I hate tying things to hives, but that's the only improvement I can think of if they won't get rid of spawn waves. Getting rid of the waves and just making it take slightly longer for aliens to respawn would be much better.
It may need more of a change than that, but small steps first is the way to go.
Wasn't wave-spawning originally (a poor solution) to counter spawn-camping? Makes no sense to give it to the marines, it'll just slow things down unnecessarily.
I also agree with Gorgeous in that Skulks are not too powerful early game anymore, at least not against equally skilled marine players.
If two players are about to spawn in a short time windows, one player get slightly delayed and the other slightly advanced, so that they spawn at the same time.
For example player A will spawn in 8 seconds, players B in 6 seconds. The spawn system makes them spawn together at 7.
Player A will spawn in 8 seconds, player B in 2 seconds, nothing happens, because you can't delay player B that much.
This cap was introduced shortly after the wave spawning was introduced. As far as I remember the cause was the follow:
Good alien teams attacked the marine base together. All skulks died at nearly equal time. And respawned together in the next wave. Than they all attacked the marine base again. 5-7 skulks, all rushing the CC could end the game in minutes. And that is what happened. Many games ended because of CC-rushes. If the marines could hold out for 2 or 3 waves, the aliens got egg-locked and the rushing ended. (= marines could expand.)
At this time, the aliens got already some extractors while the marines were all in the base to defend. So they introduced the max cap of 3 per wave to lessen the effectiveness of early CC-rushs. I think this was the wrong decision.
The problem was not, that skulks in a big wave are very powerful. (They are even in this build.) But by breaking up the waves, you don't see them rushing in big groups anymore on pubs. So the main problem isn't solved. You just discouraged the pub-players to play together in big groups. (That was why wave spawning was introduced at first.)
I really miss those times, where 5 skulks rushed at you along a hallway. It was like in the movies. But anyway, it was to strong and had to be tweaked. I think another more dynamic tweak could have fixed it too. It is near Yuukis idea of soft waves but more intuitive (The mentioned times are open to balance!):<ul><u><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->New Alien Spawn-System<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u></li><li>Wave spawning for aliens with a 15 seconds timer. (No maximum cap on simultaneous spawns!)</li><li>This means, as soon as the first alien dies, the clock begins ticking. All aliens that die after that, have to wait only for this clock.</li><li>For every alien that dies, the wave spawn-time goes up 1 second. (To a maximum of 25 seconds)</li><li>Every 30 seconds the wave spawn-time is reduced by 1 second. (To a minimum of 5 seconds)</li></ul>
If you balance the numbers right, you can stop the aliens from constantly rushing. You have a reliable and easy to understand spawn system. (Players see that the time goes up by one second when an alien dies.) You never have to wait longer than the max-spawn time. In most cases you will even spawn earlier, because you died short before a new wave.
Another change is needed to the frustrating egg-lock problem. But this is easy: For every dieing alien, there is a new egg generated at the hive. This way, you are sure to get an egg, but the marines can deny it (during a hive rush) by killing the egg.
This is on top of the "hive creates 1 egg every x seconds"-rule. And it even allows you to select you egg to spawn while you wait for spawning.
3 sounds good for competitive 6v6 action, so perhaps it could be as simple as setting wave spawn cap to 50% of marine team (perhaps try rounded down by default but might need to be rounded up).
Would this not perhaps move towards a more dynamic system that works for 4v4 or 12v12.
Yeah I only realised this today when I noticed the sequence of events of a) me dying when half the team was already dead b) 3 of the dead guys spawned and I had to wait for the next wave. Has it been like this since the spawn wave system was introduced or did it change recently?
edit: nevermind, I hadn't read the most recent post you made... :P
Aliens dont fare so well early game when skulks are dying frequently and thus are
a)stuck in a spawn queue / not on the battlefield
b)not accruing pres
So keeping the starting pres high allows them to get advanced lifeforms sooner and thus stay alive longer and not clog up the queue.
Go ahead and try a starting pres of 10 with minimum 18 players and you will see aliens lose every game (We did for weeks, internally) with the scoreboard showing the majority of aliens "Dead" for the duration.
Sounds like to me there is a serious problem with Aliens early game and starting with higher p.res is just a bandage fix for it.
Can't say I'm hardly surprised by it, nor that it's not going to get fixed cause they have no idea what they're doing.
Thats correct that its a bandaid fix, but it doesn't have to do with Aliens or early game, but rather the spawn system, as this thread suggests.
All good ideas, btw.
I personally believe there should just be a fixed time wave that you make it into or not, where the amount of players spawning is dictated by the amount of eggs, and there will be one egg created for every death.
Meaning you spawn due to X seconds passing, unless marines are killing eggs.
Disclaimer: The "bandaid fix" is not an official stance, obviously, its my own opinion.
The previous egg spawning is used unless there are no eggs (I.e. marines killing eggs in hive), in which case it switches to some sort of wave spawn system.
Everything would have to be tweaked of course, but this sounds like it covers both sides of the issue
Decoupling eggs from hives would certainly make things easier to balance. Really the spawn system on both sides needs some reworking a neither of them are team size invariant, although it's much easier for marines to work around that by building more ips.