well if it is done for new players won't it just promote rambo style play. ie look it's a hive rush rush rush, hang on going in alone won't make any difference, but it's so red and shiney...
sigh... personally trying to ease new players in using this is just not that great, in my opinion.
<b>Having a hive targeted by comm as a priority target as well as other buildings would be great</b>, however just targeting comms and hives just because, is annoying and not very good as far as teamplay goes.
so I would like to see red hive etc... only if the comm targets it. That way you KNOW it's important.
I am completely, 100% against this change. Keeping players informed and directing them to the enemy base should be the job of the commander. New players, especially as aliens, already constantly rambo the enemy base enough as it is. They don't need any encouragement.
What we really need is the ability for the alien comm to give waypoints of some kind, imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1961742:date=Aug 12 2012, 07:41 PM:name=sparriz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sparriz @ Aug 12 2012, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so I would like to see red hive etc... only if the comm targets it. That way you KNOW it's important.
thx for reading.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, this seems indeed the most logical step.
have to comm be able to target it, with a 20-30 second timer or something?
Just Highlight the enemy comm chair on the minimap when it's found out. That's all you need to do. It's simple. It's easy to implement. It's intuitive. If you're lost. You look at a map. That's the ENTIRE point of a map.
On another point, I am not a huge fan of "add features but give the option to turn them off" concept. I mean if something is in the game, and is by default, the majority of players are going to be using it.
<!--quoteo(post=1962134:date=Aug 13 2012, 11:38 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 13 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On another point, I am not a huge fan of "add features but give the option to turn them off" concept. I mean if something is in the game, and is by default, the majority of players are going to be using it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye I agree
I think it would be enough with the commander being able to 'highlight' a specific hive/CC rather having all the hives/CCs highlighted, obviously some people will be running in all directions to each hive there would be on the map.
But anyway why work on a bunch of features filling up your screen only to turn them off, personally I think it would be good enough with the 'training vids' along with the 'new player tooltips' to make sure that new players have something to look up if they feel they need more info on this and that.
And I don't even want to comment on the new healthbar for the hives/CCs, when I saw it the first time I almost spilled some lampoil in terror of an upcoming boss fight, luckily it didn't come to that.... this time.
- Looks awful (fixable) - Interferes with aiming if it's near the crosshair (fixable) - As an objective marker, is inferior to the commander shift-click marker in pretty much every way.
An alternative way of achieving the good point is to make hives or CCs stay visible on the minimap after they've been spotted. This wouldn't be as obvious for new players who didn't know to check it, though you could add a pop-up a hint telling them to.
The aesthetic issues are solvable, so the main bad point is the objective marker issue. The hive/comm chair is only an objective when the commander or team strategy requires it to be. The commander shift-click markers seem to be really helpful at making disorganized pub teams converge on a location. The new tech point blips will probably do the same, but that is not generally a good thing.
Overall I'd much prefer improvements to the minimap and the comm shift-click alerts to this. Comm alerts are always relevant and worth imposing on your view, and the top down view of the minimap conveys much more information, and goes away when you don't need it.
Games like Red Orchestra 2 feature this as a 3D map which shows up when pushing a key. IF it is to stay it should definitely only show when pushing a certain key.
<!--quoteo(post=1961742:date=Aug 12 2012, 06:41 PM:name=sparriz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sparriz @ Aug 12 2012, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well if it is done for new players won't it just promote rambo style play. ie look it's a hive rush rush rush, hang on going in alone won't make any difference, but it's so red and shiney...
sigh... personally trying to ease new players in using this is just not that great, in my opinion.
<b>Having a hive targeted by comm as a priority target as well as other buildings would be great</b>, however just targeting comms and hives just because, is annoying and not very good as far as teamplay goes.
so I would like to see red hive etc... only if the comm targets it. That way you KNOW it's important.
thx for reading.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree to this, and could see it working out nicely, laying additional emphasis on an attack command from the commander. I also think spotted hives/CSs should be visible on the minimap, as was suggested in this thread.
I happened to convince two of my friends, who haven't played for a long time, to give it a try again. They asked me what the hive indicators where, and i told them they showed the location of spotted hives. They thought it was distracting, and that you'd still need the minimap to navigate through the map. So please keep the HUD clear of anything that's not related to actions the commander would want you to perform.
I don't really understand why this is in the game at all. If your commander wants you to take down hive or CC, chances are he'll tell you directly and/or indicate the hive with a waypoint anyways, which will actually give these new players directions to the objective. All this feature does is leave a glowing eyesore on the screen that constantly interferes with aiming and confuses new players (who are wondering what the glowing things they can see through walls are for and/or suiciding themselves trying to make their way to the "objective").
In Battlefield, the game probably used to justify this change, those objectives that are marked on the screen are the ONLY thing you're trying to get to - all you are trying to do is make your way to that place without dying, then holding the position for a long enough period of time to destroy or capture it. But in NS2 you might need to set up an RT to bring in resources, harass the enemy's economy or upgrades, kill a lifeform to deny PRES etc. along the way. It's confusing, and really probably not as useful to new players as the devs seem to think it is.
That said, I think the health indicators on the bottom of the screen that pop up when you enter a CC/Hive room ARE a good idea. Chances are that if your team has gotten that far, the Hive or CC is your #1 objective, and the health bar allows you to tell at a glance how close you are to achieving that objective.
I don't think it's a good idea, either. The thing is, even if it does show newbies where to go, it's probably a bad idea for them to go there. It's a bit like lemmings... It's better that a commander brings a team together and directs them when and where to attack.
I think this feature is just plain horrible. Intrusive, immersion breaking and dumb, going for the CC/hive is rarely the best strategy, and this encourages new players to do just that. Dont dumb down the game, NS is loved for its 'complexity'. I don't want NS2 to be a failure like diablo 3 which was made to cater the 'mainstream'.
How about a RTS style fog of war on minimap? That way players could see where stuff is, and maybe on the minimap have points of intrest highlighted by the COMMANDER.
The problem with adding it as a toggle in the options for the more experiences players who want to get rid of UI clutter is that for the new people who this is meant to be for, it's telling them the wrong thing. Getting to the CS/Hive is endgame, when the commander wants you to do it. It's where you should be staying away from the rest of the time.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1962561:date=Aug 13 2012, 11:53 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Aug 13 2012, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with adding it as a toggle in the options for the more experiences players who want to get rid of UI clutter is that for the new people who this is meant to be for, it's telling them the wrong thing. Getting to the CS/Hive is endgame, when the commander wants you to do it. It's where you should be staying away from the rest of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll +1 this..
Communication for new players is crucial. But this particular implementation is inadequate.
Comments
sigh...
personally trying to ease new players in using this is just not that great, in my opinion.
<b>Having a hive targeted by comm as a priority target as well as other buildings would be great</b>, however just targeting comms and hives just because, is annoying and not very good as far as teamplay goes.
so I would like to see red hive etc... only if the comm targets it.
That way you KNOW it's important.
thx for reading.
What we really need is the ability for the alien comm to give waypoints of some kind, imo.
That way you KNOW it's important.
thx for reading.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, this seems indeed the most logical step.
have to comm be able to target it, with a 20-30 second timer or something?
Just Highlight the enemy comm chair on the minimap when it's found out. That's all you need to do. It's simple. It's easy to implement. It's intuitive.
If you're lost. You look at a map. That's the ENTIRE point of a map.
Aye I agree
I think it would be enough with the commander being able to 'highlight' a specific hive/CC rather having all the hives/CCs highlighted, obviously some people will be running in all directions to each hive there would be on the map.
But anyway why work on a bunch of features filling up your screen only to turn them off, personally I think it would be good enough with the 'training vids' along with the 'new player tooltips' to make sure that new players have something to look up if they feel they need more info on this and that.
And I don't even want to comment on the new healthbar for the hives/CCs, when I saw it the first time I almost spilled some lampoil in terror of an upcoming boss fight, luckily it didn't come to that.... this time.
- Communicates the team's knowledge of what tech points the enemy has efficiently, even for players joining part way through a match.
<!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->Bad points<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->:
- Looks awful (fixable)
- Interferes with aiming if it's near the crosshair (fixable)
- As an objective marker, is inferior to the commander shift-click marker in pretty much every way.
An alternative way of achieving the good point is to make hives or CCs stay visible on the minimap after they've been spotted. This wouldn't be as obvious for new players who didn't know to check it, though you could add a pop-up a hint telling them to.
The aesthetic issues are solvable, so the main bad point is the objective marker issue. The hive/comm chair is only an objective when the commander or team strategy requires it to be. The commander shift-click markers seem to be really helpful at making disorganized pub teams converge on a location. The new tech point blips will probably do the same, but that is not generally a good thing.
Overall I'd much prefer improvements to the minimap and the comm shift-click alerts to this. Comm alerts are always relevant and worth imposing on your view, and the top down view of the minimap conveys much more information, and goes away when you don't need it.
sigh...
personally trying to ease new players in using this is just not that great, in my opinion.
<b>Having a hive targeted by comm as a priority target as well as other buildings would be great</b>, however just targeting comms and hives just because, is annoying and not very good as far as teamplay goes.
so I would like to see red hive etc... only if the comm targets it.
That way you KNOW it's important.
thx for reading.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree to this, and could see it working out nicely, laying additional emphasis on an attack command from the commander.
I also think spotted hives/CSs should be visible on the minimap, as was suggested in this thread.
I happened to convince two of my friends, who haven't played for a long time, to give it a try again. They asked me what the hive indicators where, and i told them they showed the location of spotted hives. They thought it was distracting, and that you'd still need the minimap to navigate through the map.
So please keep the HUD clear of anything that's not related to actions the commander would want you to perform.
In Battlefield, the game probably used to justify this change, those objectives that are marked on the screen are the ONLY thing you're trying to get to - all you are trying to do is make your way to that place without dying, then holding the position for a long enough period of time to destroy or capture it. But in NS2 you might need to set up an RT to bring in resources, harass the enemy's economy or upgrades, kill a lifeform to deny PRES etc. along the way. It's confusing, and really probably not as useful to new players as the devs seem to think it is.
That said, I think the health indicators on the bottom of the screen that pop up when you enter a CC/Hive room ARE a good idea. Chances are that if your team has gotten that far, the Hive or CC is your #1 objective, and the health bar allows you to tell at a glance how close you are to achieving that objective.
Example 1:
My mate buys NS2, plays it for 2 hours before I get home from work. I join marines, he joins aliens... What does he do the entire game?
Rush the CC, over and over 0 kills, 18 deaths. When I ask him why he is doing it, he says I thought that was how you win the game.
How about a RTS style fog of war on minimap? That way players could see where stuff is, and maybe on the minimap have points of intrest highlighted by the COMMANDER.
I'll +1 this..
Communication for new players is crucial. But this particular implementation is inadequate.