New Mutable Buildings

botchiball · August 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">Simpler, More Useful, More Interesting</div>New Mutable Buildings
This is an update to a previous idea (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">over here</a>). Was thinking about this concept lately in reference to other structures and boosting interaction with the Khamm (i.e. pushing the Gorge toward that "engineer" side). Tying into the OP, also trying to make the overall concept simpler for new players/new gorges as well as requiring less art assets. This is a replacement for the old mutations suggestions.

Concept:
To have the Gorge build more structures/have some say and importance in the building process besides simply "place face here".

Suggestion:
Clogs would be treated as they are currently (building blocks), as well as "points" towards upgrading other structures. While placing a Clog, hovering the non-built Clog on another structure, the player would see the new combined structure as a transparent green model and be shown a display with options of what upgrade the Gorge wants to provide. The Gorge would still have a limit of 10 Clogs, and in using Clogs in this "Upgrade" fashion, the Clog limit would still be filled up.

There would be two types of upgrades -> those which could be applied to any structure, and those which were unique to each structure.

Universal Upgrades -
Cancerous Growth: Clog attaches to the structure and provides an additional "health pool" which will be drawn from first. The limitation of maximum damage stays, so that a building will gain a slight resistance to Grenades while this Growth is still alive. No requirement.

Health Booster: Clog provides a regeneration effect to the structure it is attached to. Quicker than natural structure heal but slower than healspray. Requires Crag Hive.

Shroud: Clog provides a camouflage effect to the structure it is attached to (same as Shade effect). Requires Shade Hive.

Incubation: Clog expands around the structure, providing an increased rate at which a structure will mature. Provides nothing after the structure has grown - Clog shrivels and dies at this point, going back to Gorge. Requires Shift Hive.

Unique Upgrades -
Hydra: Tiamat -> Hydras damage is upgraded from Normal Type to Puncture Type - dealing an extra 25% damage to players. Health and Armor are also given a 25% boost. Could be displayed visually by adding two heads to the Hydra's three.

Hive: Spined Carapace -> Clog provides the hive with sharp spines sticking out the top - making it so a Marine landing on top of the Hive will take damage upon landing (but not affecting them otherwise - not constant damage). Assists in keeping Jet-Packers away from the top of the hive.

Harvester: Explosive Gas -> Clog fills itself with excess gas from the Harvester's work - upon the Harvester's death this gas is released in a large AOE of instant damage as well as a lingering cloud of poison. Provides nothing if Harvester does not die.

Whip: Bubble Crush -> Clog gives the Whip a new ability which allows the Whip to squeeze its fluid orb to the point that it pops and splatters acid in an area around itself. This attack can be made while the Clog is not rooted - turning the Whip into a mobile building killer.

Crag: Spore Ejection -> If a fire is detected in an area around the Crag, mass amounts of spores are released to extinguish the flame. Lasting fire damage is ended for players within range of this upgraded Crag, does not stop a Flamethrower from causing damage - only removes the DOT.

Shade: Tendrils -> Clog becomes multiple little Tendrils coming out of the Shade in an area which mark any Marines who bump into them, Marines cannot see without a Ping from Commander. Bumping into a Tendril does not reveal the Shade's location.

Shift: Enzyme -> Clog unlocks Enzyme as an ability for the Shift. Khamm must activate to use.

Cyst: Rupture -> The Clog would merge together with the Cyst forming a large orange sack with little hairs sticking off. Any marine touching the hairs causes the Cyst Trap to rupture outward, doing minor damage in a radius but also marking any marine in range so they are visible to hive sight. This ruptured material would take time to evaporate, and during that time medpacks would not function (for an effected marine). The material could be burnt off with a welder to speed the process, and nano-shields would prevent the material from applying. The Cyst Trap would also be visible and able to be attacked at range (unless camouflaged).

Application & Use
As said above, a Gorge trying to place a Clog on open ground would simply place the clog as they do now. While hovering a transparent "placing" Clog over another structure, a menu is made visible to the Gorge which displays the different upgrades available - upgrades which are not available would be grayed out. The Gorge would then make their selection with either a number key or via clicking, the menu would go away, the structure would "mutate", and the Gorge would lose one Clog allocation. The Gorge would have access to destroy their upgrade at any time by looking at the structure and holding the "Use" key as per now. This would return the mutated structure to its original state. Also it would be nice if Gorges could place additional Clogs, destroying the first in succession, and if they had the ability to destroy all active Clogs.

Visually the "mutation" could be as simple as a varied color, or as a standardized glowing "growth" similar to a Cyst which is merely attached to a bone on the structure, or as a model swap with the same. The idea is that Marines would be able to see the difference, but only if they knew what to look for. The Hydra, Hive, and Shade upgrades would all be slight model swaps or additions, and the Shade Tendrils would be the most difficult of the three as it would take some ingenuity to get them to look like they are flowing properly.

I'm thinking that only a single upgrade should be allowed per structure, or possibly one per structure per hive. I would be worried about the monstrosity of a Hive that too many Clogs in this system could create -> but then that would be half the fun. The limit of 10 clogs would be left as is to keep the upgrades as a situational advantage -> otherwise Gorges could become too powerful. Its possible that a bonus of 5 or so Clogs per Hive could be more interesting.

Please let me know what you think.

Benson · August 2012

I like the idea of clogs being used as a stem-cell of sorts. It feels right since they are little balls of infestation, and in theory, all alien structures start growing from within the infestation.

This idea has a few benefits:

1) keeps the gorge active throughout the whole game
2) important alien structures would be more durable (or uniquely useful), especially late game when clogs were spread around
3) makes alien structures feel more "alive" as they would mutate throughout the game, and one structure would not be the same as another
4) Improves gorge usefulness without interfering with how the Kahmm works, keeping both with unique roles.
5) Could already work with the "clipping" feature clogs already have to each other, letting the player know they are attaching a clog to a structure.

That being said, I could forsee a few issues:

1) Having multiple types of upgrades per structure could be confusing and would require a new UI for the gorge (no time before 1.0 probably)
2) Recycling clogs once fused with a structure could be problematic if the structure is physically changed (new models/animations- no time before 1.0)
3) The limit of 10 clogs would have to be increased to compensate for their wide variety of uses (or would scale with hives like they used to, +5 per i think)

All in all, i would say this would be a subtle change to gorge mechanics that would vastly improve their feel and usefulness without breaking them. My primary concern for this would be communicating to the player what change would occur in the various structures (I.E. how would a player know that clogging a hive would make spikes on top for anti jp?). This could easily be worked around, but would require simplifying the clog upgrades to one type (GL resistance only?), or 1 unique benefit for every structure which is described as the gorge is hovering the clog over the structure, for example: "Clogged Harvester: Harvester generates deadly spores that are released upon death". (i <3 the poison gas on harvesters)

botchiball · August 2012

Thanks Benson, you made me realize that I forgot a section of which I wanted to discuss -> I added "Application & Use" at the bottom of the OP which addresses several of the things you talked about.

With the issues you foresee:
1) I was thinking of only 1 upgrade per structure, thereby limiting the Gorge so they don't just stack Clogs all over everywhere and superpower their base. The idea is to give a "situational advantage" - like the 3 free Hydras which help the Gorge hold an area but are next to useless on their own.
2) I'm thinking simple changes to models or the addition of a "growth" model which could be used in most situations. Definitely not new animations.
3) While I would love to see more clogs, there is still the server work load to think of - and the Clogs would still be usable as Clogs, not just upgrades. Besides, keeping it as 10 possible upgrades or 10 wall clogs limits what the Gorge is able to do while still giving them a lot of power. It would make the Gorge have to choose between two options (which is important -> choices that matter).

And below you mention how the player would know -> it would be in a text display on the build menu which is talked about above (and is similar to your description). Also the player would have a visual of (in your example) the hive being spine covered.

3del! · August 2012

these are a lot of suggestions. :)
Here are some thoughts:

In general, there are so many options, that it would be really confusing at first. 5 choices per building are too many i think, and one of them specific for each building will be even more confusing. With a really good and thoughtout design, this could be placeable, but i think it would still be hard to grasp.
Also i think some of your suggestions would fit the role of the khamm better, or rather could lead to a lot of frustration for the khamm and the team, if they'd rely on the gorge to apply them. Specifically:
- Cancerous Growth
- Health Booster
- Hive: Spined Carapace
- Crag: Spore Ejection
- Shade: Tendrils
- Shift: Enzyme
if something like this would be implemented, it would be very vital for the alien team, and force gorges to get it. I could see these as khamm abilities though.

some specific remarks:
Shroud: Clog provides a camouflage effect to the structure it is attached to (same as Shade effect). Requires Shade Hive.
-> i like this idea. i could see it used to cloak some specific upgrade chambers. Since the khamm could place a shade for the same effect, there wouldn't be a problem, if there'd be no gorge around, but it could make the interaction if there's a gorge more interesting.

btw. do you think these upgrades should cost the gorge pres? because i think they'd have to, and not to few. :)

Hydra: Tiamat -> Hydras damage is upgraded from Normal Type to Puncture Type - dealing an extra 25% damage to players. Health and Armor are also given a 25% boost. Could be displayed visually by adding two heads to the Hydra's three.
-> i think this is redundant. This would become a necessary upgrade for the hydras, or be overpowered.

Harvester: Explosive Gas -> Clog fills itself with excess gas from the Harvester's work - upon the Harvester's death this gas is released in a large AOE of instant damage as well as a lingering cloud of poison. Provides nothing if Harvester does not die.
-> this would be some fun, but ultimately would be a noob trap, if you could see the upgrade as a marine.

Whip: Bubble Crush -> Clog gives the Whip a new ability which allows the Whip to squeeze its fluid orb to the point that it pops and splatters acid in an area around itself. This attack can be made while the Clog is not rooted - turning the Whip into a mobile building killer.
-> if i understand you correctly, this would be like a mobile bilebomb for the khamm. I think it would be good, to involve the khamm in the fights a bit more, but it would overlap with bilebomb and might be hard to balance.

Cyst: Rupture -> The Clog would merge together with the Cyst forming a large orange sack with little hairs sticking off. Any marine touching the hairs causes the Cyst Trap to rupture outward, doing minor damage in a radius but also marking any marine in range so they are visible to hive sight. This ruptured material would take time to evaporate, and during that time medpacks would not function (for an effected marine). The material could be burnt off with a welder to speed the process, and nano-shields would prevent the material from applying. The Cyst Trap would also be visible and able to be attacked at range (unless camouflaged).
-> Giving the gorge the ability to mark marines for hivesight via a bomb is a neat idea. It's somewhat identical to parasite, but could help the gorge get attention when his position is under attack. I'd like the gorge to have the ability to evolve a cyst so it grants hivesight. But i don't think anything should prevent the commander from aplying medpacks.

botchiball · August 2012

Wow, some excellent points 3del! : ). I'll try to address your comments as organized as I can:

Confusion with using this system at first:
Well you said there would be 5 options per structure, but when a game starts there would actually only be 2 options: Health Booster, and the unique upgrade. The other three universal upgrades require a Hive to become active, so as the hives would unlock these new options, the Gorge player would slowly be able to use them - and be eased into the system by nature of the process.

Having a Khamm provide these options/causing frustration:
As I see it now, it is already frustrating with the system of requiring Gorges to build structures, but the Gorges having no say in whats going on. While it may be interesting for a Khamm to be able to provide these upgrades themselves - the idea is that the Gorge needs another task to do. Just for the sake of humoring the idea and practical application -> having a Drifter attach itself to a building would be a perfect way to demonstrate visually that there is an upgrade on said structure. However, the Gorge is the issue, not the Khamm. If the ability to build was taken away from Gorge and this system was given to the Khamm, what would a Gorge do then? Besides, its supposed to be a vital addition to the game, that's exactly what the Gorge is lacking right now.

Should these upgrades cost PRes:
I would lean toward "no" because these upgrades are already costing the Gorge 1 Clog allocation. Since there are only 10, that would be used up fairly quickly - and would remove the Gorge's Clog Wall from play. That being said, if Hydra's are truly going to cost PRes again, then it would only make sense for these to cost something as well.

Tiamat would always be used and would be redundant:
Completely agreed, I'm sorry I didn't catch that myself. This is actually one of the last ones I thought up, as the issue is: how do you upgrade a Hydra without making it always necessary?

Harvester Gas Trap would be a noob trap:
Yes and no. Remember that Marines have limited bullets -> so an intelligent Marine would use their axe down to a low % and then shoot it the rest of the way at a safe distance. But Harvesters are incredibly important, and should a Kharaa happen along, the marine may well decide that killing the Harvester is worth their life. Also there is the lingering gas -> the idea of which is to slow/prevent movement of the Marines. In the case of being centered on the Harvester, this would hopefully kill a marine, or set up the Kharaan troops with a better chance of retribution.

Bubble Crush possibly hard to balance:
This was another 'took a long time' idea, however I think this one works a bit better. It would not work quite like BileBomb, it would be more like Bombard except the Whip would need to be directly next to the structures it was attacking. So a Khamm would tunnel a line of whips directly into a marine base and activate the Bubble Crush, doing damage to marine structures and armor. But since the Whips aren't rooted, they wouldn't be able to swing at marines -> leaving them fairly defenseless. Now reading this it sounds very close to ARCs, so maybe it wouldn't be a good idea as the asymmetry would be reduced; it wouldn't be exactly the same thing, but close enough to bother people I imagine.

Cyst Rupture - interesting but don't like meds block:
I still rather like this one. Its completely block-able with nano-shield, so an active comm can stop it from working; and if a marine is hit with one, it can be burnt off with a welder - or will be removed with the duration is up. Therefore its really only punishing those who aren't checking or aren't prepared.

Any suggestions with what kind of upgrade could be given to the Hydras/Whips that wouldn't be too powerful or symmetrical with the Marines?

3del! · August 2012

In my opinion, the gorge should be less builder and more frontline support. Sure, they should be needed to heal damaged structures, but i don't think they should be required to get certain upgrades, since it could make the khamm too dependend on them. This could lead to the khamm going gorge and using his pres, which he could use to provide preevolved eggs, to upgrade base structures. So i think that the roles of khamm and gorge should be rather independant of each other. Therefore i think the gorge should have more combat abilities, and not be required to walk all over the map to upgrade structures.
If i remember correctly, the gorge is still missing his hive 3 ability. I don't know what was planned for it, but i think it was primal scream. I think he should also get his webs back, and i think he should have a third structure he can place. Him being able to upgrade structures with some kind of defense, like the harvester and cyst suggestions, could fit his role as well, i think.

About hydra upgrades: There could be hive dependant hydra upgrades, that have up and downsides like this:
shift: hydras are smaller, have less health, but have higher dps.
shell: hydras are bigger and have more hp, but do less dps.
shade: hydras are silent and have less hp, but do the same dps as normal.

I can't think of something for the whips.

I was just thinking: What would happen, if i knife a harvester to low hp and Mr. Noob or Griefer happen to come by while i'm at it? :)
Mabe the harvester could have some poisonous skin, so knifing it does some damage, and you should rather shoot it?

Realistically, i don't think UWE will implement such i imagine intricate changes until some time after release. But these ideas have some mod potential. Unfortunately i'm a programming analphabet :)

botchiball · August 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3del! @ Aug 11 2012, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>In my opinion, the gorge should be less builder and more frontline support. Sure, they should be needed to heal damaged structures, but i don't think they should be required to get certain upgrades, since it could make the khamm too dependend on them. This could lead to the khamm going gorge and using his pres, which he could use to provide preevolved eggs, to upgrade base structures. So i think that the roles of khamm and gorge should be rather independant of each other. Therefore i think the gorge should have more combat abilities, and not be required to walk all over the map to upgrade structures.
If i remember correctly, the gorge is still missing his hive 3 ability. I don't know what was planned for it, but i think it was primal scream. I think he should also get his webs back, and i think he should have a third structure he can place. Him being able to upgrade structures with some kind of defense, like the harvester and cyst suggestions, could fit his role as well, i think.

About hydra upgrades: There could be hive dependant hydra upgrades, that have up and downsides like this:
shift: hydras are smaller, have less health, but have higher dps.
shell: hydras are bigger and have more hp, but do less dps.
shade: hydras are silent and have less hp, but do the same dps as normal.</div>

I'm not big on the Hydra suggestions you gave - just in that they are negative as well as positive - as none of the other upgrades are like this. If these mutable buildings were switched to the Khamm, then it wouldn't matter as much that the Tiamat suggestion was always more powerful -> the Khamm would still have to be interested in the Gorge's doings, and willing to provide the TRes for it. Would likely cause a lot of griefing though, with Gorge's begging to have the Hydras upgraded. Probably a bad idea to include Hydras in the list of structures to upgrade if the Khamm is in control.

Totally agree with the bit I highlighted in orange. You've mostly talked me out of my idea, lol, these would fit the Khamm more than a Gorge. I also agree that as a Khamm ability it would be mostly fluff -> interesting but unnecessary, and likely would make a better mod. Thanks for all the good critiques.

The question then is still: what should the Gorge gain which is more combat related and makes playing as them fun again?
<ul><li>Maybe something more akin to the TF2 medic's build up toward a more powerful ability?</li><li>Maybe the ability to move structures? (but that's building related)</li><li>Maybe more status effect abilities like additional damage taken or hallucinations, which the Gorge could spit out in a cone in front of them?</li><li>Maybe control over a swarm of smaller creatures like babblers (if they ever get into the game)?</li></ul>

The major problem which needs to be overcome is getting the Gorge's role to be less AI intelligence level and more interesting/influential on the game around them.

The 3rd hive ability is called the "Spider" unless its changed. But UWE isn't saying what it does until they release it, like the exosuit. Primal Scream is going to the Onos if i recall correctly. None of the 3 hive abilities can be all that important though, as they'll almost never be seen with the way the upgrade system works.

3del! · August 2012

Yes, third hive abilities won't solve it.
I meant the hydra upgrades to be applicable by the gorge, once a hive is shade/shift/shell, so the gorge doesn't rely too much on the comm. And the upgrades should be free.

And i really think the gorge should have another structure to place. My idea was for him to have some kind of remotely dotonated bomb. Or maybe a goo pool, which slows marines down.

New Mutable Buildings

Comments