<!--quoteo(post=1959754:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:18 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 9 2012, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was giving a reference where strict combat upgrades are proven to not be as important as other upgrades.
Speed, Silence, and Cloaking so on are not gimmicks. They are pwoerful tools when used in tehright hands. Much more interesting than straight +Armor or +Dmg in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speed can be useful in combat by making you fast enough to strafe around a marine (evasive) and avoid bullets. Celerity doesn't allow you to do this because it disables itself in combat and the ramp up time on it makes it a gimmick. If they removed the gimmicky ramp up and kept it a flat rate (a la NS1), then it might be up to par. Your fade example doesn't work since blink is a 2nd hive requirement.
Cloaking is a joke. You're still visible while moving even at a snails pace. I enjoy seeing cloaked skulks try to sneak around because they're free kills.
Silence is decent, but only good for a surprise ambush and the usefulness of it diminishes as the game develops. Silence isn't going to help you much against early shotguns.
Adrenaline is only useful as a secondary upgrade, no starting ability uses enough energy to warrant taking adrenaline first. Please don't say lerks. 1 hive lerks are an abomination and it pains me to see people wasting 30 resources on early game lerks. Gorges mabbe. But adren for one gorge (or lerk) vs carapace for 5+ skulks. I'm sure that's quite the difficult choice, lemme tell you...
Hyper-mutation is a joke. Enough said.
Regeneration only activates out of combat and not really "worth" taking as a first upgrade. It's not going to keep you alive in the heat of combat to secure the kill like carapace does. If perhaps regen worked during combat (with a nerf in its healing rate), then you could possibly argue its usefulness to take as a first upgrade.
Focus. Still. Does. Not. Exist. For. God. Knows. What. Reason. And. It's. Getting. Absolutely. Freaking. Ridiculous. That. They. Still. Have. Yet. To. Add. It. To. The. Game.
It's not like it matters what they do at this point. They've squandered their time at any possible real fixes for Alien game scaling, or the mess with carapace. Now what ever they do, carapace is going to be too weak or too strong, and the forums are going to be riddled with crying masses over it each week... like it is now.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Do we are talking of Pub or competitive play here? I nearly never use cara and im sure most of the marineplayers on pubs didnt realize that. I love the super fast celerity skulk. Silent as an extra and im in skulk heaven :)
An competittive enviroment is another story for sure.
<!--quoteo(post=1959790:date=Aug 9 2012, 01:08 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Aug 9 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do we are talking of Pub or competitive play here? I nearly never use cara and im sure most of the marineplayers on pubs didnt realize that. I love the super fast celerity skulk. Silent as an extra and im in skulk heaven :)
An competittive enviroment is another story for sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't take carapace either since I don't like feeling as if I have weights tied to my ankles and I can do pretty damn well against pub marines that suck at aiming. Then you get those 2 or 3 marines that know how to aim, and well, I end up having to take carapace because every bit of armor helps.
Celerity would be better, if it wasn't tied down to gimmicky crap. The amazing ramp ups! Brings so much immersion and fun to the game. Yeah... no.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
Skulk without cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 10 bullets. Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 18 bullets. Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 3: 14 bullets.
See anything wrong with this picture?
Yup, cara is twice as powerful as the lvl 3 weapons upgrade.
Now guess which of them is twice as expensive as the other.
<!--quoteo(post=1959806:date=Aug 9 2012, 10:06 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 9 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk without cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 10 bullets. Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 18 bullets. Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 3: 14 bullets.
See anything wrong with this picture?
Yup, cara is twice as powerful as the lvl 3 weapons upgrade.
Now guess which of them is twice as expensive as the other.
Carapace is broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1959806:date=Aug 9 2012, 10:06 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 9 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk without cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 10 bullets. Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 18 bullets. Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 3: 14 bullets.
See anything wrong with this picture?
Yup, cara is twice as powerful as the lvl 3 weapons upgrade.
Now guess which of them is twice as expensive as the other.
Carapace is broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mostly agree. But again, you're missing the point of my original post. These upgrades before have been done in such a way and utilized so that they are useful, and preferred over the +armor, +dmg upgrades. Therefore, they are viable and not something to be ignored, which is what the original post was complaining about.
NS2 in its current state, as you so aptly show, is not setup for that. Carapace dominates games. Cloak sorta helps but isn't as powerful. ETc etc etc.
In short, they could work. They did work. They don't work right now.
EDIT: For reference: <!--quoteo(post=1959465:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:56 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Aug 8 2012, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anything that improves combat killing power and combat survivability are always the top upgrades in any game. The logical choice would to always take those first before any gimmicky upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My main point is most of these other upgrades, at least in NS1's paradigm, could be leveraged for more killing power or survivability. Celerity to close gaps. Regen so you didn't have to waste time running back to the Hive for a heal. Cloak for ambushes. Silence to sneak up and take out a squad from behind without them knowing you killed their buddy. Scent of Fear to monitor where they were and how many so you could flank from around blind corners. These were not gimmicks before. But perhaps they are now in NS2.
Sat down and thought about it some more. I think I have the reason.
Back in NS1 getting the chambers meant you got 3 upgrades for the Aliens. In NS2, your Hive evolution unlocks all 3 techs, but you have to upgrade each one individually.
As a result we see most Hives picking up only 1 upgrade, maybe the 2nd.
In the early days of NS1, DC was the preferred upgrade for the same reasons as in NS2 now. Carapace, while not a huge boost, was just enough of a boost. It was later people realized the flexibility and map control of MC was a winner, plus enabling Celerity Fades and Adren/Celerity Lerks.
However, now, if we can only pick 1 upgrade, Carapace is a clear winner in the current setup. Getting all three Shift abilities takes too long/investment. Plus they aren't quite as potent, or at least the perception is so.
Interesting how subtle mechanic changes can radically alter perception and gameplay choices.
<!--quoteo(post=1959806:date=Aug 9 2012, 02:06 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 9 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk without cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 10 bullets. Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 18 bullets. Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 3: 14 bullets.
See anything wrong with this picture?
Yup, cara is twice as powerful as the lvl 3 weapons upgrade.
Now guess which of them is twice as expensive as the other.
Carapace is broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1959806:date=Aug 9 2012, 10:06 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 9 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk without cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 10 bullets. Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 18 bullets. Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 3: 14 bullets.
See anything wrong with this picture?
Yup, cara is twice as powerful as the lvl 3 weapons upgrade.
Now guess which of them is twice as expensive as the other.
Carapace is broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do u calculate the speed-decrease of carapace?
the speed decrease might make them only 10-15% weaker (just a guess)
in an ambush situation the speed decrease does nothing though.
so they're still 85-90% stronger with the speed decrease. the current wacky wall-walking hit-boxes makes skulks (who wall-walk) impossible to hit anyways... no matter what speeds :S
<!--quoteo(post=1959848:date=Aug 9 2012, 12:54 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 9 2012, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, but the thing is, you need to give stuff to do to the alien comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course. I'm not saying this new method is broken, I'm just figuring out why there's such a heavy bias towards Carapace. Partly it is due to math, stats, performance, and meta but partly I believe it is also due to how we buy upgrades now.
What is the most cost-effective single upgrade at Hive1? That is the new question. Not which set of upgrades do we want, which is what you asked in NS1.
I haven't done the math, but my guess is they cost about the same to get all the upgrades in a tech path. And yet we now optimize around picking and choosing only 1 or 2 of the upgrades from any particular tech branch as a discount instead of teching all of them. This fundamentally shifts the tech patterns from spend X get the suite of abilities that work for all cases to let's spend X/3 and get one universal upgrade. Which in NS2 appears to be carapace at this time. Maybe later it will be only Celerity. Or only Focus.
Just something to keep in the back of your mind when thinking about all of this.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1959867:date=Aug 9 2012, 09:32 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 9 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is the most cost-effective single upgrade at Hive1? That is the new question. Not which set of upgrades do we want, which is what you asked in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Currently, you don't even want to get any upgrades on hive1. The "best" strategy in b215 is to fast-drop a hive with hydras and clogs. Then get two harvesters. Then get leap. Then get cara. Then get regen. Then get blink. Then it doesn't matter what you do, because you've already won.
<!--quoteo(post=1959860:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:14 AM:name=therake6)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (therake6 @ Aug 10 2012, 06:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you don't have cara on level 3 how many is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 7
<!--quoteo(post=1959864:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:19 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Aug 10 2012, 06:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do u calculate the speed-decrease of carapace?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Short Answer </b> Its Irrelevant for two reasons 1) The calculation is not transparant to the player 2) As you are damaged back down to base armour (or 10 for skulks), your speed simply increases back to whatever it would be without carapace.
Basically you get the base speed * (1- (% ammount of Cara left * relevant above values))
So for skulk with 7 base speed at 100% cara, or 50 armour its 7 * (1 - (1 * 0.08)) = 6.45 If you have 50% cara left, or 30 armour your speed is now 7 * (1 - (0.5 * 0.08)) = 6.72 If you have 0% cara left, or 10 armour its 7*1=7
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently, you don't even want to get any upgrades on hive1. The "best" strategy in b215 is to fast-drop a hive with hydras and clogs. Then get two harvesters. Then get leap. Then get cara. Then get regen. Then get blink. Then it doesn't matter what you do, because you've already won.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> qft. Personally i think its better to get the 2 harvestors before the fast hive, but really its all the same thing.
so today in mineshaft, 3 skulks (us) were able to run into marine start (drill repair) headlong into a group of 3 marines from across the room. after cleaning up all 3 marines, 2 more had spawnned in from their 3 ips. Long story short, 3 skulks overpowered a marine base that had 3 ips without losing a single skulk (and we didn't spread out as 1 skulk per ip).
Effectively: in the first 3 min of the game, 3 skulks can overpower a marine base with 3 ips constantly spawning people in without losing a single base lifeform.
Either the 3-shells for ful lpower system needs to be brought back, or cara needs to go back to previous levels
Wow so skulks only lose .08% of their base speed with full carapace? Holy moly that's a drastic speed decrease. Gain 90% net-health and lose nearly 10% speed. Good trade off, leave carapace the way it is! *rolls eyes*
<!--quoteo(post=1959882:date=Aug 10 2012, 07:06 AM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Aug 10 2012, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either the 3-shells for ful lpower system needs to be brought back, or cara needs to go back to previous levels<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The idea that cara should stay at 50 and be balanced by increasing the tres cost doesn't solve the majority of underlying problems which are 1) It doesn't feel right shooting cara skulks with that much hp 2) It synergises too well with leap / feign death / celerity 3) It is a gross overcompensation for scaling power 4) It allows lazy skulk play 5) It severely messes with shotgun tactics and how teams (especially small sized 6 v 6) approach map control. 6) It is still the number one upgrade chosen by players for all lifeforms (separate from the tres outlay decision) *edit* 7) It really messes with pistol sniping as its light damage. Full 10 pistol bullets at w0 will not kill a cara skulk. It also comes with added complication such as - even more convoluted speed decrease mechanics - Needing to re-add 3 chamber mechanic to shift and shade trees as well. If it was tied to hives, we simply get more 1 hive, 2 hive, 3 hive determinism
So yes, Cara should simply just go back down to 30. Long overdue.
<!--quoteo(post=1960566:date=Aug 10 2012, 10:01 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 10 2012, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quickly - yep, Skulk cara has already been reduced to 30 for 217. That should arrive to you next week.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great news. My gun won't feel like as much of a peashooter, and coincidentally I'll be able to play Alien again. It's actually my favorite race, but I stopped playing because Aliens had too much of an advantage pre-patch...and even after it still felt like Skulks could absorb way too many hits. Going to enjoy going back to Skulk and trying to play stealthy.
<!--quoteo(post=1960566:date=Aug 10 2012, 10:01 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 10 2012, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quickly - yep, Skulk cara has already been reduced to 30 for 217. That should arrive to you next week.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't mind the aliens being able to soak a little more damage, if the marine movement didn't feel like a tree simulator. I want to be able to dodge them again :-/
<!--quoteo(post=1960566:date=Aug 10 2012, 01:01 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 10 2012, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quickly - yep, Skulk cara has already been reduced to 30 for 217. That should arrive to you next week.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1960964:date=Aug 11 2012, 01:17 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Aug 11 2012, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The movement penalty is still there, remember that only the skulks carapace armour value was altered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so what we have is a reversion to old values wherein skulks have 30 armor with carapace AND slower movement.
Comments
Speed, Silence, and Cloaking so on are not gimmicks. They are pwoerful tools when used in tehright hands. Much more interesting than straight +Armor or +Dmg in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speed can be useful in combat by making you fast enough to strafe around a marine (evasive) and avoid bullets. Celerity doesn't allow you to do this because it disables itself in combat and the ramp up time on it makes it a gimmick. If they removed the gimmicky ramp up and kept it a flat rate (a la NS1), then it might be up to par. Your fade example doesn't work since blink is a 2nd hive requirement.
Cloaking is a joke. You're still visible while moving even at a snails pace. I enjoy seeing cloaked skulks try to sneak around because they're free kills.
Silence is decent, but only good for a surprise ambush and the usefulness of it diminishes as the game develops. Silence isn't going to help you much against early shotguns.
Adrenaline is only useful as a secondary upgrade, no starting ability uses enough energy to warrant taking adrenaline first. Please don't say lerks. 1 hive lerks are an abomination and it pains me to see people wasting 30 resources on early game lerks. Gorges mabbe. But adren for one gorge (or lerk) vs carapace for 5+ skulks. I'm sure that's quite the difficult choice, lemme tell you...
Hyper-mutation is a joke. Enough said.
Regeneration only activates out of combat and not really "worth" taking as a first upgrade. It's not going to keep you alive in the heat of combat to secure the kill like carapace does. If perhaps regen worked during combat (with a nerf in its healing rate), then you could possibly argue its usefulness to take as a first upgrade.
Focus. Still. Does. Not. Exist. For. God. Knows. What. Reason. And. It's. Getting. Absolutely. Freaking. Ridiculous. That. They. Still. Have. Yet. To. Add. It. To. The. Game.
It's not like it matters what they do at this point. They've squandered their time at any possible real fixes for Alien game scaling, or the mess with carapace. Now what ever they do, carapace is going to be too weak or too strong, and the forums are going to be riddled with crying masses over it each week... like it is now.
An competittive enviroment is another story for sure.
An competittive enviroment is another story for sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't take carapace either since I don't like feeling as if I have weights tied to my ankles and I can do pretty damn well against pub marines that suck at aiming. Then you get those 2 or 3 marines that know how to aim, and well, I end up having to take carapace because every bit of armor helps.
Celerity would be better, if it wasn't tied down to gimmicky crap. The amazing ramp ups! Brings so much immersion and fun to the game. Yeah... no.
Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 18 bullets.
Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 3: 14 bullets.
See anything wrong with this picture?
Yup, cara is twice as powerful as the lvl 3 weapons upgrade.
Now guess which of them is twice as expensive as the other.
Carapace is broken.
Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 18 bullets.
Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 3: 14 bullets.
See anything wrong with this picture?
Yup, cara is twice as powerful as the lvl 3 weapons upgrade.
Now guess which of them is twice as expensive as the other.
Carapace is broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this ^^^^^
Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 18 bullets.
Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 3: 14 bullets.
See anything wrong with this picture?
Yup, cara is twice as powerful as the lvl 3 weapons upgrade.
Now guess which of them is twice as expensive as the other.
Carapace is broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For once I agree with the angry viking.
Mostly agree. But again, you're missing the point of my original post. These upgrades before have been done in such a way and utilized so that they are useful, and preferred over the +armor, +dmg upgrades. Therefore, they are viable and not something to be ignored, which is what the original post was complaining about.
NS2 in its current state, as you so aptly show, is not setup for that. Carapace dominates games. Cloak sorta helps but isn't as powerful. ETc etc etc.
In short, they could work. They did work. They don't work right now.
EDIT:
For reference:
<!--quoteo(post=1959465:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:56 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Aug 8 2012, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anything that improves combat killing power and combat survivability are always the top upgrades in any game. The logical choice would to always take those first before any gimmicky upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My main point is most of these other upgrades, at least in NS1's paradigm, could be leveraged for more killing power or survivability. Celerity to close gaps. Regen so you didn't have to waste time running back to the Hive for a heal. Cloak for ambushes. Silence to sneak up and take out a squad from behind without them knowing you killed their buddy. Scent of Fear to monitor where they were and how many so you could flank from around blind corners. These were not gimmicks before. But perhaps they are now in NS2.
Back in NS1 getting the chambers meant you got 3 upgrades for the Aliens. In NS2, your Hive evolution unlocks all 3 techs, but you have to upgrade each one individually.
As a result we see most Hives picking up only 1 upgrade, maybe the 2nd.
In the early days of NS1, DC was the preferred upgrade for the same reasons as in NS2 now. Carapace, while not a huge boost, was just enough of a boost. It was later people realized the flexibility and map control of MC was a winner, plus enabling Celerity Fades and Adren/Celerity Lerks.
However, now, if we can only pick 1 upgrade, Carapace is a clear winner in the current setup. Getting all three Shift abilities takes too long/investment. Plus they aren't quite as potent, or at least the perception is so.
Interesting how subtle mechanic changes can radically alter perception and gameplay choices.
Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 18 bullets.
Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 3: 14 bullets.
See anything wrong with this picture?
Yup, cara is twice as powerful as the lvl 3 weapons upgrade.
Now guess which of them is twice as expensive as the other.
Carapace is broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't have cara on level 3 how many is it?
Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 0: 18 bullets.
Skulk with cara vs. marine weapon lvl 3: 14 bullets.
See anything wrong with this picture?
Yup, cara is twice as powerful as the lvl 3 weapons upgrade.
Now guess which of them is twice as expensive as the other.
Carapace is broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do u calculate the speed-decrease of carapace?
in an ambush situation the speed decrease does nothing though.
so they're still 85-90% stronger with the speed decrease. the current wacky wall-walking hit-boxes makes skulks (who wall-walk) impossible to hit anyways... no matter what speeds :S
Of course. I'm not saying this new method is broken, I'm just figuring out why there's such a heavy bias towards Carapace. Partly it is due to math, stats, performance, and meta but partly I believe it is also due to how we buy upgrades now.
What is the most cost-effective single upgrade at Hive1? That is the new question. Not which set of upgrades do we want, which is what you asked in NS1.
I haven't done the math, but my guess is they cost about the same to get all the upgrades in a tech path. And yet we now optimize around picking and choosing only 1 or 2 of the upgrades from any particular tech branch as a discount instead of teching all of them. This fundamentally shifts the tech patterns from spend X get the suite of abilities that work for all cases to let's spend X/3 and get one universal upgrade. Which in NS2 appears to be carapace at this time. Maybe later it will be only Celerity. Or only Focus.
Just something to keep in the back of your mind when thinking about all of this.
Currently, you don't even want to get any upgrades on hive1. The "best" strategy in b215 is to fast-drop a hive with hydras and clogs. Then get two harvesters. Then get leap. Then get cara. Then get regen. Then get blink. Then it doesn't matter what you do, because you've already won.
7
<!--quoteo(post=1959864:date=Aug 10 2012, 06:19 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Aug 10 2012, 06:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do u calculate the speed-decrease of carapace?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Short Answer </b>
Its Irrelevant for two reasons
1) The calculation is not transparant to the player
2) As you are damaged back down to base armour (or 10 for skulks), your speed simply increases back to whatever it would be without carapace.
<b>Long Answer</b>
kCarapaceSpeedReduction = 0.0
kSkulkCarapaceSpeedReduction = 0.08
kGorgeCarapaceSpeedReduction = 0.08
kLerkCarapaceSpeedReduction = 0.15
kFadeCarapaceSpeedReduction = 0.15
kOnosCarapaceSpeedReduction = 0.12
return 1 - self:GetCarapaceFraction() * self:GetCarapaceSpeedReduction()
Basically you get the base speed * (1- (% ammount of Cara left * relevant above values))
So for skulk with 7 base speed at 100% cara, or 50 armour its
7 * (1 - (1 * 0.08)) = 6.45
If you have 50% cara left, or 30 armour your speed is now
7 * (1 - (0.5 * 0.08)) = 6.72
If you have 0% cara left, or 10 armour its
7*1=7
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently, you don't even want to get any upgrades on hive1. The "best" strategy in b215 is to fast-drop a hive with hydras and clogs. Then get two harvesters. Then get leap. Then get cara. Then get regen. Then get blink. Then it doesn't matter what you do, because you've already won.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
qft. Personally i think its better to get the 2 harvestors before the fast hive, but really its all the same thing.
Effectively: in the first 3 min of the game, 3 skulks can overpower a marine base with 3 ips constantly spawning people in without losing a single base lifeform.
Either the 3-shells for ful lpower system needs to be brought back, or cara needs to go back to previous levels
The idea that cara should stay at 50 and be balanced by increasing the tres cost doesn't solve the majority of underlying problems which are
1) It doesn't feel right shooting cara skulks with that much hp
2) It synergises too well with leap / feign death / celerity
3) It is a gross overcompensation for scaling power
4) It allows lazy skulk play
5) It severely messes with shotgun tactics and how teams (especially small sized 6 v 6) approach map control.
6) It is still the number one upgrade chosen by players for all lifeforms (separate from the tres outlay decision)
*edit*
7) It really messes with pistol sniping as its light damage. Full 10 pistol bullets at w0 will not kill a cara skulk.
It also comes with added complication such as
- even more convoluted speed decrease mechanics
- Needing to re-add 3 chamber mechanic to shift and shade trees as well. If it was tied to hives, we simply get more 1 hive, 2 hive, 3 hive determinism
So yes, Cara should simply just go back down to 30. Long overdue.
You're telling me, but I have hope for 217. Skulks should not be bullet sponges.
Great news. My gun won't feel like as much of a peashooter, and coincidentally I'll be able to play Alien again. It's actually my favorite race, but I stopped playing because Aliens had too much of an advantage pre-patch...and even after it still felt like Skulks could absorb way too many hits. Going to enjoy going back to Skulk and trying to play stealthy.
Great news, thanks for listening
did you remove the speed penalty?
This.
so what we have is a reversion to old values wherein skulks have 30 armor with carapace AND slower movement.
bad decision imo.