Remove power nodes
Noky
Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71295Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71295Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
Not only are they HUGELY insufficient and consume way too much time, it takes so much dynamics away from the game that NS1 had. Now you can't do ANYthing without power nodes.
-They die super fast.
-If they die, your whole base can be unpowered
+IPs (lol srsly?)
+Obs (are you kidding?)
-securing an area takes forever because you have to have a power node to do ANYTHING
-No ninja phase gates even if you clear cysts
I just really hate how they immobilize my marine force. It's such a joke. The maps are so huge, if you're marines are doing good and they get any momentum, they can't go too far from base because if a power node gets rushed, that's GG. It disables ALLL the structures. Almost impossible to keep up pressure on the alien team.
-They die super fast.
-If they die, your whole base can be unpowered
+IPs (lol srsly?)
+Obs (are you kidding?)
-securing an area takes forever because you have to have a power node to do ANYTHING
-No ninja phase gates even if you clear cysts
I just really hate how they immobilize my marine force. It's such a joke. The maps are so huge, if you're marines are doing good and they get any momentum, they can't go too far from base because if a power node gets rushed, that's GG. It disables ALLL the structures. Almost impossible to keep up pressure on the alien team.
Comments
Quoting myself:
Power nodes are problematic for several reasons, the main ones imo :
1) Regions that are under the control of power nodes are defined by a box in the map. There is all kind of problems at the boundary of two boxes, because it is unclear which power node is powering the area, if any. This also constrain severely map design, phase gate placement and creativity in general
This is a fundamental problem with power nodes, and cannot be solved without changing completely the way they work.
2) Power nodes accumulate a lot of different function. Light switch, turret factory and "win button" in marine base, etc. These different functions require mutually exclusive balance; for example to work well as a turret factory (being able to disable turrets in a turret spammed area) the power node need to have relatively low hp. But then the "win button" in marine base become problematic.
Worse, some of the functions are bad. A weak point in turret spamed area is desirable but the utility of a win button in marine base is disputable, and power nodes close to RTs are useless at best.
A solution is to split the power node in their different function. Droppable lights by the commander, power packs as turret factory, big red win button in marine base, etc. So they can be balanced separately.
Sure, they might need some balancing here and there as it can sometimes be tedious to have to destroy them, but I actually like the mechanic myself.
that aside, i think powernodes add depth to the game - but they need to do a little bit more with them I think. (welder only repairs was a good step)
e.g.
-motion tracking on powered areas
-powernodes add to a pool of power for upkeep of buildings
-or simply regenration rate of the commanders powerpool
And ninja phasegates still happen thanks to power packs. I love those things.
And no, getting rid of power nodes now would be like getting rid of leap for skulk. It's already an established part of gameplay, it just needs work. Getting rid of them, especially now, would just be a cop out.
Comparing power to leap is utterly nonsensical so I won't even go there.
Power pack phase gates are the preferred ninja option because turning on the power alerts the aliens that you are in the area.
As Yuuki said, obscure power node boundaries that are restrictive in nature only subtract from the game. Power packs are not a solution here. Building a sneaky phase gate is fun, not getting the phase gate up because of a power pack isn't.
Watching new players fumble around with the power mechanics should clue you up enough to see how unintuitive it is, and the light show isn't worth the confusion. Heck, the constant stream of changes related to power nodes should be an even better indicator.
They won't be going anywhere in the vanilla game though, fairly sure that points been made clearly.
Of course you can! Aliens spread infestation, marines push it back - that'd be enough if you want a dynamic territory control mechanism.
For me power nodes continue to be a boring and uninspired feature that only exists for the lighting effects. And those effects could easily be tied to resource towers or something else instead, so not even that is a good reason to keep power nodes in the game.
If you did this, they'd need to be a lot more fragile. Also, I would get rid of emergency lights as well, make the dark meaningful.
I would also consider having turrets powered by nodes, but nothing else.
I have been thinking about it for a while now going from NS1 to NS2. Powernodes seem tedious and only add more steps to the game... on the other hand... this simple change from NS1 to NS2 has changed the gameplay to be more straight-forward and less exploitable.
I think Flayra added the powernodes to keep the game more organized and make it less griefable. I wish we didn't need rules like powernodes and infestation, but at the same time they keep the game flowing towards an ultimate goal... which is something I feel NS1 lacked.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish we didn't need rules like powernodes and infestation, but at the same time they keep the game flowing towards an ultimate goal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kill the evil alien hive and save the day!
As for "Regions that are under the control of power nodes are defined by a box in the map. There is all kind of problems at the boundary of two boxes, because it is unclear which power node is powering the area, if any." I feel that problem could easily be fixed by simply showing which node will power a building when placing it down. Much like power packs show what building will be powered by it when placing it.
Comparing power to leap is utterly nonsensical so I won't even go there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not. I'm not directly comparing them at all. But removing leap, and removing power nodes would both change the gameplay quite a bit in their own respective ways.
You can say "everyone ignores them" with a ton of other structures too, otherwise you'd have people hanging back and defending RTs and phase gates and others a lot more rather then just "pressing e" until they are done and running away. People go and repair the power when it's needed, just like if a phase gate needs repairing people do that. I've seen plenty of games where comms will actively attempt to defend the power nodes with clever structure placement or try to sneak in forward armories and phase gates with power packs into an alien main.
Besides, Power nodes are something the devs set their hearts on from the get-go, and it makes the game much more dynamic. I would rather have them alter the mechanics and attempt to work them in differently then just ditch them and turn the map's lighting into something static, and make it exactly like NS1. And "not being a fan of darkness" is half the point. It provides a huge advantage to aliens, and makes their vision mode very useful. It's not supposed to be something marines like, it's an obstacle. It's designed to make you more uncomfortable.
Here's an alternative. You could make it so infestation directly takes out the power, making the lights dim progressively as it grows closer, instead of having it as an attack point for aliens. It makes the map-control even more of a tug-of-war, and destroying infestation a higher priority. Power packs then become ways to build in an area where the infestation hasn't been cleared enough yet, and makes them better as well.
Also, the starting hive for aliens should start off with a broken powernode. In the current way it is, it makes no sense, since the darkness gives them an advantage, and yet their main base is fully lit and there's nothing they can do about it.
Power nodes are probably one of the best additions to this game, they add an entire layer of strategy and depth to defending/attacking a room, and are one of the high points of NS2
Having to work around the power system is inherently anti-dynamic, the extra layer dissuades creative play and is wholly unessential to the process of building a structure.
The lighting effects don't have to go, they can stay. They're very pretty and all I suppose.
If you want a marine orientated structure or map element devoted to lighting atmospherics, it can exist outside of a power grid.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's an alternative. You could make it so infestation directly takes out the power, making the lights dim progressively as it grows closer, instead of having it as an attack point for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've thought of that and I'd really like to see it in action, I don't think its something that could be added and tested in time for official release though.
The lighting effects don't have to go, they can stay. They're very pretty and all I suppose.
If you want a structure or map element devoted to lighting atmospherics, than it should be that.
I've thought of that and I'd really like to see it in action, I don't think its something that could be added and tested in time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say these words but I really don't think you know what they mean.
I've said everything I have to say, and I already know the system won't be removed in vanilla servers. That's fine too.
Now that marines need welders to repair them there is a much higher incentive for aliens to destroy them, but I still fell they need some more work. I absolutely agree with Yuukis post (not sure about power packs as turret factory thing).
What I would like to see is that if the last rt int the area next to a power-node gets destroyed a overload/overcharge happens and the power-node gets destroyed. So a lot less time is spend on destroying static structures, which is no fun.
To fix Yuukis "win-button" problem: Command Chairs should also work as a power-node, so the power-nodes are no longer a weak spot of a marine-base.
For example, I propose a system whereby power nodes are not required, however if there is no power in an area then
-All rt produces at 1/4 rate
-Using any of the radar abilities or commander drops in the area cost twice as much (the radar abilities cost twice as much if the radar station is in the unpowered area, not the target) and the commander cannot drop nano armor
-All sentry guns will power down
-All infantry portals will take twice as long to spawn
-The armory only restocks ammo, not health
-Nobody can buy any weapons from the armory
-Nobody can buy jetpacks (or exo's when they are released)
-The commander cannot build ARCs, and MACs biuild at half speed
-All buildings build at half speed
-All phase gates in the area stop working
-Lights turn off
Of course, this can be mitigated by building power packs for the structures.
What would this do?
-Marines spend less time trying to get power nodes up because they are useful but not required. They will still build them if they get a chance, but they wont rush t repair them
-Aliens dont always go for the instant win target
-Marines will actually build structures and fight, rather than all crowding around the pwoer node when in a new area
For example, I propose a system whereby power nodes are not required, however if there is no power in an area then
-All rt produces at 1/4 rate
-Using any of the radar abilities or commander drops in the area cost twice as much (the radar abilities cost twice as much if the radar station is in the unpowered area, not the target) and the commander cannot drop nano armor
-All sentry guns will power down
-All infantry portals will take twice as long to spawn
-The armory only restocks ammo, not health
-Nobody can buy any weapons from the armory
-Nobody can buy jetpacks (or exo's when they are released)
-The commander cannot build ARCs, and MACs biuild at half speed
-All buildings build at half speed
-All phase gates in the area stop working
Of course, this can be mitigated by building power packs for the structures.
What would this do?
-Marines spend less time trying to get power nodes up because they are useful but not required. They will still build them if they get a chance, but they wont rush t repair them
-Aliens dont always go for the instant win target
-Marines will actually build structures and fight, rather than all crowding around the pwoer node when in a new area<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you have a good point here! Maybe let's try this in a build? I'll add that the lights will go down too to keep this great mechanic of darkness.
I totally agree with the power node mechanic! This is one of the cores of ns2, NOT NS1. STOP ALWAYS WILLING TO GET NS2 TO NS1! Of course this is dynamic! what about the lights going down? is it static? If you remove the lightingdynamic, what the point to have dynamic infestation, get it static... --" I'm just frustrated to see so many comments to get this game down to ns1...
And stop saying: "nobody use power packs, let's remove power nodes!", POWER PACKS EXIST IF YOU DON'T USE THEM, WELL IT'S YOUR PROBLEM...
I think you have a good point here! Maybe let's try this in a build? I'll add that the lights will go down too to keep this great mechanic of darkness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I assumed the lights turning off would be a given. I added it to my list.
OUR BITES WILL BLOCK OUT THE SUN!
THEN WE WILL FIGHT IN THE SHADE!
Attacking powernodes instead of structures is just gamble, or flat out a bad decision.
If you seriously think its better to attack a powernode instead of buildings directly you are counting on bad gameplay by marines. (especially sleeping commanders)
Powernodes cost 0res, have relative much health(500 armor less than a commandstation - you can destroy 2 ips in the same time, and switch between them in case of nanoshield, thats 6res if he does it on both), and attacking them makes you very vulnerable (attacking structures usually gives you the chance to "dance" around them protecting you from enemy fire.), costs you way more time than it takes them to repair it again(commanders can easily drop welders for marines everywhere, also nanoshield to make aliens waste even more time) => gives marines more freedom to advance towards you (if its not the mainbase powernode).
Ns2 is all about resources, your goal is to get a ######load of them while denying the enemy team to do so as well. (=> attacking a powernode anywhere else on the map then the marine mainbase is a waste of time*... in the time you attack the powernode you could already be somewhere else on the map attacking the next enemy RT, or stopping marines attacking your rts or structures)
Its a distraction for aliens and very often leads to bad decisions. (especially for new players)
*because of points i made before, most of the time its also better to not attack the one in the marine base over other structures.
While it is powerful that powernodes disable all strucutres in the room, if you got enough players to also deny marine repairing powernodes again - you could as well have destroyed their commandstation or ips (with none, or at least a much lower chance of comeback for them)
The dynamic light stuff is nice eyecandy and could still be implemented in some form - like a shade or drifter ability that cost tres to temporary do the light stuff powernodes currently do in the room they are in.
(the iwin button in marine bases only works when they sleep, but you could as well attack any other gameending buildings and win if thats the case, and for outposts or phasegate positions - its always better to just attack the phasegate. (since you can destroy it faster, costs res => when marines lose the structure but aliens are dead - they require res to rebuild it)
But whatever, i dont really care if they stay or not - maybe they will get fleshed out more at some point.