free hydras
Wheeee
Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">yet another topic</div>with the new hydra build times, 4x gorge rush is uncounterable. please bring back at least some marginal (5 pres) cost for hydras. treat them like marine mines. on that note, buff mines, they do nothing to cara skulks now.
Comments
How about make hydras upgradable. Make them a tad weaker than they are now but also allow the gorge to upgrade them to something a bit stronger than they are now.
Yes, they need tweaking. No, being free is not the issue.
Keep giving helpful suggestions based around keeping them free! <b>Your feedback is what changes this game.</b> (If this patch wasn't any indication to you already..)
The solution is to make them cost pres again, and like Wheeee said it doesn't need to be 10 pres, 5 or even 4 would already be good.
Don't
This is a resource model based game..
So free anything, even air, does not fit. the end, thank you, good bye, etc etc etc.
Another one, its impossible to balance for both teams without making them entirely useless.
In reply to above post.
10 res hydras was the middle ground
5 res is way too cheap
15-20 is the 'extreme' land.
Where you would have 5 res hydras being useless, 10 being ok, and 15-20 being extremely useful.
Yes, they need tweaking. No, being free is not the issue.
Keep giving helpful suggestions based around keeping them free! <b>Your feedback is what changes this game.</b> (If this patch wasn't any indication to you already..)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If them being free is not the problem, why have we still not seen a proper fix that keeps them free AND solves the problem of their recyclability/spammability?
While attaching a cost to them would not be the only way to fix the current issues, it's by far the easiest and most straight forward one. I somehow find it hard to believe UWE will properly address this before release day, and keeping them in their current state is kind of unacceptable tbh.
and they arent free. u need 10 resource to gorge.
in Early game, this are 10 res father away from fade or onos. which is quite an noticeable amount.
And as soon as Gl´s are out. hydras are just useless, and not only hydras.
gorges are useless then, cant even heal an onos rushing the base because one Grenade launcher will
easily kill the little gorgi.
Don't
This is a resource model based game..
So free anything, even air, does not fit. the end, thank you, good bye, etc etc etc.
Another one, its impossible to balance for both teams without making them entirely useless.
In reply to above post.
10 res hydras was the middle ground
5 res is way too cheap
15-20 is the 'extreme' land.
Where you would have 5 res hydras being useless, 10 being ok, and 15-20 being extremely useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. +1
and they arent free. u need 10 resource to gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are saying that when you pay 10 pres for a gorge a part of these 10 pres is used to pay the hydras, and therefore they are not free.
In this perspective, we need to compared two solutions:
1) The cost of hydras is included into the gorge cost or
2) the cost of hydras is not included into the gorge cost, but you need to pay pres for each hydra (for example gorge cost 7 pres and each hydra cost one pres).
In comparison, solution 1) is poor. It forces you to buy three hydras and to build them (“you have to drop your 3 hydras since you already payed for themâ€) and effectively introduce a tying sale mechanism (“can’t buy a gorge without the hydrasâ€). It reduces the number of possible choices, reducing strategic depth, for example you can't go gorge to heal a hive and then take the decision to buy hydras because you were forced to buy them.
While attaching a cost to them would not be the only way to fix the current issues, it's by far the easiest and most straight forward one. I somehow find it hard to believe UWE will properly address this before release day, and keeping them in their current state is kind of unacceptable tbh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple, really, because no one has given feedback on it.
Charlie said it still needed adjustments way back when it was first made like this..and it did and still does. But nothing has been changed because no one speaks up or gives feedback on the issue unless its the occasional "revert it". And let me remind you how many things in this game people said the same thing but we found ways to make it work.. cysts being the biggest example.
Hence, me asking for proper feedback. But if your only feedback is "revert it".. thanks, taken into account, but you're not even trying if thats the case :-/
<b>This topic has been beaten to death. We REALLY dont need another one if there aren't any useful feedback coming from it.</b>
This is a resource game - but fade swipe and skulk bite dont cost pres, so neither do hydras. I know you dislike this answer and you want to call them defensive buildings.. but were all just gonna have to move on from this point with the understanding that they are usable weapons as the <b>gorge steps away from the old commander role of ns1.</b>
<i>So, with that being said, can this thread be helpful in any form? I'd really love it to..
</i>Here i'll start:
My idea: Have hydras scale. Start with one. After X factor, be it time, or amount of healing etc, you earn another. I'm okay with the concept of incremental hydras that costing pres brought, just not the costing pres part.
Not sure how hydras can be compared to bite/swipe, they are defensive structures... They are quite similar in function to mines in that regard, which do cost pres... The reason the argument is always to make them have a cost and persist is because no one generally wants to play a gorge all game, its generally a boring role.
+ 1 Free hydra's need to go. Thanks
- As a comm should you should drop mepacks to marines fighting hydras, knowing that they can be redropped for no cost later ?
- As a marine should you ignore/avoid the hydras as much as possible ?
+1
What do you mean? No one has given feedback on the topic of free hydras? Because that is simply not true. There were several threads about it with no dev feedback or any resulting changes.
I think the majority (90+%) are not for free hydras and that the proponents can be counted on one hand. Just make a poll like with minimap.
And the reasons for why it's free I've heard so far are:
- Boring for (new) players to wait for res before building the next hydra. Sounds like catering to console-itis sufferers.
- NS2 should be a game where players play against players and not against AI.
- (kinda hidden agenda behind the previous two) Performance is slowed down when players spam hydras in long games.
- Engineer in TF2 works so well, which undoubtedly implies it works perfectly in the resource based NS2, afterall both have "2":s in them, my logic is infallable! ...or something in those lines, no, seriously I have no idea about the reasoning behind this one.
#1 Let's not wait for ANYTHING in a <u>resource game</u>! Set resources to 1000 for all players/teams and lets see which team runs out first and is unable to fight more. (which I admit can be a valid game-mode)
#2 Strategy games have always had defensive buildings. Besides, who said destroying the other teams buildings (removing the alien infestation) isn't fun gameplay??? Personally, I find slowly fighting through "infestation" and retaking territory with ARCs/GLs, playing as a team, a big and satisfying part of NS!
#3 In those long games the com spams buildings (cysts, whips, shades, crags, shifts, upg structures and their "backups") anyways! Better make the game and server able to handle a game properly to begin with, the GldSrc from 1998 does it perfectly fine for NS1!
<!--quoteo(post=1954325:date=Jul 27 2012, 04:24 PM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jul 27 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1954305:date=Jul 27 2012, 03:14 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 27 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simple, really, because no one has given feedback on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you mean? No one has given feedback on the topic of free hydras? Because that is simply not true. There were several threads about it with no dev feedback or any resulting changes.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOOTLULZROFLMAO
Like I said, the only feedback since Charlie said they were here to stay in that Q n A video has been to revert it.
I have seen zero feedback on any adjustments or changes within keeping this design.
I'm not trying to be inflammatory I just would hope that the community would be more helpful and cooperative in this area, I don't see any attempt here, just the same ol revert it suggestion that comes from a lack of a solution or idea that of course is to be expected when a major change like that occurs. Shrug.
Case in point: I'm still the only one who provided a single example or idea in this thread thus far, and I merely gave it half a second's worth of thought.. And the post above mine just highlights this more...
I have seen zero feedback on any adjustments or changes within keeping this design.
I'm not trying to be inflammatory I just would hope that the community would be more helpful and cooperative in this area, I don't see any attempt here, just the same ol revert it suggestion that comes from a lack of a solution or idea that of course is to be expected when a major change like that occurs. Shrug.
Case in point: I'm still the only one who provided a single example or idea in this thread thus far, and I merely gave it half a second's worth of thought.. And the post above mine just highlights this more...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are a couple threads w/ ideas that don't involve removing free hydras.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119451" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=119451</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119112" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=119112</a>
There are more ideas but their scattered about in many odds threads. Maybe we need one "Official" thread dedicated to this idea?
I guess I should visit the I & S threads more..
Edit: I agree. Ask crypt again to consolidate said ideas? The nano spam thread worked perfectly and everyone's idea was presented to Charlie to read and consider.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118422" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=118422</a>
Only thing I'd change: make gorges start with two hydras since they are permanent. Otherwise you end up with everyone going gorge, dropping three hydras each, then going back to skulk etc. ( that's potentially 45 hydras on a starting map for those keeping track..)
Maybe even starting with only one, and then scaling it with some other factor still if they are gonna be permanent.. So it's 15 hydras max , not a very rewarding tactic. Is time really a bad idea to scale with? I know it not too creative but... Maybe it can be researched by the alien comm?
You're just begging the question, if you put yourself in the position of someone who think that hydra costing pres is a good thing, you'll see from this perspective that proposing to make hydra costing pres is a constructive and helpful suggestion, and that defending free hydra is actually being not cooperative.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Begging the question (Latin petitio principii, "assuming the initial point") is a type of logical fallacy in which a proposition relies on an implicit premise within itself to establish the truth of that same proposition. In other words, it is a statement that refers to its own assertion to prove the assertion. Such arguments are essentially of the form "a is true because a is true" though rarely is such an argument stated as such. Often the premise 'a' is only one of many premises that go into proving that 'a' is true as a conclusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question</a>
*
Otherwise I'm sure free hydras could work if their were transformed into real abilities (meaning needing the constant player interaction to work) instead of AI structures, but it seems rather useless to propose anything more than simple number tweaks that late into the beta. Edit: well they could copy/paste Biscum mod.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119292&st=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...119292&st=0</a> (about the gorge in general)
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118848&st=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...118848&st=0</a> (about free hydras)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ask crypt again to consolidate said ideas?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, I'm not the playtesters pawn :p
Thing is, I'll gladly help, but I feel it's a complex issue. It's not just the hydras, it's the gorge as a whole who seems to be lacking atm. I can try to write something up, but maybe not just compiling ideas, but also outlining current problems. Community seems really divided about the free or not idea.
I don't see clogs being free as an issue though honestly.
Regardless it just shows the issue that I had brought up some time ago regarding feedback in general in this format, and why its a waste of time.
And that stupid pug lags my computer, plz leave dog.