The res system is the issue IMO. Can't get weapons to kill aliens and stuff. Also with free hydra's now it's way to easy fro aliens to lock down res point or paths to res. If RFK was in it would scale the res. People would not play rambo. Yes new players that are not that good wont get good guns and tech. But that will happen anyways. They will get a shotty and get killed with lack of knowing the game fully. But if we keep trying to make the game fully "noob" friendly (ie, free hydra's, nano anything , etc.) The better people are still gonna rape face , troll the "noobs" more with easy mode skills. And the game will still be frustrating. So over all that means nothing will be fixed. Plus it will get dual quick and have a short life span... But ye that's my rant. You can dumb teh game down as much as you want making it friendly for new players. But higher skilled players will always frustrate new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1952869:date=Jul 20 2012, 04:23 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 20 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Early game needs to be much more difficult for the aliens and should require a lot more teamwork</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Call me old fashioned but I always thought when drifters were required to build alien structures (like drones in SC) it felt much more paced. Now you can instantly drop 2nd hive at game start which to me seems kinda silly.
But I think alien expo rate and nano construct are 2 different problems- saying nanoconstruct balances out alien expo rates is like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it..
<!--quoteo(post=1952876:date=Jul 20 2012, 08:48 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 20 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Call me old fashioned but I always thought when drifters were required to build alien structures (like drones in SC) it felt much more paced. Now you can instantly drop 2nd hive at game start which to me seems kinda silly.
But I think alien expo rate and nano construct are 2 different problems- saying nanoconstruct balances out alien expo rates is like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I liked when drifter had to be used to build stuff also. The last time i checked you planted a seed to grow stuff. Plus it added to the game for denieing RT's and hive drops
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
As usual, Blizzard has the answer. In order to increase the macro required by players in StarCraft 2, they gave each race a unique, but comparably powerful, "macro ability" (my term). Terran got MULE, Protoss got chrono boost and Zerg got inject larva. A similar concept can be applied to NS2, which will also fix the problems connected with nanocon discussed in this thread.
In order to adapt them to fps/rts; some ground rules: 1. Can not directly influence combat, only the rts portion of the game. Can not be used on players. 2. Must be limited in effect to avoid too much influence on gameplay. They shouldn't have much of an impact on each use, but instead have an impact when used often and correctly. 3. Is an ability on each comm station and hive. If you have two hives, for example, you can use the ability twice at the same time (once from each hive). 4. Cooldown based. There shouldn't be a cost; the idea is to award comms with good macro. The cooldown should be short to promote frequent use and require effort from the comm to use perfectly (if you don't pay attention (poor macro) you don't get the bonus as much as somebody who does). 5. Alien and marine abilities should be different to preserve asymmetry, but also equally powerful (if both alien and marine comms have perfect macro, they should get an equally powerful bonus from using the ability). 6. Perfect use of the ability should be the baseline for gameplay. For example, if the ability speeds up construction of buildings, the default construction speed has to be slower than it currently is. This avoids the issues created by the current nanocon when used on pgs, for example. 7. In order to make things more interesting, the ability should have a few different uses and effects (all equally powerful when used correctly). For example; the ability could increase maturation time when used on a constructing harvester or speed up res collecting speed when used on an already mature harvester -- balancing it would mean making the res coll boost slightly faster than the inherent res coll boost from faster maturation, because faster maturation also has the benefit of making it less vulnerable to attacks. 8. The ability has a short duration of effect. Between five and ten seconds, rough guess.
Ability suggestions:
Marines get "nanite boost". Effects when used on: (1) building under construction: faster build speed. (2) fully constructed building: armor boost (weak nanoshield). (3) building that is researching an upgrade: faster research speed. (4) infantry portal: faster spawning.
Aliens get "bacterial injection". Effects when used on: (1) hive under maturation: faster maturation. (2) fully mature harvester: faster resource collection. (3) fully matured hive: faster egg spawning. (4) evolving alien player: faster gestation time.
Typed up quickly on my mobile. Please ignore typos. All of this obviously needs refining for actual use in the game. Goes without saying that current abilities like nanoshield/con would have to be removed.
<!--quoteo(post=1952878:date=Jul 20 2012, 07:56 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 20 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As usual, Blizzard has the answer. In order to increase the macro required by players in StarCraft 2, they gave each race a unique, but comparably powerful, "macro ability" (my term). Terran got MULE, Protoss got chrono boost and Zerg got inject larva. A similar concept can be applied to NS2, which will also fix the problems connected with nanocon discussed in this thread.
In order to adapt them to fps/rts; some ground rules: 1. Can not directly influence combat, only the rts portion of the game. Can not be used on players. 2. Must be limited in effect to avoid too much influence on gameplay. They shouldn't have much of an impact on each use, but instead have an impact when used often and correctly. 3. Is an ability on each comm station and hive. If you have two hives, for example, you can use the ability twice at the same time (once from each hive). 4. Cooldown based. There shouldn't be a cost; the idea is to award comms with good macro. The cooldown should be short to promote frequent use and require effort from the comm to use perfectly (if you don't pay attention (poor macro) you don't get the bonus as much as somebody who does). 5. Alien and marine abilities should be different to preserve asymmetry, but also equally powerful (if both alien and marine comms have perfect macro, they should get an equally powerful bonus from using the ability). 6. Perfect use of the ability should be the baseline for gameplay. For example, if the ability speeds up construction of buildings, the default construction speed has to be slower than it currently is. This avoids the issues created by the current nanocon when used on pgs, for example. 7. In order to make things more interesting, the ability should have a few different uses and effects (all equally powerful when used correctly). For example; the ability could increase maturation time when used on a constructing harvester or speed up res collecting speed when used on an already mature harvester -- balancing it would mean making the res coll boost slightly faster than the inherent res coll boost from faster maturation, because faster maturation also has the benefit of making it less vulnerable to attacks. 8. The ability has a short duration of effect. Between five and ten seconds, rough guess.
Ability suggestions:
Marines get "nanite boost". Effects when used on: (1) building under construction: faster build speed. (2) fully constructed building: armor boost (weak nanoshield). (3) building that is researching an upgrade: faster research speed. (4) infantry portal: faster spawning.
Aliens get "bacterial injection". Effects when used on: (1) hive under maturation: faster maturation. (2) fully mature harvester: faster resource collection. (3) fully matured hive: faster egg spawning. (4) evolving alien player: faster gestation time.
Typed up quickly on my mobile. Please ignore typos. All of this obviously needs refining for actual use in the game. Goes without saying that current abilities like nanoshield/con would have to be removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting ideas, certainly would give the commanders more things to do and increase the size of the skill curve. Your ideas for aliens, seems that's basically what misting does, except to just put it on a cooldown and remove the cost for mist.
One difficulty I see though is if you give it too many conditional functions you can get yourself into a state where the game uses the 'wrong' one. Say your armory is researching and it gets attacked. So you drop 'nanite boost' on it. Well, now its speeding the research, but you actually wanted the armor boost! So I'd suggest your lists of functions for the abilities never present a situation where a given structure at a given time could benefit from the ability in more than one way (IE remove the armor boost, that's the only one that presents overlap at the moment).
Short lists are also better. If you have a large number of things that it can do, inevitably one of them is going to be found to be 'the best' and the others get no use. Easier to balance with a shorter list.
I'd also suggest not being able to directly affect resource collection, I think that's a line that shouldn't be crossed.
<!--quoteo(post=1952878:date=Jul 21 2012, 01:56 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 21 2012, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As usual, Blizzard has the answer. In order to increase the macro required by players in StarCraft 2, they gave each race a unique, but comparably powerful, "macro ability" (my term). Terran got MULE, Protoss got chrono boost and Zerg got inject larva. A similar concept can be applied to NS2, which will also fix the problems connected with nanocon discussed in this thread.
In order to adapt them to fps/rts; some ground rules: 1. Can not directly influence combat, only the rts portion of the game. Can not be used on players. 2. Must be limited in effect to avoid too much influence on gameplay. They shouldn't have much of an impact on each use, but instead have an impact when used often and correctly. 3. Is an ability on each comm station and hive. If you have two hives, for example, you can use the ability twice at the same time (once from each hive). 4. Cooldown based. There shouldn't be a cost; the idea is to award comms with good macro. The cooldown should be short to promote frequent use and require effort from the comm to use perfectly (if you don't pay attention (poor macro) you don't get the bonus as much as somebody who does). 5. Alien and marine abilities should be different to preserve asymmetry, but also equally powerful (if both alien and marine comms have perfect macro, they should get an equally powerful bonus from using the ability). 6. Perfect use of the ability should be the baseline for gameplay. For example, if the ability speeds up construction of buildings, the default construction speed has to be slower than it currently is. This avoids the issues created by the current nanocon when used on pgs, for example. 7. In order to make things more interesting, the ability should have a few different uses and effects (all equally powerful when used correctly). For example; the ability could increase maturation time when used on a constructing harvester or speed up res collecting speed when used on an already mature harvester -- balancing it would mean making the res coll boost slightly faster than the inherent res coll boost from faster maturation, because faster maturation also has the benefit of making it less vulnerable to attacks. 8. The ability has a short duration of effect. Between five and ten seconds, rough guess.
Ability suggestions:
Marines get "nanite boost". Effects when used on: (1) building under construction: faster build speed. (2) fully constructed building: armor boost (weak nanoshield). (3) building that is researching an upgrade: faster research speed. (4) infantry portal: faster spawning.
Aliens get "bacterial injection". Effects when used on: (1) hive under maturation: faster maturation. (2) fully mature harvester: faster resource collection. (3) fully matured hive: faster egg spawning. (4) evolving alien player: faster gestation time.
Typed up quickly on my mobile. Please ignore typos. All of this obviously needs refining for actual use in the game. Goes without saying that current abilities like nanoshield/con would have to be removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm hesitant about anything that makes commanding more difficult than it was in NS1 and/or increases the team's dependency on the comm doing everything right. It's critically important to the health of the game that a lot of people be able to command fairly well, and that a reasonable skill imbalance between the two commanders not cause too overwhelming an advantage for one team. Ultimately when a choice comes down to the commander's fun versus everybody else's fun, that's a no brainer decision IMO. Not saying fana's idea is necessarily too much but it's something that really needs to be carefully considered with all of these types of abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1952746:date=Jul 20 2012, 10:22 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 20 2012, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In theory you are correct but alien buildings build so slow that you need a gorge to speed the building time up if you don't do this you will fall behind the marines in resources very fast. Depending on the size of the teams i see nearly in every game 2 early game gorges. Most times one directly evolves into gorge when the round starts, another one when he died once against marines.
I'm all for it to nerf nano construct a lot. Maybe there has to be a minimum build time for buildings, so that no matter how many marines are helping to set up a building it always takes 3-5sec. A phasegate going up in 1 sec is just silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien building time is slow, but doesn't require player assistance outside of a commander is his point. Regardless of how slow alien build time is, you still have a pressure advantage during the early phase of the game. This means marines tend to be on the defensive while the alien structures go up without harassment.
Also, with the current iteration of gorge, even if they were required to build those RT's, they can easily hold off 2-3 marines by themselves.
As far as nano constructing phase gates goes, yes it's pretty ridiculous. One sneaky marine can get his whole team within striking distance of a hive in seconds, for which the only real alien counter is to cyst every square inch of your territory / spam whips everywhere.
That said, I like nano for RT's and quick marine expansion because I feel like they really need it to counter alien map spread, but after a certain point (mid to late game) it becomes overwhelming for aliens how quick marines set up forward locations right next to critical locations. (Realistically, quicker than the alien team could possibly respond)
<!--quoteo(post=1952908:date=Jul 21 2012, 12:32 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 21 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm hesitant about anything that makes commanding more difficult than it was in NS1 and/or increases the team's dependency on the comm doing everything right. It's critically important to the health of the game that a lot of people be able to command fairly well, and that a reasonable skill imbalance between the two commanders not cause too overwhelming an advantage for one team. Ultimately when a choice comes down to the commander's fun versus everybody else's fun, that's a no brainer decision IMO. Not saying fana's idea is necessarily too much but it's something that really needs to be carefully considered with all of these types of abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, in PUB games there often aren't true RTS players. I myself enjoy (and can win at) Khamming, but I know I would never win versus a hardcore fan of the game style. Fanatic's idea worries me that it would favor clan/tournament games and leave pub games wanting due to drastic skill differences. That said, I do enjoy having more difference in a game due to skill.
Marines get "nanite boost". Effects when used on: (1) building under construction: faster build speed. (2) fully constructed building: armor boost (weak nanoshield). (3) building that is researching an upgrade: faster research speed. (4) infantry portal: faster spawning.
Aliens get "bacterial injection". Effects when used on: (1) hive under maturation: faster maturation. (2) fully mature harvester: faster resource collection. (3) fully matured hive: faster egg spawning. (4) evolving alien player: faster gestation time.
Typed up quickly on my mobile. Please ignore typos. All of this obviously needs refining for actual use in the game. Goes without saying that current abilities like nanoshield/con would have to be removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like, but I'd rather see it used on each structure, rather than an overall buff on all structures. For example, activating it on a harvester/extractor should increase res collection rate or on a hive would speed egg spawning. Though I do like the idea of the number of times it can be activated tied to the number of tech nodes captured (i.e. 2 hives = 2 times activated before cooldown).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1952967:date=Jul 21 2012, 07:52 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 21 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->used on each structure<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was the idea, why did you think I meant otherwise?
To the people worried about its potential detrimental effect on fps gameplay; please read the ground rules again and you will ser that this has already been taken into account. If properly implemented, this would have a much smaller impact on gameplay than the current nanocon and shield.
For example: suppose if neither comm uses the ability to boost res collection rate, then marines would get weapon2 upgrade at the same time aliens get hive2. However, if the alien comm uses the ability perfectly to only boost res collection, while the marine comm doesn't use it at all, then the aliens would get hive2 one minute earlier than marines get weapon2. Hardly a game decider, but a reasonable advantage as a reward for skilled commanding.
Bear in mind that the numbers I used are solely to illustrate the concept. The abilities I suggested in the original post were also for that purpose.
Having the abilities give different effects depending on structure status might be confusing. That is a legitimate concern. Fortunately, it's easy to fix.
+1. Would love to see how this plays. One thing NS2 commanding suffers from is a lack of apm i think. You can perform good commanding with like 10 eapm or something really low for marines, and its much much lower for alien. Average sc2 eapm is like 60-100.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1952980:date=Jul 21 2012, 01:36 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 21 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was the idea, why did you think I meant otherwise?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Totally misread then, my mistake. Looks great though and would definitely add value to commanding.
<!--quoteo(post=1952668:date=Jul 19 2012, 05:14 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 19 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So today I was in a mineshaft game, Rines had somehow gotten cave (they had JPs at this point, ~20min+ into the game) and they had the usual, CC/armory/PG up. We probably spent about 5-10 minutes wearing them/the pg down and we finally kill the phase gate ! only 2 JPs left and cave is ours right!? NOPE. 1 of the JPs nanoconstucted a new phase gate up before we could even get across the room to him and we were back to square one. (this is just one of many many many examples)
Seriously will this ever get changed? There's no way a 400% building speed bonus can be considered balanced at any point in the game. It still gets spammed on cooldown. Marines still use it to build every single building.
The build bonus needs to change to 50-100% at most, 400% is hilariously imbalanced. 3 t-res cost and a 6 sec cooldown is hilariously trivial. The current build times for the structures in NS2 are not balanced around nano construct. No, giving it a longer cooldown will not solve the problem. No, making it cost more will not solve the problem (though I guess it might help a little).
(figured I would make a nano-construct thread to go with the nano-shield thread- both abilities are hugely problematic UWE!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't even played yet, but doesn't this seem like the kind of thing that should only apply to non-critical buildings?
Honestly, I don't think the RTS side of the game needs to be expanded much more. This game isn't supposed to be as in depth as something like starcraft 2 since it's not soley an RTS.
We already have enough problems getting people to even jump in the command chair, and even on "competitive" teams there is a shortage of willing commanders. Let's not make it more complicated than it is. People like me and other RTS players wouldn't mind it as I see myself getting bored playing as the commander role now, but for the overall good of the game it needs to stay simple and intuitive.
No need for adding a bunch more nonsense to make the game even more complicated and give the devs even more crap to balance. Not worth the time at all.
Instead, we should all be focusing on the real issues with the game, which in my opinion is the cost, strengths of the alien upgrades and expansion. We have all seen games where marines have killed 5-10 hives in one game only to get pushed back into their base and lose. It's a commonly seen place in NS2. Sure, the aliens have the res to keep dropping hives (Isn't that the whole damn problem?).
The aliens don't have enough res sinks. You can literally get away with having 0 upgrades with aliens for quite a long time, and once you finally get your first set you will be stupidly overpowered compared to the marines (In an average game). It's all well and fine to make the alien upgrades powerful but perhaps make things cost more so they can't get them as fast.
The marines seem to never have enough time to tech up accordingly to the aliens, due to early game pressure caused by:
1. Plethora of res 2. Psycho fast expansion rate 3. Aliens having more able bodied fighters
<!--quoteo(post=1952981:date=Jul 21 2012, 09:42 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 21 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1. Would love to see how this plays. One thing NS2 commanding suffers from is a lack of apm i think. You can perform good commanding with like 10 eapm or something really low for marines, and its much much lower for alien. Average sc2 eapm is like 60-100.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't APM fairly meaningless for an RTS where the units are autonomous?
I like fana's idea, just so long as the modifier is something more tame than 400%.
<!--quoteo(post=1952878:date=Jul 20 2012, 06:56 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 20 2012, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As usual, Blizzard has the answer. In order to increase the macro required by players in StarCraft 2, they gave each race a unique, but comparably powerful, "macro ability" (my term). Terran got MULE, Protoss got chrono boost and Zerg got inject larva. A similar concept can be applied to NS2, which will also fix the problems connected with nanocon discussed in this thread.
In order to adapt them to fps/rts; some ground rules: 1. Can not directly influence combat, only the rts portion of the game. Can not be used on players. 2. Must be limited in effect to avoid too much influence on gameplay. They shouldn't have much of an impact on each use, but instead have an impact when used often and correctly. 3. Is an ability on each comm station and hive. If you have two hives, for example, you can use the ability twice at the same time (once from each hive). 4. Cooldown based. There shouldn't be a cost; the idea is to award comms with good macro. The cooldown should be short to promote frequent use and require effort from the comm to use perfectly (if you don't pay attention (poor macro) you don't get the bonus as much as somebody who does). 5. Alien and marine abilities should be different to preserve asymmetry, but also equally powerful (if both alien and marine comms have perfect macro, they should get an equally powerful bonus from using the ability). 6. Perfect use of the ability should be the baseline for gameplay. For example, if the ability speeds up construction of buildings, the default construction speed has to be slower than it currently is. This avoids the issues created by the current nanocon when used on pgs, for example. 7. In order to make things more interesting, the ability should have a few different uses and effects (all equally powerful when used correctly). For example; the ability could increase maturation time when used on a constructing harvester or speed up res collecting speed when used on an already mature harvester -- balancing it would mean making the res coll boost slightly faster than the inherent res coll boost from faster maturation, because faster maturation also has the benefit of making it less vulnerable to attacks. 8. The ability has a short duration of effect. Between five and ten seconds, rough guess.
Ability suggestions:
Marines get "nanite boost". Effects when used on: (1) building under construction: faster build speed. (2) fully constructed building: armor boost (weak nanoshield). (3) building that is researching an upgrade: faster research speed. (4) infantry portal: faster spawning.
Aliens get "bacterial injection". Effects when used on: (1) hive under maturation: faster maturation. (2) fully mature harvester: faster resource collection. (3) fully matured hive: faster egg spawning. (4) evolving alien player: faster gestation time.
Typed up quickly on my mobile. Please ignore typos. All of this obviously needs refining for actual use in the game. Goes without saying that current abilities like nanoshield/con would have to be removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea, but it does alot of what mist already is doing.
Also having no cost, only cooldown, makes it an ability that the commander MUST spam or the team is at a disadvantage. For the sake of new comms, and my sanity, this must not be the case. Add depth in other ways.
<!--quoteo(post=1952993:date=Jul 21 2012, 05:58 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 21 2012, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Plethora of res 2. Psycho fast expansion rate 3. Aliens having more able bodied fighters<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a big problem that needs to be addressed. On maps like docking, as alien commander I will take easily 6 harvesters early game. I have nothing to save for at this point except second hive. Alien teammates need to help to keep the harvesters safe, but as long as I am not too liberal it is relatively easy since everyone is fighting.
Marines will struggle to hold 4. They must quickly deploy phase tech, armour 1, weapons 1, mines, shotguns, setup structures, etc despite hardly any resources. While building anything, marines will be attacked themselves or previously built RTs will come under attack.
Marines don't end up with alot of res until mid-game, where the tech takes a long time to research. Early game they are seriously starved. Aliens are the opposite, they have plenty of res early game and only start starving when mid-game abilities and structure spam occurs.
Maybe this is a non-issue, just part of the asymmetry. Its something I find jarring when I play both commanders though, and makes marine commander extremely challenging early game.
<!--quoteo(post=1953404:date=Jul 24 2012, 03:03 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 24 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a big problem that needs to be addressed. On maps like docking, as alien commander I will take easily 6 harvesters early game. I have nothing to save for at this point except second hive. Alien teammates need to help to keep the harvesters safe, but as long as I am not too liberal it is relatively easy since everyone is fighting.
Marines will struggle to hold 4. They must quickly deploy phase tech, armour 1, weapons 1, mines, shotguns, setup structures, etc despite hardly any resources. While building anything, marines will be attacked themselves or previously built RTs will come under attack.
Marines don't end up with alot of res until mid-game, where the tech takes a long time to research. Early game they are seriously starved. Aliens are the opposite, they have plenty of res early game and only start starving when mid-game abilities and structure spam occurs.
Maybe this is a non-issue, just part of the asymmetry. Its something I find jarring when I play both commanders though, and makes marine commander extremely challenging early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mostly a map problem imo. Same with mineshaft, you can easily get lots of rts in the northern side of the map as aliens and then hold 2 chokepoints making it very hard to pressure them. Marine close rts are hard to defend and have lots of places for aliens to hide/camp them.
Both of these maps imo need quite major redesign still.
<!--quoteo(post=1953407:date=Jul 24 2012, 07:37 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 24 2012, 07:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mostly a map problem imo. Same with mineshaft, you can easily get lots of rts in the northern side of the map as aliens and then hold 2 chokepoints making it very hard to pressure them. Marine close rts are hard to defend and have lots of places for aliens to hide/camp them.
Both of these maps imo need quite major redesign still.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that map has major problems. Marine res base only has 3 nearby res towers, so they must fight over double to win. Aliens can easily hold off the marines in refinery and the chokepoint on the opposite side, sealing off the map.
<!--quoteo(post=1953460:date=Jul 24 2012, 07:21 PM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Jul 24 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Niceee. While you're still in the mood, remove nano shield and spikes too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have to agree, sorry UWE.
Comments
Call me old fashioned but I always thought when drifters were required to build alien structures (like drones in SC) it felt much more paced. Now you can instantly drop 2nd hive at game start which to me seems kinda silly.
But I think alien expo rate and nano construct are 2 different problems- saying nanoconstruct balances out alien expo rates is like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it..
But I think alien expo rate and nano construct are 2 different problems- saying nanoconstruct balances out alien expo rates is like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I liked when drifter had to be used to build stuff also. The last time i checked you planted a seed to grow stuff. Plus it added to the game for denieing RT's and hive drops
In order to adapt them to fps/rts; some ground rules:
1. Can not directly influence combat, only the rts portion of the game. Can not be used on players.
2. Must be limited in effect to avoid too much influence on gameplay. They shouldn't have much of an impact on each use, but instead have an impact when used often and correctly.
3. Is an ability on each comm station and hive. If you have two hives, for example, you can use the ability twice at the same time (once from each hive).
4. Cooldown based. There shouldn't be a cost; the idea is to award comms with good macro. The cooldown should be short to promote frequent use and require effort from the comm to use perfectly (if you don't pay attention (poor macro) you don't get the bonus as much as somebody who does).
5. Alien and marine abilities should be different to preserve asymmetry, but also equally powerful (if both alien and marine comms have perfect macro, they should get an equally powerful bonus from using the ability).
6. Perfect use of the ability should be the baseline for gameplay. For example, if the ability speeds up construction of buildings, the default construction speed has to be slower than it currently is. This avoids the issues created by the current nanocon when used on pgs, for example.
7. In order to make things more interesting, the ability should have a few different uses and effects (all equally powerful when used correctly). For example; the ability could increase maturation time when used on a constructing harvester or speed up res collecting speed when used on an already mature harvester -- balancing it would mean making the res coll boost slightly faster than the inherent res coll boost from faster maturation, because faster maturation also has the benefit of making it less vulnerable to attacks.
8. The ability has a short duration of effect. Between five and ten seconds, rough guess.
Ability suggestions:
Marines get "nanite boost". Effects when used on:
(1) building under construction: faster build speed.
(2) fully constructed building: armor boost (weak nanoshield).
(3) building that is researching an upgrade: faster research speed.
(4) infantry portal: faster spawning.
Aliens get "bacterial injection". Effects when used on:
(1) hive under maturation: faster maturation.
(2) fully mature harvester: faster resource collection.
(3) fully matured hive: faster egg spawning.
(4) evolving alien player: faster gestation time.
Typed up quickly on my mobile. Please ignore typos. All of this obviously needs refining for actual use in the game. Goes without saying that current abilities like nanoshield/con would have to be removed.
+1
In order to adapt them to fps/rts; some ground rules:
1. Can not directly influence combat, only the rts portion of the game. Can not be used on players.
2. Must be limited in effect to avoid too much influence on gameplay. They shouldn't have much of an impact on each use, but instead have an impact when used often and correctly.
3. Is an ability on each comm station and hive. If you have two hives, for example, you can use the ability twice at the same time (once from each hive).
4. Cooldown based. There shouldn't be a cost; the idea is to award comms with good macro. The cooldown should be short to promote frequent use and require effort from the comm to use perfectly (if you don't pay attention (poor macro) you don't get the bonus as much as somebody who does).
5. Alien and marine abilities should be different to preserve asymmetry, but also equally powerful (if both alien and marine comms have perfect macro, they should get an equally powerful bonus from using the ability).
6. Perfect use of the ability should be the baseline for gameplay. For example, if the ability speeds up construction of buildings, the default construction speed has to be slower than it currently is. This avoids the issues created by the current nanocon when used on pgs, for example.
7. In order to make things more interesting, the ability should have a few different uses and effects (all equally powerful when used correctly). For example; the ability could increase maturation time when used on a constructing harvester or speed up res collecting speed when used on an already mature harvester -- balancing it would mean making the res coll boost slightly faster than the inherent res coll boost from faster maturation, because faster maturation also has the benefit of making it less vulnerable to attacks.
8. The ability has a short duration of effect. Between five and ten seconds, rough guess.
Ability suggestions:
Marines get "nanite boost". Effects when used on:
(1) building under construction: faster build speed.
(2) fully constructed building: armor boost (weak nanoshield).
(3) building that is researching an upgrade: faster research speed.
(4) infantry portal: faster spawning.
Aliens get "bacterial injection". Effects when used on:
(1) hive under maturation: faster maturation.
(2) fully mature harvester: faster resource collection.
(3) fully matured hive: faster egg spawning.
(4) evolving alien player: faster gestation time.
Typed up quickly on my mobile. Please ignore typos. All of this obviously needs refining for actual use in the game. Goes without saying that current abilities like nanoshield/con would have to be removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting ideas, certainly would give the commanders more things to do and increase the size of the skill curve. Your ideas for aliens, seems that's basically what misting does, except to just put it on a cooldown and remove the cost for mist.
One difficulty I see though is if you give it too many conditional functions you can get yourself into a state where the game uses the 'wrong' one. Say your armory is researching and it gets attacked. So you drop 'nanite boost' on it. Well, now its speeding the research, but you actually wanted the armor boost! So I'd suggest your lists of functions for the abilities never present a situation where a given structure at a given time could benefit from the ability in more than one way (IE remove the armor boost, that's the only one that presents overlap at the moment).
Short lists are also better. If you have a large number of things that it can do, inevitably one of them is going to be found to be 'the best' and the others get no use. Easier to balance with a shorter list.
I'd also suggest not being able to directly affect resource collection, I think that's a line that shouldn't be crossed.
havn't you already solved it here?
just adjust how much nano effects certain structures?
In order to adapt them to fps/rts; some ground rules:
1. Can not directly influence combat, only the rts portion of the game. Can not be used on players.
2. Must be limited in effect to avoid too much influence on gameplay. They shouldn't have much of an impact on each use, but instead have an impact when used often and correctly.
3. Is an ability on each comm station and hive. If you have two hives, for example, you can use the ability twice at the same time (once from each hive).
4. Cooldown based. There shouldn't be a cost; the idea is to award comms with good macro. The cooldown should be short to promote frequent use and require effort from the comm to use perfectly (if you don't pay attention (poor macro) you don't get the bonus as much as somebody who does).
5. Alien and marine abilities should be different to preserve asymmetry, but also equally powerful (if both alien and marine comms have perfect macro, they should get an equally powerful bonus from using the ability).
6. Perfect use of the ability should be the baseline for gameplay. For example, if the ability speeds up construction of buildings, the default construction speed has to be slower than it currently is. This avoids the issues created by the current nanocon when used on pgs, for example.
7. In order to make things more interesting, the ability should have a few different uses and effects (all equally powerful when used correctly). For example; the ability could increase maturation time when used on a constructing harvester or speed up res collecting speed when used on an already mature harvester -- balancing it would mean making the res coll boost slightly faster than the inherent res coll boost from faster maturation, because faster maturation also has the benefit of making it less vulnerable to attacks.
8. The ability has a short duration of effect. Between five and ten seconds, rough guess.
Ability suggestions:
Marines get "nanite boost". Effects when used on:
(1) building under construction: faster build speed.
(2) fully constructed building: armor boost (weak nanoshield).
(3) building that is researching an upgrade: faster research speed.
(4) infantry portal: faster spawning.
Aliens get "bacterial injection". Effects when used on:
(1) hive under maturation: faster maturation.
(2) fully mature harvester: faster resource collection.
(3) fully matured hive: faster egg spawning.
(4) evolving alien player: faster gestation time.
Typed up quickly on my mobile. Please ignore typos. All of this obviously needs refining for actual use in the game. Goes without saying that current abilities like nanoshield/con would have to be removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fana always has nice ideas... +like
I'm all for it to nerf nano construct a lot.
Maybe there has to be a minimum build time for buildings, so that no matter how many marines are helping to set up a building it always takes 3-5sec. A phasegate going up in 1 sec is just silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien building time is slow, but doesn't require player assistance outside of a commander is his point. Regardless of how slow alien build time is, you still have a pressure advantage during the early phase of the game. This means marines tend to be on the defensive while the alien structures go up without harassment.
Also, with the current iteration of gorge, even if they were required to build those RT's, they can easily hold off 2-3 marines by themselves.
As far as nano constructing phase gates goes, yes it's pretty ridiculous. One sneaky marine can get his whole team within striking distance of a hive in seconds, for which the only real alien counter is to cyst every square inch of your territory / spam whips everywhere.
That said, I like nano for RT's and quick marine expansion because I feel like they really need it to counter alien map spread, but after a certain point (mid to late game) it becomes overwhelming for aliens how quick marines set up forward locations right next to critical locations. (Realistically, quicker than the alien team could possibly respond)
Agreed, in PUB games there often aren't true RTS players. I myself enjoy (and can win at) Khamming, but I know I would never win versus a hardcore fan of the game style. Fanatic's idea worries me that it would favor clan/tournament games and leave pub games wanting due to drastic skill differences. That said, I do enjoy having more difference in a game due to skill.
Marines get "nanite boost". Effects when used on:
(1) building under construction: faster build speed.
(2) fully constructed building: armor boost (weak nanoshield).
(3) building that is researching an upgrade: faster research speed.
(4) infantry portal: faster spawning.
Aliens get "bacterial injection". Effects when used on:
(1) hive under maturation: faster maturation.
(2) fully mature harvester: faster resource collection.
(3) fully matured hive: faster egg spawning.
(4) evolving alien player: faster gestation time.
Typed up quickly on my mobile. Please ignore typos. All of this obviously needs refining for actual use in the game. Goes without saying that current abilities like nanoshield/con would have to be removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like, but I'd rather see it used on each structure, rather than an overall buff on all structures. For example, activating it on a harvester/extractor should increase res collection rate or on a hive would speed egg spawning. Though I do like the idea of the number of times it can be activated tied to the number of tech nodes captured (i.e. 2 hives = 2 times activated before cooldown).
That was the idea, why did you think I meant otherwise?
To the people worried about its potential detrimental effect on fps gameplay; please read the ground rules again and you will ser that this has already been taken into account. If properly implemented, this would have a much smaller impact on gameplay than the current nanocon and shield.
For example: suppose if neither comm uses the ability to boost res collection rate, then marines would get weapon2 upgrade at the same time aliens get hive2. However, if the alien comm uses the ability perfectly to only boost res collection, while the marine comm doesn't use it at all, then the aliens would get hive2 one minute earlier than marines get weapon2. Hardly a game decider, but a reasonable advantage as a reward for skilled commanding.
Bear in mind that the numbers I used are solely to illustrate the concept. The abilities I suggested in the original post were also for that purpose.
Having the abilities give different effects depending on structure status might be confusing. That is a legitimate concern. Fortunately, it's easy to fix.
+1. Would love to see how this plays. One thing NS2 commanding suffers from is a lack of apm i think. You can perform good commanding with like 10 eapm or something really low for marines, and its much much lower for alien. Average sc2 eapm is like 60-100.
Totally misread then, my mistake. Looks great though and would definitely add value to commanding.
Seriously will this ever get changed? There's no way a 400% building speed bonus can be considered balanced at any point in the game. It still gets spammed on cooldown. Marines still use it to build every single building.
The build bonus needs to change to 50-100% at most, 400% is hilariously imbalanced. 3 t-res cost and a 6 sec cooldown is hilariously trivial. The current build times for the structures in NS2 are not balanced around nano construct. No, giving it a longer cooldown will not solve the problem. No, making it cost more will not solve the problem (though I guess it might help a little).
(figured I would make a nano-construct thread to go with the nano-shield thread- both abilities are hugely problematic UWE!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't even played yet, but doesn't this seem like the kind of thing that should only apply to non-critical buildings?
We already have enough problems getting people to even jump in the command chair, and even on "competitive" teams there is a shortage of willing commanders. Let's not make it more complicated than it is. People like me and other RTS players wouldn't mind it as I see myself getting bored playing as the commander role now, but for the overall good of the game it needs to stay simple and intuitive.
No need for adding a bunch more nonsense to make the game even more complicated and give the devs even more crap to balance. Not worth the time at all.
Instead, we should all be focusing on the real issues with the game, which in my opinion is the cost, strengths of the alien upgrades and expansion. We have all seen games where marines have killed 5-10 hives in one game only to get pushed back into their base and lose. It's a commonly seen place in NS2. Sure, the aliens have the res to keep dropping hives (Isn't that the whole damn problem?).
The aliens don't have enough res sinks. You can literally get away with having 0 upgrades with aliens for quite a long time, and once you finally get your first set you will be stupidly overpowered compared to the marines (In an average game). It's all well and fine to make the alien upgrades powerful but perhaps make things cost more so they can't get them as fast.
The marines seem to never have enough time to tech up accordingly to the aliens, due to early game pressure caused by:
1. Plethora of res
2. Psycho fast expansion rate
3. Aliens having more able bodied fighters
Isn't APM fairly meaningless for an RTS where the units are autonomous?
I like fana's idea, just so long as the modifier is something more tame than 400%.
In order to adapt them to fps/rts; some ground rules:
1. Can not directly influence combat, only the rts portion of the game. Can not be used on players.
2. Must be limited in effect to avoid too much influence on gameplay. They shouldn't have much of an impact on each use, but instead have an impact when used often and correctly.
3. Is an ability on each comm station and hive. If you have two hives, for example, you can use the ability twice at the same time (once from each hive).
4. Cooldown based. There shouldn't be a cost; the idea is to award comms with good macro. The cooldown should be short to promote frequent use and require effort from the comm to use perfectly (if you don't pay attention (poor macro) you don't get the bonus as much as somebody who does).
5. Alien and marine abilities should be different to preserve asymmetry, but also equally powerful (if both alien and marine comms have perfect macro, they should get an equally powerful bonus from using the ability).
6. Perfect use of the ability should be the baseline for gameplay. For example, if the ability speeds up construction of buildings, the default construction speed has to be slower than it currently is. This avoids the issues created by the current nanocon when used on pgs, for example.
7. In order to make things more interesting, the ability should have a few different uses and effects (all equally powerful when used correctly). For example; the ability could increase maturation time when used on a constructing harvester or speed up res collecting speed when used on an already mature harvester -- balancing it would mean making the res coll boost slightly faster than the inherent res coll boost from faster maturation, because faster maturation also has the benefit of making it less vulnerable to attacks.
8. The ability has a short duration of effect. Between five and ten seconds, rough guess.
Ability suggestions:
Marines get "nanite boost". Effects when used on:
(1) building under construction: faster build speed.
(2) fully constructed building: armor boost (weak nanoshield).
(3) building that is researching an upgrade: faster research speed.
(4) infantry portal: faster spawning.
Aliens get "bacterial injection". Effects when used on:
(1) hive under maturation: faster maturation.
(2) fully mature harvester: faster resource collection.
(3) fully matured hive: faster egg spawning.
(4) evolving alien player: faster gestation time.
Typed up quickly on my mobile. Please ignore typos. All of this obviously needs refining for actual use in the game. Goes without saying that current abilities like nanoshield/con would have to be removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea, but it does alot of what mist already is doing.
Also having no cost, only cooldown, makes it an ability that the commander MUST spam or the team is at a disadvantage. For the sake of new comms, and my sanity, this must not be the case. Add depth in other ways.
2. Psycho fast expansion rate
3. Aliens having more able bodied fighters<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a big problem that needs to be addressed. On maps like docking, as alien commander I will take easily 6 harvesters early game. I have nothing to save for at this point except second hive. Alien teammates need to help to keep the harvesters safe, but as long as I am not too liberal it is relatively easy since everyone is fighting.
Marines will struggle to hold 4. They must quickly deploy phase tech, armour 1, weapons 1, mines, shotguns, setup structures, etc despite hardly any resources. While building anything, marines will be attacked themselves or previously built RTs will come under attack.
Marines don't end up with alot of res until mid-game, where the tech takes a long time to research. Early game they are seriously starved. Aliens are the opposite, they have plenty of res early game and only start starving when mid-game abilities and structure spam occurs.
Maybe this is a non-issue, just part of the asymmetry. Its something I find jarring when I play both commanders though, and makes marine commander extremely challenging early game.
Marines will struggle to hold 4. They must quickly deploy phase tech, armour 1, weapons 1, mines, shotguns, setup structures, etc despite hardly any resources. While building anything, marines will be attacked themselves or previously built RTs will come under attack.
Marines don't end up with alot of res until mid-game, where the tech takes a long time to research. Early game they are seriously starved. Aliens are the opposite, they have plenty of res early game and only start starving when mid-game abilities and structure spam occurs.
Maybe this is a non-issue, just part of the asymmetry. Its something I find jarring when I play both commanders though, and makes marine commander extremely challenging early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mostly a map problem imo. Same with mineshaft, you can easily get lots of rts in the northern side of the map as aliens and then hold 2 chokepoints making it very hard to pressure them. Marine close rts are hard to defend and have lots of places for aliens to hide/camp them.
Both of these maps imo need quite major redesign still.
Both of these maps imo need quite major redesign still.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that map has major problems. Marine res base only has 3 nearby res towers, so they must fight over double to win. Aliens can easily hold off the marines in refinery and the chokepoint on the opposite side, sealing off the map.
+1
Have to agree, sorry UWE.
+1