PUB Stacking and New Player Nurturing

WasabiOne

So I play on a lot of PUB servers each night and although its fun, some in the community choose to make it not so much. As a lot of you have probably seen lately, there are a lot of new players coming into the game. These players generally have no idea what to do or what the hell is going on and no one seems to be taking them under their wing.

I have played many games in which experienced players will stack a team just cause they dont want to play with new players, or they even want to steam roll them. This isnt very much fun for those players and it doesnt help our community grow. We all relay on the growth of NS2 for many reasons, including COMP play, more diverse games, more mod's, maps and so much more. So here is what I ask; GIVE THE NOOBS a chance! yes it can be frustrating, yes you may loose (a lot), but if they start to understand it then they will help others and show the game off, which means more people playing.

Not saying this to call anyone in particular out, but with UWE looking to launch this game very soon its better to help build an even more solid player base for the potential influx of even more new players.

**I MAY HAVE RAMBLED A BIT IN THERE, BUT YOU GET MY POINT**

KaptajnKLO

New players who want to listen I have no problem with and don't mind telling them what to do and if they do what the more experienced players says then I have no issues with losing. It's when they won't listen and just do whatever the hell they want, that's when I just give up personally and get slightly annoyed. Though I usually just find another server or just quit playing instead of team stacking, cause I hate team stacking.

rantology

To experienced players: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119466" target="_blank">Join the Gathers.</a>

To the noobs:<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119454" target="_blank"> Get on this boat.</a>

TimMc

What annoys me is how 2 clanmates will desperately try to play together.

Instantly 1 joins each side, then one joins the other so now the teams are 2-0 with them together. I've been seeing this alot. The fact that they join so early probably means they have nice computers too, so hitreg and lag problems are minimal.

Part of me wants random teams forced for this reason, even though I am a crap marine.

rantology

To be honest about once a week GORGEous will ask me if I want to go pubstomp for luls with him. Neither of us consider ourselves "good", but we always end up destroying servers unless there are 4-5 other decent people on the same server (in which case the games are pretty awesome!) Playing with people you know is fun, not because destroying pubs/servers is fun (it's not). It's just that there's only 1-3 servers active at a time and the gathers have been pretty sparse lately, it's not like people can go to a server with "pros only" so they have less of an impact on the game outcomes..


tl;dr it's a game population issue, playing with friends is fun

xDragon

Well tbh you have alot of problems here... Generally I prefer to play with friends, and most pub games are not super tryhard mode its just attempting to have fun.. Would you consider that stacking? Would it be stacking if I was new and playing with a friend? The other is expectations.. After playing alot of NS1 and NS2 I see some of the same issues, playing under a name that is 'known' its problematic.. People either dont want to join the opposite team, people leave instantly when you join, or people constantly complain how you ruin the game. And then on the flip side for games where you just mess around or are half asleep/drunk/whatever you get yelled at by your team for not carrying and causing them to loose, and people feel the need to make a big deal of everything.

The final problem is the new players attitude.. if they are the type of player that wants to try and learn the game, play more and get better, generally speaking they are going to try regardless of how the first games go, because they will realize the learning curve of the game. Its the other types of players, that just want to play and relax, and do not really care to learn the game or its mechanics that are going to get frustrated, and probably leave.

IMHO in NS2 this shouldnt really be a problem, atleast currently... Unless its an entire clan stacking a team 2 players generally cannot make that much of a difference in a 8v8 game in NS2, its not like NS1.

Yuuki

I think a bit of organization would help, make sure to have two decent commanders with mic on each side, a few experienced players and someone with admin rights so he can restart the round. I remember there was something like that during some week-ends at the beginning of the beta.

eh?

So to just get straight to the point of this post I think...

It basically comes down to asking certain players to willingly create balanced teams for the sake of the public gaming experience for new players. (You know who you are) No one can force you to do this, but give it a consideration next time you play a public game I guess.

It's a better option than forcing random in my opinion, but I'll still leave that voterandom thing on the All-In servers if it makes people feel better.

Arkanti

<!--quoteo(post=1952195:date=Jul 18 2012, 06:24 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 18 2012, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a bit of organization would help, make sure to have two decent commanders with mic on each side, a few experienced players and someone with admin rights so he can restart the round. I remember there was something like that during some week-ends at the beginning of the beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

We generally have that set up going on in the Australian servers.

DJPenguin

<!--quoteo(post=1952191:date=Jul 17 2012, 04:19 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 17 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tl;dr it's a game population issue, playing with friends is fun<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

yerp. my tolerance for incompetence is below average. with such a small community it's easy for me to pick out the names of people who knows what they're doing but the stomping gets old after a while. a double edged sword for me.

Khyron

I hate teamstacking and I don't know why people do it. It's the worst when you can tell the outcome of the match just by looking at the teams list. Personally I think a balanced match is more fun and challenging, and those are the only two reasons I play.

Unfortunatley I don't think we can change their motivativations by talking about it. I think the solution requires a ranking system as a foundation. I also don't think UWE regard that as a priority. The lack of a ranking system probably won't harm their sales but it might harm the community because of the reasons discussed in this thread.

One of the stopgap measures that could be taken is simply being able to identify new players. If a player can somehow indicate to his teammates that he's new (like an asterisk next to their name) I'd know what to expect and when to offer advice. Often new players don't broadcast the fact that they're new, so if you had a tickbox in the interface that said "I'm new, help me learn how to play" then it shows up in the game, I think some new players might want to make use of that.

Arkanti

<!--quoteo(post=1952202:date=Jul 18 2012, 07:16 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 18 2012, 07:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate teamstacking and I don't know why people do it. It's the worst when you can tell the outcome of the match just by looking at the teams list. Personally I think a balanced match is more fun and challenging, and those are the only two reasons I play.

Unfortunatley I don't think we can change their motivativations by talking about it. I think the solution requires a ranking system as a foundation. I also don't think UWE regard that as a priority. The lack of a ranking system probably won't harm their sales but it might harm the community because of the reasons discussed in this thread.

One of the stopgap measures that could be taken is simply being able to identify new players. If a player can somehow indicate to his teammates that he's new (like an asterisk next to their name) I'd know what to expect and when to offer advice. Often new players don't broadcast the fact that they're new, so if you had a tickbox in the interface that said "I'm new, help me learn how to play" then it shows up in the game, I think some new players might want to make use of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Oftentimes myself and others have been accused of team stacking when we go Random, so forcing random really just leaves you in the hands of luck as to whether or not the teams are balanced.

Khyron

<!--quoteo(post=1952203:date=Jul 18 2012, 07:24 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Jul 18 2012, 07:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oftentimes myself and others have been accused of team stacking when we go Random, so forcing random really just leaves you in the hands of luck as to whether or not the teams are balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, random isn't a solution. Especially since joining random leads to predictable results unless both teams currently have the same number of players. If it's 5v6 and you go random, you'll be put on the 5 team. That could be fixed by only assigning random players to teams at round start, or as soon as the rr is empty, whichever comes first.

Koruyo

Friends want to play with friends - and should always be able to, without having to feel bad.

To solve this problem, it needs more servers ([requires better server performance, since getting a ns2 server is relative expensive atm]so ppl can change servers if they are unhappy with teams) a bigger community, and in the future maybe someking of raitings with matchmaking... or at least a more advanced system similar to ensl.(if we dont get a solution inside ns2)

internetexplorer

<!--quoteo(post=1952210:date=Jul 17 2012, 06:06 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 17 2012, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Friends want to play with friends - and should always be able to, without having to feel bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is what gathers/scrims are for, not pubs. Is it really so bad that you should play <i>against </i>friends once in a while so that the server you're on doesn't gradually empty out as all the lower-skilled players get bored of being demolished?

as long as people can choose their teams in pubs (for any game), you will see the following hilarious things:
<ul><li>"clan" players stacking because they're not good enough to win scrims/matches </li><li>"can you leave so my friend can be on my team?"</li><li>serverside mods to randomize teams (often these get abused by people who can never believe it was their own fault they lost)</li></ul>

there's no good solution to it, other than getting good at the game if you want to win (whether it's pub or comp), and having a fun time carrying pub teams occasionally

just sayin'

Argathor

Am I the only one who purposefully goes on the opposite team to my own clan and/or friends? They are way more fun to kill than randoms (especially swalk)!

.ADHd

Nothing wrong with stacking the teams every so often, but like other people said it does tend to get boring.

From what I have seen a lot of the good players like to stack on teams together for fun... but it's the "best" players who know they won't improve by playing newbies. So if you wanna be the best then join the unstacked team.

Koruyo

<!--quoteo(post=1952217:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:19 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jul 18 2012, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is what gathers/scrims are for, not pubs. Is it really so bad that you should play <i>against </i>friends once in a while so that the server you're on doesn't gradually empty out as all the lower-skilled players get bored of being demolished?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think you should be careful trying to point a finger at me :) (just because i said what i said, doesnt mean i always stack or support doing it. Everybody does it every now and then - it happens(even in ENSL, if there are ppl that dont know their picks)...
There are ppl that do mix if they feel like ppl are getting very unhappy about it, and there are ppl that continue doing it until the server is more or less empty (well if they consider this fun, we wont make them stop doing it with this thread)

We can make hundreds of threads, the only thing that can change anything is servers with good admins or other systems similar to ensl(or better) - that are easy to get into even for newbies that play for the first time.

So ppl that really feel like t hey always have to play against "stacked" teams get a chance to enjoy a more even challenge.

WasabiOne

thank you everyone for the feedback, and by keeping it nice! You guys all rock, this will help all of us in the end.

Shaker

JONAH!

The All-In server has a nice set up where people can voterandom in the console and it randoms teams. It's a nice way to help avoid stacking and I would love to see it as a vote option on all servers.

zombiehellmonkey

What's really sad is when clan members all want to be on the same team, so you see all the clan tags on one side of the screen, while the other team is made up of random newbies. Uh yeah, your clan is really cool for being able to pwn on a PUBLIC SERVER ... sad.

On pubs, team could be scrambled JUST before the match begins.

Dusteh

I find that the best ns2 players generally like to even the teams for a challenge, which is how it should be. I often have a moan in game at the same few people that team stack every round, it's actually the average skilled clan guys that do this more than anyone because they are afraid of coming up against each other and the risk of getting that +1 to their death count is just too unbearable for them. You know who you are, won't mention any names/clans. Dont get me wrong playing in a team with your friends or just good players in general is far more enjoyable, but where is the challenge in steamrolling a team of new players.

I always play public as I simply cannot be arsed with the whole gather system at the moment, joining teamspeak etc and a lot of the time I have to leave during the middle of a game so it's much more convenient for me. Team stacking is a huge cause for the game just not being fun at all. It makes people rage quit that leads to uneven teams which then leads to a sh*t game of ns2.

Less team stacking please, the game is frustrating enough as it is.

Using a different name in game helps with this by the way, know a few people that do it, myself included.

ham

<!--quoteo(post=1952274:date=Jul 17 2012, 09:47 PM:name=Dusteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusteh @ Jul 17 2012, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952274"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Less team stacking please, the game is frustrating enough as it is.

Using a different name in game helps with this by the way, know a few people that do it, myself included.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How does changing names alleviate the frustrations caused by unbalanced teams?

Dusteh

<!--quoteo(post=1952278:date=Jul 18 2012, 07:10 AM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Jul 18 2012, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does changing names alleviate the frustrations caused by unbalanced teams?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Say for example Fana joins a team, people that know of him and know that team is more than likely going to do well, will also join that team. New players to the game arent to know about who is going to do well and which team is more than likely going to win, meaning they will end up on the team that isnt stacked, causing the game to be totally unbalanced. Sounds ridiculous but it happens, changing his name people wouldn't recognise him as a good player that's going to dominate the game.

Should have explained that a little better yes, pain in the ass posting on the forums using an iPhone.

twiliteblue

Since teams in pub games are often uneven in player numbers. I hope to see small boosts to the team with fewer players, to even the scales. For example, the resource income for that team could be slightly higher, and/or they could respawn slightly faster.

Skuggan

<!--quoteo(post=1952280:date=Jul 18 2012, 08:24 AM:name=Dusteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusteh @ Jul 18 2012, 08:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Say for example Fana joins a team, people that know of him and know that team is more than likely going to do well, will also join that team. New players to the game arent to know about who is going to do well and which team is more than likely going to win, meaning they will end up on the team that isnt stacked, causing the game to be totally unbalanced. Sounds ridiculous but it happens, changing his name people wouldn't recognise him as a good player that's going to dominate the game.

Should have explained that a little better yes, pain in the ass posting on the forums using an iPhone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Instead you get these kinds of threads: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119422" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=119422</a>
B>

Keldorn

Do keep in mind that some people just like to play exclusively as marines or exclusively as aliens, this isn't teamfortress or whatever where the game is symmetrical. I'm not approving on teamstacking when it is a skill related choice, but I can see why some people just prefer one race over the other and that might lead to teamstacking.

.ADHd

<!--quoteo(post=1952292:date=Jul 18 2012, 04:04 AM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Jul 18 2012, 04:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do keep in mind that some people just like to play exclusively as marines or exclusively as aliens, this isn't teamfortress or whatever where the game is symmetrical. I'm not approving on teamstacking when it is a skill related choice, but I can see why some people just prefer one race over the other and that might lead to teamstacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yeah, I pretty much am all-time marine. I only go alien when I feel like playing casually or half asleep.

Hunter.S.T.

I can take your points about team evening, i accept that if you are playing the fps side of the game, you will only get better playing against good players.

But..

As a commander..

Commanding bottom of the barell marines/aliens..

is

horriffic.


And its not like you are going to learn much as a comm from having a team so noobie they loose because they dont respond to any resource under attack messags, or respond when they get told there is a phase gate in our main hive.

Seriosuly, no way im commanding a team that has randomed, and put me with all the gubers, id rather play the fps side at that point, and get some practise in.

Well some practise for 3 minutes neway, after which of course, bevause we've got a guber commander, we start to loose anyway.

And the gubers dont realise when teams even ARE even, ive pld in a couple of games where the good players split themselves, but the gubers are sat there in the ready room, trying to stack whichever team they somehow think is better, and then, the ready roomers vote a random, and restart the game for the entire server...

Its really hard to stay nice and polite and help people learn the game when they have just massivly pissed you off by stopping your game, and restarting it with different teams, because THEY are unwilling to join a team they see as the worst.

anyway, rant over.

rantology

I had a pet marine following me around yesterday. It was awesome but it made me /facepalm too. I would go to build the RT, he would follow. I would go to cover while he builds the RT, he would follow. Just watching me to see what I was doing, not even looking for aliens. I almost died laughing..


this game really needs a tutorial or something, I don't even think he realized that you could/were supposed to build stuff as a marine.

DJPenguin

<!--quoteo(post=1952330:date=Jul 18 2012, 11:16 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 18 2012, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had a pet marine following me around yesterday. It was awesome but it made me /facepalm too. I would go to build the RT, he would follow. I would go to cover while he builds the RT, he would follow. Just watching me to see what I was doing, not even looking for aliens. I almost died laughing..


this game really needs a tutorial or something, I don't even think he realized that you could/were supposed to build stuff as a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

lol i hate that too. i do NOT need help building a damn power node!