Hydras - a Support Structure
botchiball
Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15810Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15810Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">No longer a Static Defender</div>So, yet another Hydra post - hopefully something new for everyone out there. Just as a preliminary background search fyi, I came across the following: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115460" target="_blank">posted in Nov, 2011</a> - which is really fascinating in that it is so close to the current version of Hydra.
<!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro--><b>The Current Hydra</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Right now the Hydra is a joke; it has too little damage when it hits, too little accuracy to matter, and too little of an impact on gameplay because of these. Seeing how the PRes empowered version doesn't seem likely to come back, this is a suggestion pushing in a different - and hopefully more useful - direction.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro--><b>The Suggestion</b>: Remove all Hydra damage. Replace damage with a status effect of amplifying damage.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><b>Further</b>:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
A hit from a Hydra would cause a visible effect on the Marine player or structure which it hits (a 1 square foot yellow splatter).
Each hit would cause an additive effect of +10% damage taken up to a maximum of an additional 100% damage.
This amplified damage effect would be removed by a Med-Pack, Welder, or Armory.
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><b>Benefits</b>:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<ul><li>By removing all damage, the Hydra's issue of not causing enough damage is no longer an issue.</li><li>By giving Hydras an effect of increased damage, which relies on the Gorge/other players to damage the target, the Hydra shifts its roll from that of "static defense" towards that of "support".</li><li>This change would also make a Gorge much more skill based on its own (as the Gorge is the one doing the damage) as well as supportive to the team, since placing and keeping Hydras alive would provide a benefit to the entire team -> but only over time, because the effect is cumulative.</li><li>The yellow splatter is meant to be high visibility and contrasting to the environment, this way in addition to amplifying damage it would also make the Marine easier to see. It would also be a nice visual for players on the Marine side to know that they need to weld their friend up. This also likely isn't possible unless decals are in the game already. Additionally there would need to be a visual on the affected Marine's HUD to show that they are effected.</li><li>This amplified damage would also assist in killing ARC trains since they would be hit as they roll past any Hydras on their way to the Hive.</li><li>The Hydra ability of "shouting" when a Marine is in range becomes all the more important, as it no longer only says "Marines are here!"; but also "Find the ones I tagged!"</li></ul>
This suggestion would also increase the Hydra's usefulness in that Marines who are hit when no Kharaa is around would very likely do multiple of the following:
<ul><li>Stop to kill the Hydra since the effect it applies is a lasting effect.</li><li>Stand out in the open while they are killing it since they are already hit and it doesn't cause damage.</li><li>Shout at the Commander begging for Med-Packs causing confusion and annoyance.</li><li>Ask someone to weld them up slowing down their train.</li><li>Run back to base to get the effect off of them at an Armory.</li></ul>
All would be more useful than the current iteration, which usually involves ignoring the Hydra by running right past it.
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><b>Drawbacks</b>:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<ul><li>Removes the Hydra's ability to do damage at all - making it useless on its own.</li><li>Requires more work for the Gorge in that the Hydra requires someone/thing else to do damage for it.</li><li>Would not provide much of a support at first - a single Hydra would need multiple hits to really be of much benefit -> One hit adding 10% damage would make a Gorge's Spit do 44 instead of 40; or a Skulk's Bite do 82 instead of 75. It is also important to note that I am not suggesting that the Hydra's accuracy to be boosted, so the miss-rate would stay as bad as it is.</li><li>Any Marine or group of Marines would know that there is a Hydra near them since they would not only hear the attack, but see it on their friends body or HUDs.</li><li>When striking a structure with Nano-Shield, the effect would not be applied - allowing a Commander to limit the effect being applied to units/structures in the field. They wouldn't be able to remove the effect from a structure right away, but they could give themselves time to get a MAC over to the structure in need.</li><li>The yellow splash effect could also be used as a disadvantage for the Hydras -> every time the Hydra misses, a yellow spot on the floor or wall could display the miss. This would notify any Marines coming by that they should Sprint or find the Hydra to kill it.</li></ul>
<!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro--><b>The Current Hydra</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Right now the Hydra is a joke; it has too little damage when it hits, too little accuracy to matter, and too little of an impact on gameplay because of these. Seeing how the PRes empowered version doesn't seem likely to come back, this is a suggestion pushing in a different - and hopefully more useful - direction.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro--><b>The Suggestion</b>: Remove all Hydra damage. Replace damage with a status effect of amplifying damage.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><b>Further</b>:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
A hit from a Hydra would cause a visible effect on the Marine player or structure which it hits (a 1 square foot yellow splatter).
Each hit would cause an additive effect of +10% damage taken up to a maximum of an additional 100% damage.
This amplified damage effect would be removed by a Med-Pack, Welder, or Armory.
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><b>Benefits</b>:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<ul><li>By removing all damage, the Hydra's issue of not causing enough damage is no longer an issue.</li><li>By giving Hydras an effect of increased damage, which relies on the Gorge/other players to damage the target, the Hydra shifts its roll from that of "static defense" towards that of "support".</li><li>This change would also make a Gorge much more skill based on its own (as the Gorge is the one doing the damage) as well as supportive to the team, since placing and keeping Hydras alive would provide a benefit to the entire team -> but only over time, because the effect is cumulative.</li><li>The yellow splatter is meant to be high visibility and contrasting to the environment, this way in addition to amplifying damage it would also make the Marine easier to see. It would also be a nice visual for players on the Marine side to know that they need to weld their friend up. This also likely isn't possible unless decals are in the game already. Additionally there would need to be a visual on the affected Marine's HUD to show that they are effected.</li><li>This amplified damage would also assist in killing ARC trains since they would be hit as they roll past any Hydras on their way to the Hive.</li><li>The Hydra ability of "shouting" when a Marine is in range becomes all the more important, as it no longer only says "Marines are here!"; but also "Find the ones I tagged!"</li></ul>
This suggestion would also increase the Hydra's usefulness in that Marines who are hit when no Kharaa is around would very likely do multiple of the following:
<ul><li>Stop to kill the Hydra since the effect it applies is a lasting effect.</li><li>Stand out in the open while they are killing it since they are already hit and it doesn't cause damage.</li><li>Shout at the Commander begging for Med-Packs causing confusion and annoyance.</li><li>Ask someone to weld them up slowing down their train.</li><li>Run back to base to get the effect off of them at an Armory.</li></ul>
All would be more useful than the current iteration, which usually involves ignoring the Hydra by running right past it.
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><b>Drawbacks</b>:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<ul><li>Removes the Hydra's ability to do damage at all - making it useless on its own.</li><li>Requires more work for the Gorge in that the Hydra requires someone/thing else to do damage for it.</li><li>Would not provide much of a support at first - a single Hydra would need multiple hits to really be of much benefit -> One hit adding 10% damage would make a Gorge's Spit do 44 instead of 40; or a Skulk's Bite do 82 instead of 75. It is also important to note that I am not suggesting that the Hydra's accuracy to be boosted, so the miss-rate would stay as bad as it is.</li><li>Any Marine or group of Marines would know that there is a Hydra near them since they would not only hear the attack, but see it on their friends body or HUDs.</li><li>When striking a structure with Nano-Shield, the effect would not be applied - allowing a Commander to limit the effect being applied to units/structures in the field. They wouldn't be able to remove the effect from a structure right away, but they could give themselves time to get a MAC over to the structure in need.</li><li>The yellow splash effect could also be used as a disadvantage for the Hydras -> every time the Hydra misses, a yellow spot on the floor or wall could display the miss. This would notify any Marines coming by that they should Sprint or find the Hydra to kill it.</li></ul>
Comments
Hey AuroN2 - I totally agree with you, I would LOVE to see the old system back. But as I said in the above post, rather than just gripe at UWE to change the system back, I'm trying to point out that the current Hydras really aren't working and to suggest a new system would be more helpful. Its not meant to be a "new kool feature", its meant to be a "replace the crappy old feature" suggestion. It seems like the devs aren't interested in bringing the old system back, so I'm trying to think of how to make the new system better.
Do you have any constructive criticism on the idea above, or ideas on how to make Hydras more useful again, that doesn't involve reverting back to the old system?
I think it would be much better to adjust hydras in their current form rather than turning them into a debuff structure.
That's pretty much the center point of this idea Typhon, yes sometimes it wouldn't matter (like with Swipe or Gore) - but it has the possibility to drastically help Skulks/Gorges/Lerks and group fights (which is most fights). The Hydra would switch from doing 20 damage, to increasing player damage - thereby taking a big portion of AI fighting out of the game. It would then require thinking on the Marine's part of what to do in their situation, and skill on the Kharaan's part as to be able to use the amplified damage buff before the Marines get rid of it. If <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Damage_types" target="_blank">this information</a> can be trusted, then:
<ul><li>typically:</li><li>A0 Marine takes 3 bites to kill or 2 bites and 1 parasite, 4 spits, 2 swipes, 2 gores</li><li>A3 Marine takes 4 bites to kill, 7 spits, 4 swipes, 3 gores</li><li>with 1.5x damage:</li><li>A0 Marine takes 2 bites to kill or 1 bite and 4 parasites, 3 spits, 2 swipes, 1 gores</li><li>A3 Marine takes 3 bites to kill, 5 spits, 3 swipes, 2 gores</li><li>and with double damage: </li><li>A0 Marine takes 2 bites to kill or 1 bite and 1 parasite, 2 spits, 2 swipes, 1 gores</li><li>A3 Marine takes 2 bites to kill or 1 bite and 6 parasites, 4 spits, 2 swipes, 2 gores</li></ul>
I don't really trust the Lerk's info as being updated enough to compute it, but if you notice - there are some pretty nice workouts there, like that A3 always requires 2 hits minimum, and that A0 with full double damage is one bite/one para. But just to note -> the likely hood of a Marine having 10 hits against them from a Hydra are fairly low, and the longer they are affected, the more likely they will be med packed. Most of the time Hydras would be used, I would imagine that the affect would add up to around 2-5 hits before the threat of exceeded damage would force a med-pack/heal/weld.
Please remember that most Marines take damage from a multitude of sources in one lifetime (multiple lifeforms as well as whips, spores, healspray, etc), so that these numbers aren't a good representation of "average deaths". <!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro-->Also take note that all of these are player attacks (requiring skill), versus a standard 20 damage per hit from the current Hydra.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The 20 damage never increases, so at A0 it takes 8 Hydra Spikes, and A3 takes 14 Hydra Spikes -> which also depends on "IF" they hit.
<!--quoteo(post=1952663:date=Jul 19 2012, 07:40 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jul 19 2012, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it would be much better to adjust hydras in their current form rather than turning them into a debuff structure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with Hydras now is that they don't do enough damage, but by increasing their damage people will start complaining "Marine vs. AI isn't fun" - its not a new argument. This concept of debuffing Marines (or buffing Kharaan attacks) permanently removes the AI being "too powerful" issue. At this point, its a matter of - the Comm not supporting his troops, the Marines not buying Welders to protect each other, or individual Marines over extending themselves (and not using the Armory). Personally I'd rather have a structure which I can tell is helping me kill something, rather than one that pecks at my foe without my knowledge or does my fighting for me.
I think some of the things you listed would make for interesting gameplay, the stuff about tagging a marine for priority damage and healing etc. But I have some concerns...
First, the ability to use something like your suggestion in concert with enzyme. This could make for a devastating advantage for a well skilled team, I'm particularly thinking of competitive games but also really veteran players on pub games.
Second, we might see changes to how hydras are used in the sense that they might be built offensively. Worst case scenario is seeing skulks run in to marine base, climb up to some high railing, evolve to gorge and then build hydras in the marine base. I have no doubt that many players enjoy that kind of thing, but generally it is inherently unbalanced because marines have little recourse until late game (JP or GL).
Lastly, changing yet another role for yet another NS1 mechanic would be yet another 11th hour, untested change. If the third option of making balance changes (dmg, tracking, health, cap limit etc) within their current role is ruled out I'd rather stick with the boring option of making no change.
At least we do see hydras being built in nearly every game. Three hydras with a gorge can really assist blocking off an area from marine access. One marine vs gorge with hydras favours the aliens. For each additional marine in the area, add a skulk (which can be healed by the gorge). That situation still favours the aliens I think. Having one gorge and n skulks is also more effective than n+1 skulks. That remains true until grenades are in play, at which time whips and crags are required. I am in favour of bringing back intelligent whip grenade flicking though. I really liked the one-upmanship of hydras<grenades<whips<ARCs.
I think some of the things you listed would make for interesting gameplay, the stuff about tagging a marine for priority damage and healing etc. But I have some concerns...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hydra accuracy, lack of health, build time, and max cap at 3 are four issues that I have with the current Hydra -> however I am trying to push the issue past "why Hydras are bad compared to what they used to be" and on to "how Hydras could be more effective and interesting in the game."
<!--quoteo(post=1952704:date=Jul 19 2012, 11:44 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 19 2012, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, the ability to use something like your suggestion in concert with enzyme. This could make for a devastating advantage for a well skilled team, I'm particularly thinking of competitive games but also really veteran players on pub games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently this is what the wiki states that it does: <!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->Duration: 3 seconds, Rate of Fire Increase: 25%<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. Since Enzyme only increases rate of fire, then it doesn't conflict with this suggestion. It would still take the same number of hits to kill a target as stated, it will just be done faster.
<!--quoteo(post=1952704:date=Jul 19 2012, 11:44 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 19 2012, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Second, we might see changes to how hydras are used in the sense that they might be built offensively. Worst case scenario is seeing skulks run in to marine base, climb up to some high railing, evolve to gorge and then build hydras in the marine base. I have no doubt that many players enjoy that kind of thing, but generally it is inherently unbalanced because marines have little recourse until late game (JP or GL).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've see this already on occasion (or we did in recent builds) where someone gets it into their head to mess with the Marines as a Gorge. The good thing about this concept is that the Hydras wouldn't do any damage, so the Marines can take their time to kill the annoying Gorge, then use an Armory to wash off the debuff, and then be on their way.
<!--quoteo(post=1952704:date=Jul 19 2012, 11:44 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 19 2012, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lastly, changing yet another role for yet another NS1 mechanic would be yet another 11th hour, untested change. If the third option of making balance changes (dmg, tracking, health, cap limit etc) within their current role is ruled out I'd rather stick with the boring option of making no change.
At least we do see hydras being built in nearly every game. Three hydras with a gorge can really assist blocking off an area from marine access. One marine vs gorge with hydras favours the aliens. For each additional marine in the area, add a skulk (which can be healed by the gorge). That situation still favours the aliens I think. Having one gorge and n skulks is also more effective than n+1 skulks. That remains true until grenades are in play, at which time whips and crags are required. I am in favour of bringing back intelligent whip grenade flicking though. I really liked the one-upmanship of hydras<grenades<whips<ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Shrug* I don't feel like its the "11th hour" yet. In their current "boring option" as you put it, Hydras are in-effective - i.e. they don't work. We may see them in games, but how often do you see a Hydra kill: once per game? maybe twice? That isn't really fair as they only do 20 damage per hit and may be doing more in the background to peck at the marines, but when is the last time you really noticed their assistance? The only thing I have ever noticed is that they are a minor inconvenience to new players - i.e. the player sees the Hydra, wonders "oh god, what is that" and runs away from the damage. Any player who knows the Hydra mechanic simply runs past it, or shoots the Gorge healing it. This 'removing Hydra damage' wouldn't just make the Hydra more useful as a support -> it would also force the Gorge to get his face off Heal Spraying the Hydras, making him kill the marines.
I don't think I agree with your different examples. As stated above, 3xHydras+Gorge does essentially nothing to a player who knows whats going on. 3xHydras+Gorge+Clog wall does, but only until the Clogs have been killed, then its back to scenario 1 - especially if a Comm drops a med-pack. You said "For each additional marine in the area, add a skulk" and it stays Kharaa favored; also that "one gorge and n skulks is also more effective than n+1 skulks" - but you're assuming a lot here:
Is the Gorge IN the fight, or out of sight providing healing?
If the Gorge is in the fight, why are the marines not killing him?
If the Gorge is out of sight, why are the marines not simply running around to find him?
Are the marines keeping their speed up and negating the Hydra's damage?
And most important: How skilled are the marine's at shooting and the skulks at biting? Note that the Gorge's "skill" at hiding in a hole with a button held down doesn't come into play, 'cause it doesn't take skill.
The point of this suggestion is not just to make Hydras more useful as support; it is that in the process of doing so, the Gorge will also become more useful as support, more based on skill, and more interesting to play. Maybe this Hydra suggestion wont work on in the end, but this lack of Gorge skill (and <u>fun</u>) is the huge issue that I would like to see fixed before the game is released.
Yup, I like that one. The difference between that idea and this one is that this concept would still be beneficial if the Gorge isn't around to assist. Actually I would be keen on both ideas working together - Hydras not doing damage but applying a debuff, when Gorge is in range they focus fire on the Gorge's target. Would help get the buff onto one marine rather than randomly targeting out of a group.
Take a look at this idea, some cool stuff as well: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119112" target="_blank">post by fluttermingo</a> about upgrading Hydras. Also take a look at another of mine <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">here</a>, its a little more generic but still would assist in Hydra balancing and making the Gorge a more interesting and useful class.
Because slowing a character feels like a cheat to the player being hit -> Gorge Spit used to slow as well as block vision, caused a lot of problems. Mainly that once a target is hit once, its pretty much a sure kill. As for marines running past the Hydras - the idea of this amplified damage is that Marines would be less concerned with being hit by the Hydras, since they aren't actually doing damage and a single hit has a negligible effect. The placement of Hydras and Clogs would still be just as important, and the goal of having Marines tied up in the defenses would still be there. But a major benefit would now be that Marines who are hit would be 'tagged' for the Kharaa to know who to target first.
<!--quoteo(post=1961494:date=Aug 11 2012, 11:47 PM:name=supsu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (supsu @ Aug 11 2012, 11:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just make them cost pres and remove the cap of being able to only land 3 hydras: OCs weren't a problem in ns1 so I don't understand why the devs think it'd be a problem here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because Hydras are spammed everywhere to the point that the Khamm can no longer build structures, and the Hydra farms don't provide anything to the game other than stopping the marines until GLs or ARCs can utterly destroy them in a couple shots. The Devs have been trying to transition the Hydras from just another "building" to an "ability" which the Gorge uses. While I wasn't hot on it at first, I am liking the concept of the new Hydras - I just think it needs to be skill based. There is almost no skill required to use a Hydra in its current form, requiring the Gorge or other lifeforms to target a Marine and provide the damage DOES require skill. Going back to the previous way Hydras worked won't help skill-based combat, it will just make Hydra farms show up again and slow down servers.
well, if you just have it scale, just as you were saying with amp damage, (say, from 5% to 50%) it wouldnt be such a sure kill. and of course you wouldnt block vision, i hate that.
also, why not use the same 'tag' splatter effect that you were talking about? same idea of "attack this guy" would still stand.
as someone said earlier, the fact that most damage by the kharaa is big chunks that will create these odd breakpoints, where as this would reduce survivability very linearly. mobility is basically life against a skulk.
i dont see how your solution changes the "just run past them" strategy. your even saying that under your system, a few hits are negligable, and could just be welded away around the next corner.
While both decreased speed and increased damage would scale over time, the reason decreasing speed is 'ensuring a kill' is because it is changing the Marine player's ability to defend themselves. The slower the Marine would get, the more frustrated the Marine player will become - they more they feel cheated. However, sequentially increasing damage taken wouldn't do the same - the Marine may get frustrated that they are dying faster, but it is because they are allowing themselves to be damaged with their full potential to bear -> not reducing the player's control over their Marine.
There will be odd breakpoints, but this is a moot point - there are always odd breakpoints. Does it really matter that there must be one application of a 10% increased damage before a Skulk can kill a level 0 Marine in two Bites instead of three? As soon as the Marine has Armor level 1, it would take 3 applications to matter. Meanwhile, a parasite's damage can change a lot of this math, and if a Gorge is Spitting at the Marine then the math is thrown off again; what if the Gorge is using Healspray - again, screwed up math. "Odd breakpoints" and counting on the "math" behind the game is a great base of how too look at a problem, but beyond that its too unpredictable to predict what will truly happen in a game. You can look at the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119451&view=findpost&p=1952679" target="_blank">simple math I did above</a>, but I see this system as working very nicely.
"Just run past them" is still a viable tactic for the Marines, what changes is that a Gorge can no longer rely on the Hydras to do their dirty work for them. The Gorge has to be out doing damage, or working with Skulks to stop the Marines. Also if a Marine does simply neglect the Hydra, then this means a single Hydra will like splatter more Marines with the status effect; and each effected Marine will have a mark on their armor, letting players know which Marines to target first.