The Khaara(Aliens) are so OP
Nhetik
Join Date: 2012-07-15 Member: 154139Members
Join Date: 2012-07-15 Member: 154139Members
Sorry for the wall-o-text.
I played alot of NS1 when it was still very active, i purchased this game two days ago and having played 10+ hours since then i've noticed that 9 out of 10 games the Khaara wins.
As a marine, it's so, so hard to kill skulks because of their fast movement, this leads to the Khaara early-domination and therefor gets total map-control. Skulks moves so quickly that they're at your feet in no time and we all know that trying to shoot a skulk circling around your feet is nearly impossible and hey, at the start of the game with 0 upgrades for both teams the skulks kills marines with 3 bites, and a skulk bites twice a second.
One other thing is that the marines have to reload soooooo often, the light machine gun that you start with is absolutely terrible when it comes to killing more than one skulk at a time because you will have to reload after 3~ seconds of firing.
Also i find this gun completely worthless end-game due to its low damage and Khaara health end-game. Good luck trying to kill a fade with carapace upgrade with the light machine gun even with +3 weapon, you need to spend two full magazines in order to kill one fade late game.
What happened to the heavy machine gun that we had in NS1? It allowed for a little bit more damage and we could pretty much shoot non-stop (Which is what we need late game to kill fades, fast lerks and onos)
Most of you are gonna tell me to get the shotgun and start one-shotting lerks and skulks. Let me tell you one thing, the shotgun is only good close combat, why the hell would i want a close combat weapon against a fade/onos late game? We need some kind of weapon (BRING BACK THE HEAVY MACHINE GUN FROM NS1) that deals good damage on a distance, just like the light machine gun you start with but it deals more damage and/or has a bigger clip, one solution would be for the commander to be able to research an upgrade for the light machine gun to have a bigger clip by default. (Say 20% more)
statistically you want the win ratio to be 50/50 for both teams, but right now i feel the Khaara is totally dominating with a 95%~ win ratio.
Just for the record i played a fade yesterday, and with the celeretity and adrenaline upgrade i hade a score of 52 kills and 11 deaths due to the fact that i can blink in, kill a marine while tanking some damage(Marines deals so low damage late game) and then blink out to safety to regen and rinse repeat.
What do you guys think?
I played alot of NS1 when it was still very active, i purchased this game two days ago and having played 10+ hours since then i've noticed that 9 out of 10 games the Khaara wins.
As a marine, it's so, so hard to kill skulks because of their fast movement, this leads to the Khaara early-domination and therefor gets total map-control. Skulks moves so quickly that they're at your feet in no time and we all know that trying to shoot a skulk circling around your feet is nearly impossible and hey, at the start of the game with 0 upgrades for both teams the skulks kills marines with 3 bites, and a skulk bites twice a second.
One other thing is that the marines have to reload soooooo often, the light machine gun that you start with is absolutely terrible when it comes to killing more than one skulk at a time because you will have to reload after 3~ seconds of firing.
Also i find this gun completely worthless end-game due to its low damage and Khaara health end-game. Good luck trying to kill a fade with carapace upgrade with the light machine gun even with +3 weapon, you need to spend two full magazines in order to kill one fade late game.
What happened to the heavy machine gun that we had in NS1? It allowed for a little bit more damage and we could pretty much shoot non-stop (Which is what we need late game to kill fades, fast lerks and onos)
Most of you are gonna tell me to get the shotgun and start one-shotting lerks and skulks. Let me tell you one thing, the shotgun is only good close combat, why the hell would i want a close combat weapon against a fade/onos late game? We need some kind of weapon (BRING BACK THE HEAVY MACHINE GUN FROM NS1) that deals good damage on a distance, just like the light machine gun you start with but it deals more damage and/or has a bigger clip, one solution would be for the commander to be able to research an upgrade for the light machine gun to have a bigger clip by default. (Say 20% more)
statistically you want the win ratio to be 50/50 for both teams, but right now i feel the Khaara is totally dominating with a 95%~ win ratio.
Just for the record i played a fade yesterday, and with the celeretity and adrenaline upgrade i hade a score of 52 kills and 11 deaths due to the fact that i can blink in, kill a marine while tanking some damage(Marines deals so low damage late game) and then blink out to safety to regen and rinse repeat.
What do you guys think?
Comments
I can only suggest playing a bit more.
On topic of HMG, thats not coming. What is coming is exosuits with chainguns and railguns iirc.
Edit: Also depends heavily on server performance and hitreg. I've saw a marine kill 2 skulks with 1 clip last night, so you have plenty of bullets.
Sure the skulk is deadly when he's up close but he has to get their to deal damage. You have to position yourself so that you have always a good overview of your surroundings and that you can shoot any incoming skulk easily. If you burst all your ammo in one go the LMG is empty in ~3sec but if you aim and only shoot when the crosshair is over the enemy you should do fine. Also the damage of the skulk doesn't scale other than the damage of the LMG. So they become less dangerous over time.
The LMG isn't supposed a weapon which is useful in every moment of the game. Fades are best killed with shotguns.
The Heavy Machine guns will have their comeback in a slightly different form when the exo skeleton will be implemented (kinda new version of the heavy armor).
It's right that you don't want the Fade and Onos up close but when they are the shotgun deals a ton of damage. Remember the aliens are players as well, it isn't fun to be shot all the time from the distance without being able to get close to the marines. Sometimes it is already like this thanks to the Grenade Launcher.
Of course it should be a 50/50 ratio but remember the game is still in beta there are still some features missing and the balancing isn't done.
And in the current build the marines have the upper hand as soon as they reach late game, at least in my eyes.
Yeah early game skulk vs marine can be tricky, at the moment alot of people feel that's to do with hit reg, so the current mood is to give it one more build.
I wouldn't underestimate the lmg, with damage upgrades they are the onos killer atm, (to do with damage types).
I will say one thing, whoever it was who decided to make turrets useless should be fired from UWE, stripped of their clothes, murdered and dumped in a swamp somewhere.
Due an bug in 212 i had to disable turrets (they crashing the servers) and the game feels fine.
I saw many marine wins without any turret.
Now turrets are for support, not for complete lockdown of areas.
214 has some little issues for sure but its goin in the right direction in my opinion.
In 212 we had an useless fade cause this "fade is op" debatte. He lost his role as an harasser. With very little tweaks on the fade and lerk, both class are fine.
One marine should never kill an fade alone @ same skill level.
Due an bug in 212 i had to disable turrets (they crashing the servers) and the game feels fine.
I saw many marine wins without any turret.
Now turrets are for support, not for complete lockdown of areas.
214 has some little issues for sure but its goin in the right direction in my opinion.
In 212 we had an useless fade cause this "fade is op" debatte. He lost his role as an harasser. With very little tweaks on the fade and lerk, both class are fine.
One marine should never kill an fade alone @ same skill level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1951683:date=Jul 15 2012, 06:23 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Jul 15 2012, 06:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>One marine should never kill an fade alone @ same skill level.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me tell you why that's bull######.
There's no limit on how many fades can be on the Khaara-team at the same time, which means there could theoretically be 8 fades in the Khaara team vs 8 Marines.
If 1 Marine cant kill 1 Fade alone, then this is the reason to why Khaara is winning 90% of all the public games atm.
1 Marine should always be equal to 1 Skulk/Lerk/Fade on the same skill level in order to keep the game balanced. Imo the Khaara should fear engaging a group of marines endgame but as of right now its the other way around, fades, skulks and lerks close the distance on marines so fast making marines ranged weaponry so useless end game since we die as soon as we start reloading.
1 fade should never be equal to 1 basic lmg marine since the alien player has 50 pres invested and the marine has 0.
1) You've only played 10 hours.
2) Hitreg is not good.
Let me elaborate on #2.
A fade with carapace has 100 armor and 300 health Against an LMG, it takes 500 damage to kill a fade. It takes 2 normal damage (lmg is normal) to remove 1 armor point. An lmg does 10 damage per bullet at w0, 13 damage per bullet at w3. So at weapons 3, a carapace fade takes 38.46 bullets, rounded up to 39 bullets to kill. You never see this in real games because a) you miss and b) hitreg problems eat lots of bullets. This is why it takes you 2 clips to kill a fade. Also, their health was buffed by 100 and armor by 20 (with carapace) in this latest build. This hp/armor buff seems unnecessary to many of the experienced players.
For some more information, an early game skulk with no upgrades takes 10 w0-lmg bullets to kill. A skulk with carapace takes 18 w0-lmg bullets to kill.
About your complaints on skulks, you're just dead wrong. Marines dominate skulks early game, but it is very dependent on the situation. A good marine in sub access can probably win a 1v2 against two decent skulks. But a marine in glass hallway or reactor core still probably loses 1v1.
Someone else mentioned that fades almost always win 1v1. That's true. You mentioned this is dumb because there can be 8 fades and if 8 marines always lose 1v1, then 8 marines always lose to 8 fades. That's not necessarily true because marines in groups have more power than just the sum of their parts. A pair of marines > 2 individual marines. 5 marines > 5 lone marines. Etc.
Basically, just play more and hope they can fix hitreg.
There's no limit on how many fades can be on the Khaara-team at the same time, which means there could theoretically be 8 fades in the Khaara team vs 8 Marines.
If 1 Marine cant kill 1 Fade alone, then this is the reason to why Khaara is winning 90% of all the public games atm.
1 Marine should always be equal to 1 Skulk/Lerk/Fade on the same skill level in order to keep the game balanced. Imo the Khaara should fear engaging a group of marines endgame but as of right now its the other way around, fades, skulks and lerks close the distance on marines so fast making marines ranged weaponry so useless end game since we die as soon as we start reloading.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BS. A 50 res unit should not get killed so easy by a single marine. Do ypu think 1 Skulk can deal with 1 EXO?
And nexttime don't reload, switch to the pistol and then to the AXE, or even use the riflebutt!
And nexttime don't reload, switch to the pistol and then to the AXE, or even use the riflebutt!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree in principle, but the issue is that more than half the alien team can be fade at once. This was never the case in NS1.
Numerous games this build (and a few builds prior), the alien team has had 0 skulks....all lerks/fades/onos.
Numerous games this build (and a few builds prior), the alien team has had 0 skulks....all lerks/fades/onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't the case in NS1 because all classes were more important and the Fade was weaker (and would die faster). I think the issue is that all lifeforms are stronger in NS2 so that more people can play them longer and not be so pissed when the higher lifeform dies, but the downside is that the skulk is less and less used. Essentially the Skulk's role has changed from "Main Warrior and old-faithful Fallback Lifeform" to "Scout and if-you-have-to Fallback Lifeform". Lerk/Fade/Onos used to be "Special", now they are everyplace. *Shrug*, its just a natural progression of the game, and I'm actually kind of a fan - I just wish each class had more use through the game.
I think there is a much larger issue with the Onos, it is so overpowered that all of the other lifeforms seem to simply be there as a 'waiting for Onos' fun mode.
<ul><li>Other people have pointed out issues with the skulk.</li><li>Gorge is necessary for healing, but only one is required for an Onos assault (required being used loosely). Plus their structures have been made impermanent, and all building of Kharaan economy has been removed since NS1 - so no real reason for there to be many of them. Bile Bomb is one thing that they do well, but since the Gorge is so weak compared to an Onos's massive health and other abilities like CC.. unless they are the only healer, even a biling Gorge is usually considered "Not an Onos" in the end game</li><li>Lerk is nice as a pecking instrument, good for crowd annoyance (but not as good Onos' crowd control). The Umbra move was a good idea, but now I never see it used. In the end, a Lerk with 100 res at end game is "Not an Onos."</li><li>Fade is pretty powerful on its own, but when there are too many people in the room it seems to be a bit crowded for them and their effectiveness goes down (its harder to maneuver and easier to take too much damage). The Vortex is an interesting idea.. but personally I hate it. Just a new iteration of Devour - I think there are many better options to go with. Plus a smart group of marines faced with a room of 1 Fade and 7 Skulks will all shoot the Fade; even in a room with an Onos or two as well, there will often be a call of "shoot the Fade." It just makes sense to hit the enemy where they are weaker, but it will still cause pain. Just in terms of being the most helpful to the team in a "final assault attempt" - an Onos would be a better use than a Fade.</li></ul>
All of these issues have been getting better over the past few builds though. I pointed out at least one new change for each of the three (bile, umbra, vortex) - I just think there needs to be even MORE usability and teamwork boosting skills in each class.
I believe a SG/JP marine with w1/a1 should be able to solo a fade. They have somewhat comparable PRes/TRes investment (more PRes on the alien side, but more TRes on the marine side) so it makes sense imo that they should be the fade solo counter.
I would say that the Onos is no longer overpowered, the jetpack took nearly any power and fear from it. The carapace penalty nerfed it even more and the exo will do another part in it. Sure it is troublesome when you're close to it without jetpack but otherwise?
<!--quoteo(post=1951736:date=Jul 15 2012, 12:36 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 15 2012, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe a SG/JP marine with w1/a1 should be able to solo a fade. They have somewhat comparable PRes/TRes investment (more PRes on the alien side, but more TRes on the marine side) so it makes sense imo that they should be the fade solo counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would agree with you, if they were to make the jetpack expensiver. Current Jetpack + Shotgun combo is 30Res, Fade is 50Res. Shotgun can be repicked up. So if you compare the res paid, the fade should theoretically always win against a jetpack shotgun.
<!--quoteo(post=1951742:date=Jul 15 2012, 02:51 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 15 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would agree with you, if they were to make the jetpack expensiver. Current Jetpack + Shotgun combo is 30Res, Fade is 50Res. Shotgun can be repicked up. So if you compare the res paid, the fade should theoretically always win against a jetpack shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade requires much less tres investment than JPs, and comes out quicker. Balance is not so simple an issue as that which costs more should win 1v1, besides a good fade will win 1v1 especially with regen.
Also Onos is becoming increasingly worthless as anything but a way to focus down the power, they go down in droves (heck the other day I saw the marine team survive a 5 onos rush which the onos didnt) and are completely helpless against JPs (one jp can pretty much solo an onos, and the onos cant escape).
As for devour, I do not understand why everyone hates it. It only effects one person, requires the onos to get into melee range and suffer being shot at by everyone and in general took some skill and planning to use. Stomp is way worse, you just right click and everyone in front of you becomes skulkchow, there is no skill, no planning, no elegance in execution. It is just an uninspired, easy and unfun crowd control which at least to me (from the marine point of view) is considerably lamer and harder to balance than devour ever was. Not to mention it becomes worthless the moment JPs come out but is hilariously OP until then.
Also, am I the only one who thinks that once hitreg is at good levels the aliens will have the floor wiped with them? The fact that marines even win SOME games when aliens have an effective x3 multiplier to hp (cause it takes roughly 3x the bullets to kill them on average) to me at least indicates that there will be some serious rape once it actually takes 10 bullets to kill a skulk.
Also what gorgeous said, its called synergy and happens cause marines have guns and can support each other at any distance while aliens have to all cluster around the same marines (and suffer the godawful collision system which makes any sort of elaborate manoeuver in crowded space a nightmare).
Also3, the shotgun is excellent against both fade and onos. In fact it might be considered the hard counter to the former (or as close to a hard counter as this game has).
Seriously though, I hate this games engine gameplay wise (also it looks mighty pretty).
Shotgun/jp shouldn't be 'the counter' to fade, it should be roughly equal to a fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1951742:date=Jul 15 2012, 02:51 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 15 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would agree with you, if they were to make the jetpack expensiver. Current Jetpack + Shotgun combo is 30Res, Fade is 50Res. Shotgun can be repicked up. So if you compare the res paid, the fade should theoretically always win against a jetpack shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think jp is simply under costed at the moment.
There is another aspect to this which Nhetik was kind of getting at which is that both sides need to be able to gain relative parity in terms of the pres investment they can make at any one time. For instance, if exos are only 50 pres, then the marines can only have 50x #players pres in their army art any one time while aliens could have up to 75x #players for an all onos team. Exos need to be around 75 pres, and be worth it.
8 fades shouldn't be an effective strategy much in the way that 8 GLs shouldn't be. Should be a risky tactic with a high chance of failure, much like going all onos is/should be. This this the best way to address "mass tech" that you describe, and should occur before 1.0.
Best thing to do is give suggestions to contribute to this beta.
8 fades shouldn't be an effective strategy much in the way that 8 GLs shouldn't be. Should be a risky tactic with a high chance of failure, much like going all onos is/should be. This this the best way to address "mass tech" that you describe, and should occur before 1.0.
Best thing to do is give suggestions to contribute to this beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I'm pretty sure 8 fades should not work. Fades are terrible against buildings, so will eventually die off as they kill marines as they spawn/beacon.
As I've said tho, fades are too strong atm so I think 8 fades would win a game.
I even think the onos has to become cheaper. Currently he is just not even worth the 75res. I think he should cost around 50res like the fade, just that he should be used for different things than the fade.
Or he has to become worth the res he costs again.
Or he has to become worth the res he costs again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The onos needs to be 75 res because he is practically autowin if he comes out and the marines don't have jetpack tech. That 75 pres cost is a pacing mechanism which means he comes out in a reasonable time. If you dumped that down to fade cost (50) then you could be seeing onos far too early and they'd destroy marines map control..
I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the current system with the abilities bound to the hives and the nerfed carapace. A onos without stomp is pretty much useless. A onos can die very easily against non jetpackers.
But i'd prefer to see him become worth the 75res again over a 50res version.
Not to say exo "fixes" anything per se, but rather the entire game wont be reliant on aliens having their end game tech and marines not, and not having JPs as the stand in end game etc etc..
True balance feedback regarding the nitty gritty like this stuff won't apply until after the exo has been in for a few weeks..
You are correct that the JP drastically outclasses an Onos. However, a rush of Onos can still take out a secondary CC if done correctly -> which gets rid of JPs now. As I said before, the balance has been progressing, but its not there yet. In all the games I've played since the patch where Kharaa are winning, there comes a point where the Kharaa are going to start their final attack and a call is made for everyone with enough res to go Onos, (all) players with 75+ res are still asked to go Onos. It is better than it was where players were scolded for not going Onos, but it is still an issue. For example, this post:
<!--quoteo(post=1951797:date=Jul 15 2012, 06:58 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 15 2012, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The onos needs to be 75 res because he is practically autowin if he comes out and the marines don't have jetpack tech. That 75 pres cost is a pacing mechanism which means he comes out in a reasonable time. If you dumped that down to fade cost (50) then you could be seeing onos far too early and they'd destroy marines map control..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Onos is simply too powerful - unless JPs are on the scene. Adding Exos will only help the Marines, it won't make any other Kharaan lifeform more viable (at least not that I can foresee).
I agree with Nakorson that the Onos should cost less, but I also think he should get some Major nerfs on health and damage, and get major Buffs towards skills which promote team-play and support. Right now he is still an "Endgame" class - which the devs have said they want to avoid; I don't see how that's going to continue with the 75 res price tag. I'd like to see something akin to a "tank" in an mmo - being able to absorb large quantities of damage (when prepared for it), or boosting the defenses of players around them (again, when prepared for it). Currently the Onos is just massive damage at ground level along with an OP crowd control ability.
Or he has to become worth the res he costs again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah the Onos is really struggling against jpers atm. It becomes nearly impossible to kill a semi skilled jper.
I think it really depends on the skill of the teams. I have both dominated and been dominated on both sides. The best games are the close ones where neither seems to be doing well and finally one team has a waterloo and loses. I have only played public games myself.
My thoughts on each alien from my experience:
Skulk- Pretty good right now in early game. I can take all but the best players.
Gorge- Needs more armor or something. They die way too easy. I don't want battle gorges, I just want to be able to place my hydra's and not have to run.
Lerk- I don't like playing lerk anymore. Its just an annoyance for the marines, not a hindrance. I am not sure how I would change it but it needs something.
Fade-I think they might be a little op right now. Not too much. It seems to take the whole team to take a half decent fade.
Onos- Onos is not something you get unless the task requires it. Onos is not too good late game vs upgraded marines. Onos is a demolition tool. Get some onos and some bile bombing gorges too clear out a room.
Marines need the exosuite. That and hitreg and I think we will have a really good balanced games.
I hear that the competitive games are heavily alien sided. Do we have any competitive players here who could comment on that?