Map Clutter
1dominator1
Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
Am I the only to who it seems that the maps are overfilled with doodads that serve no gameplay purpose but to get in the way and inhibit speedy movement and complex manoeuvres? I am constantly getting snagged on the terrain, which seems to serve no purpose but to give the maps 'atmosphere' and get in the way. I feel obliged to point out that NS1 managed to create the former and yet retain clear hallways which allowed for speed and complexity of movement that seems unlikely to be paralleled in its successor.
This might not seem like a big problem to some but as far as I am concerned it severely impedes enjoyment of the movement (more so as aliens but can be annoying as marines as well), renders increasingly complex and drawn out engagements increasingly risky (this especially applies for lifeforms that depend on momentum such as lerk and skulk, it is all to easy to graze some doodad or an enemy [or even friendly] player and come to a complete halt resulting in hilarious death), and contributes greatly to frustration due to the seemingly unjust nature of deaths by getting stuck on scenery.
Perhaps some doodads can be made noncollidable so that players would just pass through them? In any case I think it is worth considering, getting snagged on crates and dying is never fun. As for anyone who suggests that it is a matter of skill; I do not think obstructions to movement should be added just so that players can show 'skill' in avoiding them. The enemy team provides both sufficient obstruction and chance to show skill imo, after all this is game is pvp not pve.
TL;DR : All the pretty sheiiit brah, it gets in the way!
This might not seem like a big problem to some but as far as I am concerned it severely impedes enjoyment of the movement (more so as aliens but can be annoying as marines as well), renders increasingly complex and drawn out engagements increasingly risky (this especially applies for lifeforms that depend on momentum such as lerk and skulk, it is all to easy to graze some doodad or an enemy [or even friendly] player and come to a complete halt resulting in hilarious death), and contributes greatly to frustration due to the seemingly unjust nature of deaths by getting stuck on scenery.
Perhaps some doodads can be made noncollidable so that players would just pass through them? In any case I think it is worth considering, getting snagged on crates and dying is never fun. As for anyone who suggests that it is a matter of skill; I do not think obstructions to movement should be added just so that players can show 'skill' in avoiding them. The enemy team provides both sufficient obstruction and chance to show skill imo, after all this is game is pvp not pve.
TL;DR : All the pretty sheiiit brah, it gets in the way!
Comments
Also it isn't this easy. Will you deactivate clipping of this things for better movement? Will you also deactivate clipping for bullets? Wouldn't that be unintuitive? It could look bad if a skulk is hanging (= clipping) into such a thing.
It wouldnt be too hard to make the map collision meshes a lot smoother, if we had something like playerclip texture from hl1 days, a surface that blocks player movement but not bullets/grenades/anything else. You can already do that with collision geometry group, but it wont allow bullets to pass through it so you still have to make it pretty complex so it doesnt interfere with the bullets too much.
Or just finally fix the prop collision meshes, but with the amount of props i dont really have high hopes for it to happen.
It improved over the beta though, changing collision geometry, etc. It's probably useful to report problematic areas to the mapper in charge.
The motivation is solid, but the execution is very bad. A player must, without ever having played the map, intuitively be able to tell what does and does not clip with himself. This is why NS1 worked so well, in that it had few if any props\models in its maps, but instead relied heavily on brush-work which has its own clipping that is 100% realiable and intuitive (a few cases of getting stuck in slopes notwithstanding).
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, they get in the way from time to time and this is annoying. They are needed for skulks so. They create places to hide, adding detail so you can blend in with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This wasn't a problem in NS1, so we probably should look at that as inspiration on creating hiding-places for skulks. Vents, corners, ceilings or very large obstructions (made out of brushwork) serviced the skulks well in NS1. The waist-high boxes, railings, wires and computer-consoles in NS2 however, not so much.
Again, keep the clipping-hints (both blocking and non-blocking) to an absolute minimum, as they do not reveal themselfs to players until they've actually tested them (at which point it's too late).
I do acknowledge there are clipping issues, but I wouldn't like to see maps become empty.
Also consider that the marines minimap often renders hiding futile, I cannot count the times Ive died as a skulk (or killed as a marine) while hiding in a corner because some marine saw a red blip in the corner of the room on his minimap. Hell, Ive even seen it spot skulks that are sneaking up behind me.
<!--quoteo(post=1950513:date=Jul 11 2012, 03:56 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 11 2012, 03:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main problem is that all of the prop collision meshes are either auto generated, or just made really badly. Resulting in lots of invisible walls you cant shoot through, and overly complex surfaces that block you in very random ways.
It wouldnt be too hard to make the map collision meshes a lot smoother, if we had something like playerclip texture from hl1 days, a surface that blocks player movement but not bullets/grenades/anything else. You can already do that with collision geometry group, but it wont allow bullets to pass through it so you still have to make it pretty complex so it doesnt interfere with the bullets too much.
Or just finally fix the prop collision meshes, but with the amount of props i dont really have high hopes for it to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ive noticed that the actual collision mesh will often extend a good distance beyond the model, making it too easy to start shooting too early (like when coming into flight control from comp lab and trying to knock a skulk off the RT. My bullets always get caught on the invisible edge of the wall).
<!--quoteo(post=1950516:date=Jul 11 2012, 04:13 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 11 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The motivation is solid, but the execution is very bad. A player must, without ever having played the map, intuitively be able to tell what does and does not clip with himself. This is why NS1 worked so well, in that it had few if any props\models in its maps, but instead relied heavily on brush-work which has its own clipping that is 100% realiable and intuitive (a few cases of getting stuck in slopes notwithstanding).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ns1 benefited from having a much smaller skulk model and a greater variation in lighting and walltextures throughout the maps (in many hive rooms the wall colour would match the skulks colouration and greatly help with camo)
Frankly I think making collision more of a slide, so you dont loose all your momentum after so much as grazing one of the numerous doodads or enemy players. would go a very long way to making things smooth and the environments easily manoeuvrable that and a decrease in the lag. Still, NS2 will never rival NS1s speed of gameplay but I believe that is intended, the sequel is meant to be more accessible (which NS1 certainly isnt for all but the most skilled).
Now that I think about it I think the core of the problem is with the collision system (which is simply exasperated by the maps), which in my experience is erratic, unpredictable and thoroughly unconducive to any sort of risky and fast movements. I am no programmer so cannot suggest any ways to improve it, but I certainly think it needs a very thorough look at before release, especially since much of this game revolves around melee combat.
To give an example of some of the problems, I often find myself sometimes phasing through opposing team members and sometimes not, grazing any surface causes a near complete stop for the lerk or fade, as mentioned meshes often extend beyond the model, I often find myself bouncing off enemies (and sometimes not) which while possibly realistic is terrible for melee oriented speedy gameplay. These are things off the top of my head but there might be others, feel free to point them out. Perhaps if we can form something comprehensive we can mail it off to the devs for them to look at.
There may be other fixes on the programming side that can be done as well, but I'm not as sure about what would be involved there,
--Cory
NS2 should use much simpler hulls for player-model collisions(but not bullets!). An RT is not this complex shape with legs sticking out, it is just a cylinder, you can slide against it and run circles around it all day without getting snagged. This pillar that looks vaguely like box, but with outcrops and stuff that may snag you, is really just a box. The details in this floor panel that stick in or out a few units are not really there, it's just a flat rectangle.