Punishing ARC spam through damage models

Heyman

Some groundwork for those who don't pay attention to numbers (these are pulled from the NS2 wiki):

<b>ARC Build Cost:</b> 20 Team Resources
<b>DamageType: </b> Structures Only
<b>Damage: </b> 900
<b>Delay: </b> 3 seconds

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<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>The intention here is to reduce consecutive hits from siege damage by a percentile within a specific timeframe.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b>For sampling purposes, we'll reduce the damage by 10% if an alien structure is hit within 2.5 seconds of the first time it took siege damage. I am not factoring in structure health in this example.</b>

This is the model based per hit:
<b><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->dmg(n) = 900*[1-0.1*(n-1)]

If n>10, dmg(n) = 90<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>

This is the model for total damage:
<b><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->totDmg(n) = 450*(2.1*n-0.1*n^2)

If n>10, totDmg(n) = totDmg(n-1) + 90<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ilX4F.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

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What this model does:


1. The model would introduce the concept of <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->diminishing returns<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>.
<ul><li>Additional ARCs would still deal additional damage, but would be less effective overall. In my sample, 10 ARCS beating down on a Hive would deal 4950 damage out of a possible 9000, reducing total effective damage by 45%. Opportunity cost would measure more favorably towards other alternatives each time the Marine Commander puts new ARCs into production.</li></ul>

2. The model <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->would reward micromanagement<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
<ul><li>Since it is on a <i>per structure basis</i>, the model <!--coloro:#708090--><span style="color:#708090"><!--/coloro--><b>would make ARC positioning in sieges crucial for dealing optimal damage.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Spacing targets would keep splash radii from overlapping, and maintain high effective damage per ARC.</li><li><!--coloro:#708090--><span style="color:#708090"><!--/coloro--><b>Allows for the damage model to be reset with proper timing.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Since there is a 0.5 second window between an ARC attack cooldown and the damage model reset, a Marine Commander with a good sense of timing would be able to space out ARC deployments to mitigate the effect of diminishing returns.</li></ul>

<b>tl;dr - With some proper math, we can change ARCs in such a way that they deal less damage when spammed, but reward a good commander when micromanaged properly.</b>

GORGEous

While a rather eloquent solution, I'm not sure if it's truly viable. It's incredibly unintuitive and they've explicitly denied unintuitive solutions to previous problems. (Think armor scaling from hives)

I think this is better than a hardcap, but less intuitive and less effective at mitigating arc spam than simply adding a 5-10s marine deploy timer.

Agiel

I like this idea a lot! For an explanation other than "nanobots" you could say that the damage is proportional to the air density around the target. After a blast a vortex is created which needs to be filled in before an ARC can do full damage again. This could even be represented visually in the game to make it more intuitive.

botchiball

I'm not understanding the point of this.. so if there is an arc train of 10, its not really any more effective than a train of 7? And several "trains" of 1 or 2 would be more effective (numerically) than a single train of 10? But.. why go to all this trouble? For the simple fact that normally a single target is picked and destroyed (not 5 targets), all this is going to do is slow down the killing of a target and annoy and confuse the marines firing off the ARCs.

Besides.. is the level of micro-management you're talking about really a good thing? Maybe in a true RTS like Starcraft where people really get off on self punishment - (people have died playing games to that extent) - but for me, I like a game where I can have fun. It should be a challenge, not a headache.

ScardyBob

I like this. Its a simple, yet clever way to nerf ARC spam. Though, I would hold off on putting it in until some of the major ARC bugs/comm interface issues are fixed. Comm micro, especially of NPC units, is quite rough right now because you have to fight the interface/use workarounds to get things to do what you want them too.

Also, he's not saying that a 10 ARC train will be less effective than a 7 ARC train, but that the added effectiveness of those three additional ARCs will be much less so than currently. For example:

Current multiple ARC damage (if all ARCs fire at once at the same target):
7 ARCs = 6300
10 ARCs = 9000
Damage added from 3 additional ARCs = 2700

Heyman's proposed multiple ARC damage (if all ARCs fire at once at the same target):
7 ARCs = 4410
10 ARCs = 4950
Damage added from 3 additional ARCs = 540

{GGs} Chicken

Seems like if you skip all the micro, all this would do is only delay the comm scanning one more time, which with an arc train is nothing. Also doesn't fix the core issue that aliens cannot take down both the arcs and the marine team at the same time beacuse the arcs can just roll in, deploy, and attack, while marines gl spam and shotty.

douchebagatron

Didn't someone mention an idea of upkeep? I think that'd be an interesting way of limiting ARCs, and it could be done in an intuitive and obvious way:

show current number of arcs at the top of the screen. for each one on the field, a percentage (also shown) of res is lost per res-tick. I hated it in warcraft 3 (mostly because I wanted to mass units), but it was a fairly obvious game mechanic and it seems like it would function here.

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1948007:date=Jun 30 2012, 10:26 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Jun 30 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems like if you skip all the micro, all this would do is only delay the comm scanning one more time, which with an arc train is nothing. Also doesn't fix the core issue that aliens cannot take down both the arcs and the marine team at the same time beacuse the arcs can just roll in, deploy, and attack, while marines gl spam and shotty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Bilebomb does a lot of both (destroys ARCs and eats marine armor, making it easier to assault both) and
2. If marines are defending the ARCs, why should it be easy for aliens to take down both?

I view the core ARC train problem as the marine comm could build and attack with enough ARCs that they could kill a hive <b>without</b> any marines defending the ARCs.

{GGs} Chicken

<!--quoteo(post=1948011:date=Jun 30 2012, 10:39 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 30 2012, 10:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Bilebomb does a lot of both (destroys ARCs and eats marine armor, making it easier to assault both) and
2. If marines are defending the ARCs, why should it be easy for aliens to take down both?

I view the core ARC train problem as the marine comm could build and attack with enough ARCs that they could kill a hive <b>without</b> any marines defending the ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Bile isn't that great when marines are GL spamming, die in a few seconds.

What I meant when I said aliens can't kill arcs and marines at the same time is mostly what your last sentence says. You can send an ARC train to one hive and 5 JP marines to another. Lose lose situation for aliens.

internetexplorer

The right way to punish ARC spam is to make them difficult to invest in, and difficult to protect when you are able to overinvest in them and choose to.
Mechanics like <b>supply caps</b> do this, whereas damage changes don't (unless you make them unreasonably punishing/unintuitive so nobody wants to use ARCs anymore, which is not a good idea)

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1948023:date=Jun 30 2012, 11:38 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Jun 30 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bile isn't that great when marines are GL spamming, die in a few seconds.

What I meant when I said aliens can't kill arcs and marines at the same time is mostly what your last sentence says. You can send an ARC train to one hive and 5 JP marines to another. Lose lose situation for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, I misunderstood then.

I will admit, that the current bilebomb isn't that great for killing ARC trains (though it still better than all the alternatives). The fastest you can kill an ARC with bilebomb is 16s, but that requires direct hits each time. I wouldn't mind seeing bilebomb damage increased (to be able to kill an ARC in 10s) or having Onos stomp disable ARCs again.