Hey guys, I realize that I am joining this conversation a bit late (4 pages in), but I just wanted to point out a couple things:
You seem to be arguing over a great many topics - most of which both sides agree aren't working. However, at the CORE, seems to be the following debate:
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Should a Comm/Khamm be penalized for using abilities, or encouraged to do so?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(Penalized = TRes) (Encouragement = Energy) (abilities = anything giving the team some sort of advantage, but is impermanent)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Further: By paying TRes, a Comm/Khamm is cutting into their building pool to use abilities -> short term help vs. long term strength. So the issue is: "Are you willing to gamble on your team's skill to beat the other Comm/Khamm, and can you rely on your troops to pull you through if you gamble too much?"
By paying Energy, a Comm/Khamm is given "Free" Energy to be used. Only by not using the Energy will the Comm/Khamm be wasting resources - so the issue is: "How good are you at using your abilities vs. the other Comm/Khamm?" With Energy, you cannot gamble too much as the Energy is "Free".
Also, please note that Energy is not free as many of you suggest, you must "spend" time to gain Energy.
There is another issue running around which I'd like to address, which is "wait until this system is balanced." And I must admit.. I'm baffled.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->How does one balance a 1 resource system?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
You can increase or decrease amounts, but that is only changing how much you are gambling on player ability. Cooldowns could be added, but then you would have all the penalties of TRes use with all the limitations of Energy use.. with, no benefit? Unless the TRes use is considered a benefit.. I guess it then becomes the first question again.
Personally, I want Energy back. I want to see Comm/Khamms pushed to their full potential, not held back by their own fears/dangled over a gambler's pit. Imo, Strayan said it best here: <!--quoteo(post=1938363:date=May 23 2012, 12:49 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 23 2012, 12:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Today someone explained this to me from a different angle - That was that energy provides the commander with a resource independent ability to make one of <b>three choices.</b> <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> 1 - Support the offense, by creating <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->drifters<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to use enzyme cloud 2 - Expand, by creating <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->cysts<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to spread infestation 3 - Tech, by using <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->mist<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed evolutions of lifeforms and upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
In theory, the Alien commander should be able to strike a balance between the three that suits play style and team strategy. For example, if the Aliens went for a triple-extractor turtle strategy, the commander may focus more on option <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3 <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->with some emphasis on <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, with little use of <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem I see is that Mist was unforgiving in its placement and had its usefulness gutted, and Enzyme is annoying as piss to use and too short for all the headache it requires. All that = Cyst spam.
Later in that topic, someone brings up the point that permanent structures should all be TRes based, while impermanent abilities should be all Energy based. I do like this concept (as it still allows Comm/Khamms to excel in their rolls without penalty), however I see the above trichotomy as being more important than permanent vs. impermanent.
There is also the concept of a single Energy Pool, which I'm thinking warrants further thoughts.
<!--quoteo(post=1950431:date=Jul 10 2012, 03:02 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 10 2012, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there are psychological studies done showing that a person getting something without having a choice in the matter will be more satisfied with that item than if they had picked it from amongst many. sometimes it really is better to have less options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
''Criticism Attempts to duplicate the paradox of choice in other studies have had mixed success. A meta-analysis incorporating research from 50 independent studies found no meaningful connection between choice and anxiety, but speculated that the variance in the studies left open the possibility that choice overload could be tied to certain highly specific and as of yet poorly understood pre-conditions.''
''Criticism Attempts to duplicate the paradox of choice in other studies have had mixed success. A meta-analysis incorporating research from 50 independent studies found no meaningful connection between choice and anxiety, but speculated that the variance in the studies left open the possibility that choice overload could be tied to certain highly specific and as of yet poorly understood pre-conditions.''
i like choice<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
quoting from wikipedia while not having read the sourced material is bad form. the article cited aggregated published and unpublished studies, and attempted to mash the results into a single analysis. the studies involved had different experimental procedures and focused on different criteria (some measured the probability of the subjects selecting an item, some of them used subjective satisfaction ratings from the subjects.). and plenty of the studies showed a positive correlation between having less choices and "satisfaction" - whatever that means.
Regardless, it's a moot point, because as i said before - the energy system was merely simulating t-res for abilities. allowing abilities to cost t-res makes it so that each team can attack the others' economies indirectly through the forcing of ability use, as opposed to merely directly through killing the structure
<!--quoteo(post=1950431:date=Jul 10 2012, 06:02 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 10 2012, 06:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->before, when meds and ammo were on the armory, it was simulated t-res cost: more armories = more medspam/ammospam, and it also required assigning armories to control groups. i prefer to have my obs and arcs on control groups instead of a bunch of armories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't understand.. how was the energy system "simulating TRes"? More armories are purchased anyway -> TRes cost of meds and ammo is on top of these additional armories (I've never seen two armories directly next to each other for the purpose of more spam).
Requiring of assigning armories to control groups, as well as keeping track of energy on various structures, are issues with the GUI - NOT the resources model.
I'm confused that meds and ammo and the like are now on tres. Wasn't the whole point of pres vs tres to separate the things that are team size dependent from those that are not, allowing the game to balance properly regardless of team size? With everything on tres whatever balance point you set, you're going to have extremes of over-res and under-res as you deviate from that point. This was the problem with NS1, and what we're supposed to be avoiding with NS2.
Are they on tres just to prevent the whole 'comm swapping' thing where as the comm ran out of pres he'd switch out with another player that did have some to spare, so as to continue liberal use of medspam?
If so, there is a much better solution: 'the commander' has a pres and tres pool. Whoever is currently comm, has access to that pool. When a player becomes comm, his own pres is banked, to be returned to him when he exits the comm station. Then, have the comm's pres income be a percentage of his team's total pres income, and move all team size dependent things (like meds, ammo, nano, etc.) over to pres.
I massively agree with botchiball's post. In my mind the commanders ability to support his team should be a scalable system over different game sizes and, if there must be drawbacks, the drawbacks should not negatively affect the teams overall upgrade paths (potentially dicouraging support and developing a mindset of ignoring medcalls and such in larger games).
People often bring up the issue of shield spam or med spam as one of the reasons that there should be penalties for overuse of abilities but I believe that the issue has more to do with the abilities themselves and the time at which they can be used. If Nano tech (shield/construct) becomes a researchable upgrade at the armory for say 20 Tres it no longer is an essential ability for commanders to use, rather it becomes an alternative for interesting early game strategy. Commanders with better micro could go for the nano tech early, players that are less inclined to keep up with the front line troops could stick with the upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1950485:date=Jul 11 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jul 11 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm confused that meds and ammo and the like are now on tres. Wasn't the whole point of pres vs tres to separate the things that are team size dependent from those that are not, allowing the game to balance properly regardless of team size?
Are they on tres just to prevent the whole 'comm swapping' thing where as the comm ran out of pres he'd switch out with another player that did have some to spare, so as to continue liberal use of medspam?
If so, there is a much better solution: 'the commander' has a pres and tres pool. Whoever is currently comm, has access to that pool. When a player becomes comm, his own pres is banked, to be returned to him when he exits the comm station. Then, have the comm's pres income be a percentage of his team's total pres income, and move all team size dependent things (like meds, ammo, nano, etc.) over to pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I don't disagree with this idea, what it essentially is is a single pool energy system by another name. If the devs are truly against the return of energy this would be the next best thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1950487:date=Jul 10 2012, 11:58 PM:name=rhez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhez @ Jul 10 2012, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although I don't disagree with this idea, what it essentially is is a single pool energy system by another name. If the devs are truly against the return of energy this would be the next best thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its different in a couple of important bits: it scales with the number of players (like giving the comm a budget of one med per player per minute, number is probably way off but that's the concept), and it scales based on your controlled res nodes (rewarding the team for holding the territory), and its uncapped (so you can bank pres indefinitely).
Energy based systems wouldn't do that, at least not as people are used to them being implemented (structures have a capped energy pool which refills at set rate over time, or just one global pool that is fixed).
<!--quoteo(post=1950488:date=Jul 11 2012, 12:07 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jul 11 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its different in a couple of important bits: it scales with the number of players (like giving the comm a budget of one med per player per minute, number is probably way off but that's the concept), and it scales based on your controlled res nodes (rewarding the team for holding the territory), and its uncapped (so you can bank pres indefinitely).
Energy based systems wouldn't do that, at least not as people are used to them being implemented (structures have a capped energy pool which refills at set rate over time, or just one global pool that is fixed).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What you're describing isn't PRes, its a new third CRes (Commander Res) which already has some different properties than what everyone is used to -> can you be a little more clear about what all it would be/how it would work compared to the recent Energy or current TRes systems?
I'm hesitant to resurrect an old topic of discussion, but RFK scaled with team sizes... getting TRes per fight would be a counterweight to having to spend TRes per fight on medpacks. Not sure what the alien equivalent would be though, so giving them TResFK might be... inadvisable.
Has it been discussed about having a global energy pool, rather than per structure? Solves the issue of structure spam, looking around to find a structure, and penalizing the commander for being engaged with the battle.
If its small, but regenerates quickly when not used for X seconds, then it becomes a tactical, per-encounter pool. You have to tactically decide to scan, medpack, nanoshield within this 1 minute engagement. Spending too much will leave your team vulnerable if the hostile team keeps the pressure up.
<!--quoteo(post=1950559:date=Jul 11 2012, 07:46 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 11 2012, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm hesitant to resurrect an old topic of discussion, but RFK scaled with team sizes... getting TRes per fight would be a counterweight to having to spend TRes per fight on medpacks. Not sure what the alien equivalent would be though, so giving them TResFK might be... inadvisable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How can I look up old discussions on RFK when the words are all so short (less than 3 letters)? Made fail attempts at searching these: RFK res for kill resource kill "resource kill" gain resources kill "gain resources kill"
And some more, not finding any : (. Maybe you got a link to it we could see?
<!--quoteo(post=1950566:date=Jul 11 2012, 08:02 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 11 2012, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has it been discussed about having a global energy pool, rather than per structure? Solves the issue of structure spam, looking around to find a structure, and penalizing the commander for being engaged with the battle.
If its small, but regenerates quickly when not used for X seconds, then it becomes a tactical, per-encounter pool. You have to tactically decide to scan, medpack, nanoshield within this 1 minute engagement. Spending too much will leave your team vulnerable if the hostile team keeps the pressure up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Each structure or ability could also have its own cooldown, I think it could work pretty well. Still gonna have to look around for structures though - but once you find them you could just use it as you already know your energy level. Again, not finding a structure is a UI issue, not a resource issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1950570:date=Jul 11 2012, 07:07 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jul 11 2012, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Each structure or ability could also have its own cooldown, I think it could work pretty well. Still gonna have to look around for structures though - but once you find them you could just use it as you already know your energy level. Again, not finding a structure is a UI issue, not a resource issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking the energy pool with appear on the top of the screen, by your tres and pres. Usage of any energy would stop its regen.
<!--quoteo(post=1950566:date=Jul 11 2012, 12:02 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 11 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has it been discussed about having a global energy pool, rather than per structure? Solves the issue of structure spam, looking around to find a structure, and penalizing the commander for being engaged with the battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's the unification of energy pools that made people react negatively to energy. Having many things tied to energy (mist, cysts, drifters, ...) was supposed to increase strategic depth by creating mutually exclusive choices. But it also made energy look like a real resource instead of a simple cooldown mechanism, and having a separated full blown resource pool in addition from tres and pres didn't made much sense, specially when this resource is extracted by a giant, unkillable rt (the hive).
<!--quoteo(post=1950572:date=Jul 11 2012, 07:20 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 11 2012, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that's the unification of energy pools that made people react negatively to energy. Having many things tied to energy (mist, cysts, drifters, ...) was supposed to increase strategic depth by creating mutually exclusive choices. But it also made energy look like a real resource instead of a simple cooldown mechanism, and having a separated full blown resource pool in addition from tres and pres didn't made much sense, specially when this resource is extracted by a giant, unkillable rt (the hive).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the energy pool is small, but regenerates rapidly when not in use for say 20 seconds... then I see it as a interesting cooldown mechanism.
I agree the large pools we had before made it into a resource. You could forget about specific pools, and then use them loads (like any resource). Having a small pool means when you are not using it, you are actively penalizing the team. However the regeneration penalty means that wastefully using energy abilities can be a grave tactical error.
It opens up new tactics - such as putting pressure on a marine team until they are out of energy, then rushing the comm chair since they don't have the energy to beacon anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1950576:date=Jul 11 2012, 02:29 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 11 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having a small pool means when you are not using it, you are actively penalizing the team. However the regeneration penalty means that wastefully using energy abilities can be a grave tactical error.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is the problem. If you have too many mechanics that penalize the whole team, because the commander doesn't use them / use them wrong isn't going to add fun. Having (semi-)mandatory task that you have to do as commander or being a bad com that will be raged about is not what we should aim for. <!--quoteo(post=1950576:date=Jul 11 2012, 02:29 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 11 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It opens up new tactics - such as putting pressure on a marine team until they are out of energy, then rushing the comm chair since they don't have the energy to beacon anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same can be said about abilities for T-Res. It opens up the tactic for actively decreasing the T-Res of the enemy team by attacking and forcing the com to use abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1950580:date=Jul 11 2012, 10:38 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 11 2012, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is the problem. If you have too many mechanics that penalize the whole team, because the commander doesn't use them / use them wrong isn't going to add fun. Having (semi-)mandatory task that you have to do as commander or being a bad com that will be raged about is not what we should aim for.
The same can be said about abilities for T-Res. It opens up the tactic for actively decreasing the T-Res of the enemy team by attacking and forcing the com to use abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you ever actually play comm Necro? Sure the commander role may be difficult at first but the task of supporting your team (medpacks, the occasional scan or nano shield) is nowhere near as tough as you seem to be making out. If anything I would like to see more tasks for the commander as at the moment it is lacking depth and the direction they're heading it's becoming less fun as the commander becomes more of a spectator.
I think this discussion has been quite thorough and it's time to hear what Flayra has to say. Personally I think the pro-energy camp has put in the hard yards, provided a lot of analysis and feedback. If by this stage Flayra is unconvinced then I don't see much point in spending more time on this issue, personally. I wouldn't be thrilled with the outcome but I've no intention of dweling on it any longer.
<!--quoteo(post=1950622:date=Jul 11 2012, 10:44 AM:name=rhez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhez @ Jul 11 2012, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you ever actually play comm Necro? Sure the commander role may be difficult at first but the task of supporting your team (medpacks, the occasional scan or nano shield) is nowhere near as tough as you seem to be making out. If anything I would like to see more tasks for the commander as at the moment it is lacking depth and the direction they're heading it's becoming less fun as the commander becomes more of a spectator.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed. When we had energy, marine comm was an insanely tense job with lots to do. Tres instead has made it far less demanding, since you have less resources to play with and conflicting priorities.
Alien commander has been getting better every build though, they keep adding new abilities but its still lacking front line abilities besides enzyme and cyst spam.
<!--quoteo(post=1950622:date=Jul 11 2012, 05:44 PM:name=rhez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhez @ Jul 11 2012, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you ever actually play comm Necro? Sure the commander role may be difficult at first but the task of supporting your team (medpacks, the occasional scan or nano shield) is nowhere near as tough as you seem to be making out. If anything I would like to see more tasks for the commander as at the moment it is lacking depth and the direction they're heading it's becoming less fun as the commander becomes more of a spectator.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course I do. And I use med packs and stuff but not as much as before. I consider this a good change. Because you can't simply support any fight. You actually have to think if the reward is high enough to push some T-Res into that fight.
Also I think you got me wrong. I'm not against more tasks as com. I'm against mandatory tasks as com. They are not fun, bringing in no new decisions and are a rage-source against newbie-coms. More options are good. But more "mandatory options" are no options.
I have written this numerous times now, but the same questions coming up again and again.
Comments
You seem to be arguing over a great many topics - most of which both sides agree aren't working. However, at the CORE, seems to be the following debate:
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Should a Comm/Khamm be penalized for using abilities, or encouraged to do so?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(Penalized = TRes)
(Encouragement = Energy)
(abilities = anything giving the team some sort of advantage, but is impermanent)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Further:
By paying TRes, a Comm/Khamm is cutting into their building pool to use abilities -> short term help vs. long term strength. So the issue is: "Are you willing to gamble on your team's skill to beat the other Comm/Khamm, and can you rely on your troops to pull you through if you gamble too much?"
By paying Energy, a Comm/Khamm is given "Free" Energy to be used. Only by not using the Energy will the Comm/Khamm be wasting resources - so the issue is: "How good are you at using your abilities vs. the other Comm/Khamm?" With Energy, you cannot gamble too much as the Energy is "Free".
Also, please note that Energy is not free as many of you suggest, you must "spend" time to gain Energy.
There is another issue running around which I'd like to address, which is "wait until this system is balanced." And I must admit.. I'm baffled.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->How does one balance a 1 resource system?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
You can increase or decrease amounts, but that is only changing how much you are gambling on player ability. Cooldowns could be added, but then you would have all the penalties of TRes use with all the limitations of Energy use.. with, no benefit? Unless the TRes use is considered a benefit.. I guess it then becomes the first question again.
Personally, I want Energy back. I want to see Comm/Khamms pushed to their full potential, not held back by their own fears/dangled over a gambler's pit.
Imo, Strayan said it best here:
<!--quoteo(post=1938363:date=May 23 2012, 12:49 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 23 2012, 12:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Today someone explained this to me from a different angle - That was that energy provides the commander with a resource independent ability to make one of <b>three choices.</b>
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
1 - Support the offense, by creating <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->drifters<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to use enzyme cloud
2 - Expand, by creating <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->cysts<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to spread infestation
3 - Tech, by using <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->mist<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed evolutions of lifeforms and upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
In theory, the Alien commander should be able to strike a balance between the three that suits play style and team strategy. For example, if the Aliens went for a triple-extractor turtle strategy, the commander may focus more on option <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3 <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->with some emphasis on <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, with little use of <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I see is that Mist was unforgiving in its placement and had its usefulness gutted, and Enzyme is annoying as piss to use and too short for all the headache it requires. All that = Cyst spam.
Later in that topic, someone brings up the point that permanent structures should all be TRes based, while impermanent abilities should be all Energy based. I do like this concept (as it still allows Comm/Khamms to excel in their rolls without penalty), however I see the above trichotomy as being more important than permanent vs. impermanent.
There is also the concept of a single Energy Pool, which I'm thinking warrants further thoughts.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice:_Why_More_Is_Less" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_o...hy_More_Is_Less</a>
''Criticism
Attempts to duplicate the paradox of choice in other studies have had mixed success. A meta-analysis incorporating research from 50 independent studies found no meaningful connection between choice and anxiety, but speculated that the variance in the studies left open the possibility that choice overload could be tied to certain highly specific and as of yet poorly understood pre-conditions.''
i like choice
''Criticism
Attempts to duplicate the paradox of choice in other studies have had mixed success. A meta-analysis incorporating research from 50 independent studies found no meaningful connection between choice and anxiety, but speculated that the variance in the studies left open the possibility that choice overload could be tied to certain highly specific and as of yet poorly understood pre-conditions.''
i like choice<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
quoting from wikipedia while not having read the sourced material is bad form. the article cited aggregated published and unpublished studies, and attempted to mash the results into a single analysis. the studies involved had different experimental procedures and focused on different criteria (some measured the probability of the subjects selecting an item, some of them used subjective satisfaction ratings from the subjects.). and plenty of the studies showed a positive correlation between having less choices and "satisfaction" - whatever that means.
Regardless, it's a moot point, because as i said before - the energy system was merely simulating t-res for abilities. allowing abilities to cost t-res makes it so that each team can attack the others' economies indirectly through the forcing of ability use, as opposed to merely directly through killing the structure
I don't understand.. how was the energy system "simulating TRes"? More armories are purchased anyway -> TRes cost of meds and ammo is on top of these additional armories (I've never seen two armories directly next to each other for the purpose of more spam).
Requiring of assigning armories to control groups, as well as keeping track of energy on various structures, are issues with the GUI - NOT the resources model.
Are they on tres just to prevent the whole 'comm swapping' thing where as the comm ran out of pres he'd switch out with another player that did have some to spare, so as to continue liberal use of medspam?
If so, there is a much better solution: 'the commander' has a pres and tres pool. Whoever is currently comm, has access to that pool. When a player becomes comm, his own pres is banked, to be returned to him when he exits the comm station. Then, have the comm's pres income be a percentage of his team's total pres income, and move all team size dependent things (like meds, ammo, nano, etc.) over to pres.
People often bring up the issue of shield spam or med spam as one of the reasons that there should be penalties for overuse of abilities but I believe that the issue has more to do with the abilities themselves and the time at which they can be used. If Nano tech (shield/construct) becomes a researchable upgrade at the armory for say 20 Tres it no longer is an essential ability for commanders to use, rather it becomes an alternative for interesting early game strategy. Commanders with better micro could go for the nano tech early, players that are less inclined to keep up with the front line troops could stick with the upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1950485:date=Jul 11 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jul 11 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm confused that meds and ammo and the like are now on tres. Wasn't the whole point of pres vs tres to separate the things that are team size dependent from those that are not, allowing the game to balance properly regardless of team size?
Are they on tres just to prevent the whole 'comm swapping' thing where as the comm ran out of pres he'd switch out with another player that did have some to spare, so as to continue liberal use of medspam?
If so, there is a much better solution: 'the commander' has a pres and tres pool. Whoever is currently comm, has access to that pool. When a player becomes comm, his own pres is banked, to be returned to him when he exits the comm station. Then, have the comm's pres income be a percentage of his team's total pres income, and move all team size dependent things (like meds, ammo, nano, etc.) over to pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I don't disagree with this idea, what it essentially is is a single pool energy system by another name. If the devs are truly against the return of energy this would be the next best thing.
Its different in a couple of important bits: it scales with the number of players (like giving the comm a budget of one med per player per minute, number is probably way off but that's the concept), and it scales based on your controlled res nodes (rewarding the team for holding the territory), and its uncapped (so you can bank pres indefinitely).
Energy based systems wouldn't do that, at least not as people are used to them being implemented (structures have a capped energy pool which refills at set rate over time, or just one global pool that is fixed).
Energy based systems wouldn't do that, at least not as people are used to them being implemented (structures have a capped energy pool which refills at set rate over time, or just one global pool that is fixed).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you're describing isn't PRes, its a new third CRes (Commander Res) which already has some different properties than what everyone is used to -> can you be a little more clear about what all it would be/how it would work compared to the recent Energy or current TRes systems?
Not sure what the alien equivalent would be though, so giving them TResFK might be... inadvisable.
If its small, but regenerates quickly when not used for X seconds, then it becomes a tactical, per-encounter pool. You have to tactically decide to scan, medpack, nanoshield within this 1 minute engagement. Spending too much will leave your team vulnerable if the hostile team keeps the pressure up.
Not sure what the alien equivalent would be though, so giving them TResFK might be... inadvisable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can I look up old discussions on RFK when the words are all so short (less than 3 letters)? Made fail attempts at searching these:
RFK
res for kill
resource kill
"resource kill"
gain resources kill
"gain resources kill"
And some more, not finding any : (. Maybe you got a link to it we could see?
If its small, but regenerates quickly when not used for X seconds, then it becomes a tactical, per-encounter pool. You have to tactically decide to scan, medpack, nanoshield within this 1 minute engagement. Spending too much will leave your team vulnerable if the hostile team keeps the pressure up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Each structure or ability could also have its own cooldown, I think it could work pretty well. Still gonna have to look around for structures though - but once you find them you could just use it as you already know your energy level. Again, not finding a structure is a UI issue, not a resource issue.
I was thinking the energy pool with appear on the top of the screen, by your tres and pres. Usage of any energy would stop its regen.
I think that's the unification of energy pools that made people react negatively to energy. Having many things tied to energy (mist, cysts, drifters, ...) was supposed to increase strategic depth by creating mutually exclusive choices. But it also made energy look like a real resource instead of a simple cooldown mechanism, and having a separated full blown resource pool in addition from tres and pres didn't made much sense, specially when this resource is extracted by a giant, unkillable rt (the hive).
If the energy pool is small, but regenerates rapidly when not in use for say 20 seconds... then I see it as a interesting cooldown mechanism.
I agree the large pools we had before made it into a resource. You could forget about specific pools, and then use them loads (like any resource). Having a small pool means when you are not using it, you are actively penalizing the team. However the regeneration penalty means that wastefully using energy abilities can be a grave tactical error.
It opens up new tactics - such as putting pressure on a marine team until they are out of energy, then rushing the comm chair since they don't have the energy to beacon anymore.
That is the problem. If you have too many mechanics that penalize the whole team, because the commander doesn't use them / use them wrong isn't going to add fun. Having (semi-)mandatory task that you have to do as commander or being a bad com that will be raged about is not what we should aim for.
<!--quoteo(post=1950576:date=Jul 11 2012, 02:29 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 11 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It opens up new tactics - such as putting pressure on a marine team until they are out of energy, then rushing the comm chair since they don't have the energy to beacon anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same can be said about abilities for T-Res. It opens up the tactic for actively decreasing the T-Res of the enemy team by attacking and forcing the com to use abilities.
The same can be said about abilities for T-Res. It opens up the tactic for actively decreasing the T-Res of the enemy team by attacking and forcing the com to use abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you ever actually play comm Necro? Sure the commander role may be difficult at first but the task of supporting your team (medpacks, the occasional scan or nano shield) is nowhere near as tough as you seem to be making out. If anything I would like to see more tasks for the commander as at the moment it is lacking depth and the direction they're heading it's becoming less fun as the commander becomes more of a spectator.
Also are the Dev Q&As coming back?
Indeed. When we had energy, marine comm was an insanely tense job with lots to do. Tres instead has made it far less demanding, since you have less resources to play with and conflicting priorities.
Alien commander has been getting better every build though, they keep adding new abilities but its still lacking front line abilities besides enzyme and cyst spam.
Of course I do. And I use med packs and stuff but not as much as before. I consider this a good change. Because you can't simply support any fight. You actually have to think if the reward is high enough to push some T-Res into that fight.
Also I think you got me wrong. I'm not against more tasks as com. I'm against mandatory tasks as com. They are not fun, bringing in no new decisions and are a rage-source against newbie-coms. More options are good. But more "mandatory options" are no options.
I have written this numerous times now, but the same questions coming up again and again.