having marines deploy it is a decent solution, but it doesn't really make sense that the cannon would be able to be remotely operated by the comm but helpless unless a marine is there to unpack it. Whereas it *does* make sense that it has enough battery power to move around, pack and unpack, but firing the sonic cannon requires extra juice that can only be provided by having the power on, or the arcs to be powered by a power pack. it also makes fighting power nodes a more necessary mechanic as aliens can delay stealth sieges by making sure to take out the power/keep the power down in non-critical rooms. it also serves as a limiter to arc trains - you can have 20 arcs, but if you can't power them, they're worthless. and it makes it so that defending/attacking the power node in a room under siege can become a minigame unto itself. i just think it adds more to the game than giving marines another thing to press E at.
Simply put, this is how games flow when players abuse the current mechanics. A boring progression of hard counters. 1) Aliens spam free hydras to lock marines in. 2) Marines get grenade launchers 3) Aliens whip spam 4) Marines get ARCs
Efficiently taking care of whip walls and other static trash just around the corner is why ARCs are required to shoot through walls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can agree that a mechanic that allows to breach too heavily entrenched positions and end stalemates is good for the game. But not to a mechanic that allows to destroy a hive from 3 rooms away. It's boring for the marines, and frustrating for the aliens.
The mechanic of having a fully mobile commander controlled attack unit is problematic no matter how you look at it. You will always have lost a battle when fighting against arcs, because even if you win the fight VS the players, the Arcs will have already killed your hive. That's why players need to be involved somehow in the arcs' ability to deal damage.
The power node idea is interesting but ATM the power nodes add very little to gameplay. If they took as long as they did to build in the earlier beta (about as long as an RT) then maybe killing the power would be worth doing. But as it stands aliens gain very little from knocking out the power because a single marine can rebuild it in like, what, 3-5 seconds? and that's without nanoconstruct. The only time you ever see it done is when you onos rush the power in turtled marine rooms and then hope you win in the 15 seconds that the power is out. But again if they don't change(nerf) nano-construct this would be an equally useless tactic.
<!--quoteo(post=1945675:date=Jun 21 2012, 11:04 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 21 2012, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the problem. You can't just shoot down whip/crag farms. You need arcs to do this. If you could shoot down the whip/crag farms then you wouldn't need arcs and all of this would be moot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You misunderstand. I said you'd be shooting down the whip farms WITH the arcs in direct line of sight.
That's why they'd still be useful and necessary even if they didn't shoot through walls.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An ARC in a direct LoS of the hive-room would get tore down within moments (think fades blinking back and forth working on it, lerks spiking from afar et cetera).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, they wouldn't, unless you rush them in without destroying anything else along the way, and have no marines protecting them - And, even then, sometimes that works just by sheer numbers.
You're suppose to back the arcs up by marines and advance killing stuff along the way if they are line of sight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't stand in the line of fire, you'll die, this is why sieges are built behind a wall, not even in another room per se, just behind a wall so the aliens can't work on it as easily, and even then sieges get taken down all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't call it a siege, because it's not a siege. You aren't actually forced to hold the ground to set up vulnerable static siege devices.
You just roll up arcs outside of the retaliation of whips, giving the aliens no chance to slow down the arcs, having no fighting chance against them because they probably won't even be able to kill the arcs fast enough before the hive is dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1945725:date=Jun 21 2012, 10:18 PM:name=Rise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rise @ Jun 21 2012, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just roll up arcs outside of the retaliation of whips, giving the aliens no chance to slow down the arcs, having no fighting chance against them because they probably won't even be able to kill the arcs fast enough before the hive is dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Soooo in order to make LoS work, you want to make ARCs so strong, the moment they achieve LoS the hive is lost? Who the what now?
<!--quoteo(post=1945730:date=Jun 21 2012, 02:26 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jun 21 2012, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Soooo in order to make LoS work, you want to make ARCs so strong, the moment they achieve LoS the hive is lost? Who the what now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never said anything remotely like that. In what you quoted I was describing the current situation with arcs: Which is that you can roll up a hive killing train anywhere and start laying waste to the hive in a way that gives the aliens no chance to slow it down or retaliate. That situation is unacceptable. It doesn't even have the time delay associated with the NS1 way of holding and building up an area to conduct a siege from.
I said leave arcs as they are, except limit them to line of sight. I guarantee you they will still be powerful, the dynamic will just be different so that aliens have a fighting chance. Your defensive structures and whips would actually be able to take some of them out and slow them down before they can get within firing sight of the hive.
So they rush into the hive to get a LoS with the hive as fast as possible, basically ignoring as much in the hive-room as possible? Sorta like kamikaze ARCs? I'm really trying to get an idea how you envision this going down, but it's not easy. If you want them to simply grind their way to the hive, killing everything they encounter, ARCs will be useless as I stated earlier due to aliens simply working on them so much on the way there, they won't even get near the hive.
The best idea currently is still essentially the NS1-siege that you need to build (calling it deploy here) on-site. Remove the wheels from the ARC-model and just make it an NS1-siege again to be honest, cause the escort-mission to the hive-room I don't find particularly thrilling either.
<!--quoteo(post=1945896:date=Jun 22 2012, 10:29 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jun 22 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So they rush into the hive to get a LoS with the hive as fast as possible, basically ignoring as much in the hive-room as possible? Sorta like kamikaze ARCs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, that already happens right now - Kamikazi arc trains to the hive room - Except they have the benefit of not having to even encounter the alien defenses. They just set up outside and lay waste before the arcs can be killed.
Second, no, that was not what I was proposing would happen with LoS Arcs. The idea with LoS arcs would be that you break down the alien defensive structures guarding the way to the hive room, then enter the hive room with to let the arcs take down the hive while marines protect them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really trying to get an idea how you envision this going down, but it's not easy. If you want them to simply grind their way to the hive, killing everything they encounter, ARCs will be useless as I stated earlier due to aliens simply working on them so much on the way there, they won't even get near the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they wouldn't be useless.
Yes, they would be slowed down giving aliens more time to work on them - That's the entire point of the change. The problem with the current system is how quickly arcs can be set destroying a hive and the aliens have nothing they can really do about it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best idea currently is still essentially the NS1-siege that you need to build (calling it deploy here) on-site. Remove the wheels from the ARC-model and just make it an NS1-siege again to be honest, cause the escort-mission to the hive-room I don't find particularly thrilling either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Escorting arcs fits well with the marine style of moving as squads to hit specific areas as a group. I like it. It may not be the same dynamic but it's good in different ways.
This also helps make flamethrowers useful once they're able to clear infestation with them, allowing the commander to drop the necessary structures for the NS1 siege turrets.
+1 to marine deployment. and limit number wouldnt be a bad idea either because i think that the problem is that commander just have too much resources. remember that structures play a more important part in ns2. in ns1 aliens had just 3 per hive chambers (hidden cause marines shouldnt destroy them) and rarely had OCs you never had too much resources. now there are crags shades whips and hydras everywhere Gls arent enough sometimes.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1945509:date=Jun 21 2012, 03:29 AM:name=JimWest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JimWest @ Jun 21 2012, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The arks should be controlled by a marine directly, if you got 5 arcs, 5 Marines are missing on the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ARC, as a mini-tank that a marine can climb into and control?
Comments
Simply put, this is how games flow when players abuse the current mechanics. A boring progression of hard counters.
1) Aliens spam free hydras to lock marines in.
2) Marines get grenade launchers
3) Aliens whip spam
4) Marines get ARCs
Efficiently taking care of whip walls and other static trash just around the corner is why ARCs are required to shoot through walls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can agree that a mechanic that allows to breach too heavily entrenched positions and end stalemates is good for the game. But not to a mechanic that allows to destroy a hive from 3 rooms away. It's boring for the marines, and frustrating for the aliens.
The power node idea is interesting but ATM the power nodes add very little to gameplay. If they took as long as they did to build in the earlier beta (about as long as an RT) then maybe killing the power would be worth doing. But as it stands aliens gain very little from knocking out the power because a single marine can rebuild it in like, what, 3-5 seconds? and that's without nanoconstruct. The only time you ever see it done is when you onos rush the power in turtled marine rooms and then hope you win in the 15 seconds that the power is out. But again if they don't change(nerf) nano-construct this would be an equally useless tactic.
You misunderstand. I said you'd be shooting down the whip farms WITH the arcs in direct line of sight.
That's why they'd still be useful and necessary even if they didn't shoot through walls.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An ARC in a direct LoS of the hive-room would get tore down within moments (think fades blinking back and forth working on it, lerks spiking from afar et cetera).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they wouldn't, unless you rush them in without destroying anything else along the way, and have no marines protecting them - And, even then, sometimes that works just by sheer numbers.
You're suppose to back the arcs up by marines and advance killing stuff along the way if they are line of sight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't stand in the line of fire, you'll die, this is why sieges are built behind a wall, not even in another room per se, just behind a wall so the aliens can't work on it as easily, and even then sieges get taken down all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't call it a siege, because it's not a siege.
You aren't actually forced to hold the ground to set up vulnerable static siege devices.
You just roll up arcs outside of the retaliation of whips, giving the aliens no chance to slow down the arcs, having no fighting chance against them because they probably won't even be able to kill the arcs fast enough before the hive is dead.
Soooo in order to make LoS work, you want to make ARCs so strong, the moment they achieve LoS the hive is lost? Who the what now?
I never said anything remotely like that.
In what you quoted I was describing the current situation with arcs: Which is that you can roll up a hive killing train anywhere and start laying waste to the hive in a way that gives the aliens no chance to slow it down or retaliate. That situation is unacceptable. It doesn't even have the time delay associated with the NS1 way of holding and building up an area to conduct a siege from.
I said leave arcs as they are, except limit them to line of sight.
I guarantee you they will still be powerful, the dynamic will just be different so that aliens have a fighting chance.
Your defensive structures and whips would actually be able to take some of them out and slow them down before they can get within firing sight of the hive.
The best idea currently is still essentially the NS1-siege that you need to build (calling it deploy here) on-site. Remove the wheels from the ARC-model and just make it an NS1-siege again to be honest, cause the escort-mission to the hive-room I don't find particularly thrilling either.
First off, that already happens right now - Kamikazi arc trains to the hive room - Except they have the benefit of not having to even encounter the alien defenses. They just set up outside and lay waste before the arcs can be killed.
Second, no, that was not what I was proposing would happen with LoS Arcs.
The idea with LoS arcs would be that you break down the alien defensive structures guarding the way to the hive room, then enter the hive room with to let the arcs take down the hive while marines protect them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really trying to get an idea how you envision this going down, but it's not easy. If you want them to simply grind their way to the hive, killing everything they encounter, ARCs will be useless as I stated earlier due to aliens simply working on them so much on the way there, they won't even get near the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they wouldn't be useless.
Yes, they would be slowed down giving aliens more time to work on them - That's the entire point of the change.
The problem with the current system is how quickly arcs can be set destroying a hive and the aliens have nothing they can really do about it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best idea currently is still essentially the NS1-siege that you need to build (calling it deploy here) on-site. Remove the wheels from the ARC-model and just make it an NS1-siege again to be honest, cause the escort-mission to the hive-room I don't find particularly thrilling either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Escorting arcs fits well with the marine style of moving as squads to hit specific areas as a group. I like it.
It may not be the same dynamic but it's good in different ways.
This also helps make flamethrowers useful once they're able to clear infestation with them, allowing the commander to drop the necessary structures for the NS1 siege turrets.
remember that structures play a more important part in ns2. in ns1 aliens had just 3 per hive chambers (hidden cause marines shouldnt destroy them) and rarely had OCs you never had too much resources. now there are crags shades whips and hydras everywhere Gls arent enough sometimes.
if you got 5 arcs, 5 Marines are missing on the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ARC, as a mini-tank that a marine can climb into and control?