Support Resource
OutlawDr
Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members
Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Now with scales</div>Lets go on a short trip through history.
One of the main reasons NS2 is different from NS1 is due to resource scaling. We all know res didn't scale in NS1, and the whole system was redesigned in NS2 to accommodate various players counts from 6v6 to 16v16. However throughout the beta, res has had problems and its never been able to scale it properly...especially for support abilities for individual players (such as medpacks). Initially commanders' pres was used and this would scale with multiple commanders. The basic idea was with more players there would be more commanders for support, but unfortunately multiple comms didn't create good gameplay experience.. and it was ditched. Then, for a long time, we used a combination of pres and energy, and eventually just using energy. This of course didn't scale, but energy was also unintuitive, disconnected and didn't provide interesting tradeoffs. So now we just use tres for almost everything the commander does. The positives for this are that it provides tradeoffs, is intuitive and feels integrated with the rest of the game. However it doesn't scale, especially for support abilities. Right now we face the problem of overflowing res (probably to ensure players have enough res for support abilities). Obviously it needs tweaking. However we'll continuously have res problems no matter how much its tweaked. If you balance it for one player count, its going to leave too much or too little res for support in another player count...and so on ad nauseam.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>TLDR START HERE</b><u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
</u>Give the commander the ability to spend Tres in order to get another type of resource that scales with player count. Call it support resource (sres). This resource is used to purchase things that scale up with player count (mostly support abilities ...such as medpacks). At the command center, the comm presses a button that converts..lets say 5 pres to X sres. X is determined by the number of players currently on the team. So if there are 6 players, the commander receives 6 sres. 16 players, 16 sres. Again, this resource can only be used to purchases items that scale with player count. Why is this better? Because now we don't have to worry about having too little or too much res for support abilities depending on player count. Sure, a comm will have more sres with 16 players, but he'll also have more players to support. He'll have more medpacks and nano shields, but also more players that need them. It still provides a tradeoff, since tres is required to purchase sres, and so its still intuitive and connected to the game. Well thats it.
One of the main reasons NS2 is different from NS1 is due to resource scaling. We all know res didn't scale in NS1, and the whole system was redesigned in NS2 to accommodate various players counts from 6v6 to 16v16. However throughout the beta, res has had problems and its never been able to scale it properly...especially for support abilities for individual players (such as medpacks). Initially commanders' pres was used and this would scale with multiple commanders. The basic idea was with more players there would be more commanders for support, but unfortunately multiple comms didn't create good gameplay experience.. and it was ditched. Then, for a long time, we used a combination of pres and energy, and eventually just using energy. This of course didn't scale, but energy was also unintuitive, disconnected and didn't provide interesting tradeoffs. So now we just use tres for almost everything the commander does. The positives for this are that it provides tradeoffs, is intuitive and feels integrated with the rest of the game. However it doesn't scale, especially for support abilities. Right now we face the problem of overflowing res (probably to ensure players have enough res for support abilities). Obviously it needs tweaking. However we'll continuously have res problems no matter how much its tweaked. If you balance it for one player count, its going to leave too much or too little res for support in another player count...and so on ad nauseam.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>TLDR START HERE</b><u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
</u>Give the commander the ability to spend Tres in order to get another type of resource that scales with player count. Call it support resource (sres). This resource is used to purchase things that scale up with player count (mostly support abilities ...such as medpacks). At the command center, the comm presses a button that converts..lets say 5 pres to X sres. X is determined by the number of players currently on the team. So if there are 6 players, the commander receives 6 sres. 16 players, 16 sres. Again, this resource can only be used to purchases items that scale with player count. Why is this better? Because now we don't have to worry about having too little or too much res for support abilities depending on player count. Sure, a comm will have more sres with 16 players, but he'll also have more players to support. He'll have more medpacks and nano shields, but also more players that need them. It still provides a tradeoff, since tres is required to purchase sres, and so its still intuitive and connected to the game. Well thats it.
Comments
1 / 16players = .0625 res..which leads to
"Get your calculator out newbie commander and support us."
The use of support abilities like nano or medpacks should never be mandatory to have a balanced game. They provide an advantage in exchange of slower teching/expanding. If you have 7 players or less in your team, you can spend more on support abilities while maintaining a decent tech speed. With 16+ players you only can support in a few deciding battles while maintaining the same tech speed or you will tech slower, but support (and win) more battles. Besides that you are right, that it does not scale, I can't see a problem in this case. It just alters the game experience but this is normal and I can't see a problem in this.
The only thing to look out for is, that the aliens need an equivalent amount of support abilities, so that they got the same trade off decisions.
Game balance will be affected by medpacks and nanoshiled (unlessthey get rid of them completely), and simply turning a blind eye to their scaling problems won't solve anything.
With a normal res income med and nano will not be spammed anymore. There will be a real trade off.
Thus it's not important if you can support 2 or 3 fights in 5min or only 1.
Also nano is to strong of an effect right now. It's like a "this marine wins" button. So when I write: "The use of support abilities like nano or medpacks should never be mandatory to have a balanced game." Does that not mean, that it should have no impact on the battle. But it should be counterable with skill of the alien.
Maybe it's me, but I fail to see where the missing scaling on support abilities will be a problem with more players. Could you please explain this further? Are you sure it will shift balance and why?
Medpack scaling might become an issue, and if it's the case solutions like the one you proposed or simply scaling the medpack cost could be envisaged, but I don't think it's a problem yet (server perf...).
<b>Nanoshield</b> is problematic because 1) it's redundant with medpack (same function) and 2) it's stackable with medpack making the combination imba. It's not uncommon to see a nanoshielded marine take out 3-4 skulk with rifle, pistol and axe.
<!--quoteo(post=1944544:date=Jun 18 2012, 11:19 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jun 18 2012, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have played this build. The res income is too damn high. It's obvious and will get fixed. Could we stop talking about this?
With a normal res income med and nano will not be spammed anymore. There will be a real trade off.
Thus it's not important if you can support 2 or 3 fights in 5min or only 1.
Also nano is to strong of an effect right now. It's like a "this marine wins" button. So when I write: "The use of support abilities like nano or medpacks should never be mandatory to have a balanced game." Does that not mean, that it should have no impact on the battle. But it should be counterable with skill of the alien.
Maybe it's me, but I fail to see where the missing scaling on support abilities will be a problem with more players. Could you please explain this further? Are you sure it will shift balance and why?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It changes the pace of the game..which has too many unintended consequences. Something that might be fine in one instance, is broken in another. Aliens could better off when support starved, while marines are better when there is support spam. Skulks are too good against basic marine? Add in medpack spam and it doesn't seem that way as much. We see these kind of problems every patch, and they will continue to persist until we begin to address the underlying problem. When scaled, we can start to balance with a particular pace in mind for all games. Sure it won't be absolutely perfect scaling, but its more manageable. I still think the devs should focus on a particular player count, and simply keep an eye on the others. With scaled support this actually becomes much easier, since changes to the game with the primary player count in mind , will have less drastic, unintended consequences in the others.