<!--quoteo(post=1942140:date=Jun 7 2012, 06:45 PM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jun 7 2012, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kinda funny how it is (almost) the complete opposite of NS1 now. Marines can buy weapons by themselves but aliens now require the comm to get their weapons/abilitys<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1942160:date=Jun 7 2012, 10:40 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Jun 7 2012, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they didn't then there's something wrong with that comm. :P
Umbra will change that along with (hopefully) improved spikes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Spikes are already improved I believe. It feels easier to kill with them when I do get them. I do think I will love the new lerk though. It was my favorite class to play when I first got the game and currently the gorge is second fav only to another onos and me with camo sitting in a room we know the marines will go in then boxing them in by blocking off both exits and laughing at them >:)
I have a question for IronHorse, hope i'm not getting off topic. You said that the Lerk is a harassing class, and i couldn't agree more with you. So what was wrong with the implementation of the bilebomb? Which in my opinion suited the class perfectly: Flying in, dropping a bb and flying out (Even though i was one of the people who didn't like its removal from the gorge, but got to love it as soon as the damage on it was adjusted). Not enough damage on its own to kill a structure in a couple of blows, but enough for the marines to pay attention and hopefully dispatch a marine or two to weld it. Charlie mentioned that one of the reasons it was moved back to the gorge was because it was "unintuitive" the way you dropped the bb. This is just my opinion, but after a while you get used to the bb, it forced a learning curve which always feels rewarding for the player.
I'm asking you because I see you defending every fix with in depth analysis. Would you say that some things get changed with well intentions but for the wrong reasons?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1942140:date=Jun 8 2012, 12:45 AM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jun 8 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kinda funny how it is (almost) the complete opposite of NS1 now. Marines can buy weapons by themselves but aliens now require the comm to get their weapons/abilitys<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, not entirely. The comm has to research the technology now and the player has to spend p-res to add it to their load-out. It's consistent for both factions now.
Sort of like in NS1 how the gorge had to build the hive to unlock tier-2 abilities or build and mc to unlock its abilities.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1942168:date=Jun 7 2012, 11:34 PM:name=CabooseFox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CabooseFox @ Jun 7 2012, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spikes are already improved I believe. It feels easier to kill with them when I do get them. I do think I will love the new lerk though. It was my favorite class to play when I first got the game and currently the gorge is second fav only to another onos and me with camo sitting in a room we know the marines will go in then boxing them in by blocking off both exits and laughing at them >:)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The spikes do too much to armor and seem to be a bit out of character for the Lerk who is now a medium-close range class instead of a long-medium range. The spectrum has completely shifted for the Lerk in terms of play and hopefully we can get Spike to where it can satisfy both the medium and close range.
<!--quoteo(post=1942228:date=Jun 8 2012, 06:00 AM:name=cake.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cake. @ Jun 8 2012, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a question for IronHorse, hope i'm not getting off topic. You said that the Lerk is a harassing class, and i couldn't agree more with you. So what was wrong with the implementation of the bilebomb? Which in my opinion suited the class perfectly: Flying in, dropping a bb and flying out (Even though i was one of the people who didn't like its removal from the gorge, but got to love it as soon as the damage on it was adjusted). Not enough damage on its own to kill a structure in a couple of blows, but enough for the marines to pay attention and hopefully dispatch a marine or two to weld it. Charlie mentioned that one of the reasons it was moved back to the gorge was because it was "unintuitive" the way you dropped the bb. This is just my opinion, but after a while you get used to the bb, it forced a learning curve which always feels rewarding for the player.
I'm asking you because I see you defending every fix with in depth analysis. Would you say that some things get changed with well intentions but for the wrong reasons?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THe reason it was moved back to the gorge is obvious. It never worked.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1942228:date=Jun 8 2012, 06:00 AM:name=cake.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cake. @ Jun 8 2012, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a question for IronHorse, hope i'm not getting off topic. You said that the Lerk is a harassing class, and i couldn't agree more with you. So what was wrong with the implementation of the bilebomb? Which in my opinion suited the class perfectly: Flying in, dropping a bb and flying out (Even though i was one of the people who didn't like its removal from the gorge, but got to love it as soon as the damage on it was adjusted). Not enough damage on its own to kill a structure in a couple of blows, but enough for the marines to pay attention and hopefully dispatch a marine or two to weld it. Charlie mentioned that one of the reasons it was moved back to the gorge was because it was "unintuitive" the way you dropped the bb. This is just my opinion, but after a while you get used to the bb, it forced a learning curve which always feels rewarding for the player.
I'm asking you because I see you defending every fix with in depth analysis. Would you say that some things get changed with well intentions but for the wrong reasons?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey cake! Hard to be offtopic when the post starts that way :-P But yea I love answering questions, though some might be from my point of view.
Before i answer what was wrong, i should go down my own opinions sequentially: I at first was extremely weary of the change to lerk getting the BB, considering what a nightmare it would be to balance the fastest moving class as a siege unit, and then my worries were somewhat justified for a build or two as we worked on getting the numbers just right. (not useless, and not OP) <i>But once everything was working, I was loving it.</i> Although this change in design, brought light to an issue: low tickrate endgame/performance made it very difficult for any marine to track and kill the lerk(s) that were swooping in, destroying bases. So changes were made to slow the lerk by a good amount as well as some smaller stuff like energy use, hp etc. (despite my protesting hehe) Around this time the "Gorge fiasco" was occurring with 3 separate 10 page threads of people loathing the changes to gorge, from nothing to do, less importance, less fun etc etc.
It was then that the change was announced internally,<i> much to my surprise</i>. (I was sure we were going to just work through and adjust it) So, while its hard to defend this one given the back and forth changes, and the fact that i am not inside Charlie's head, i would say that the "intuitive" aspect was not the reason for the change - referring to how the gorge "vomits" things, has a large belly, etc. It was a very small percent of why. The reason is that it was not working because the "fastest lifeform" was quickly having to become a slow one, and a weaker one etc because, whether due to low performance or low skill, <i>marines couldn't track and kill the unit that was ending the game.</i>
In retrospect, i'm still glad we tried it, and got it to mostly work - but in the end it just worked better on a slow lifeform that needed to be protected to succeed, was track-able, and needed some importance/love anyways. Was the call made entirely due to low performance, which may in fact be fixed down the road? ehhh.. hard to say.. i think it simply highlighted the potential for the issue, instead. It was working previously with the gorge, save for some nasty vent BB sniping, but after X amount of iterations, changes over the course of months... it still wasn't working as well for the lerk.
Also, while I got more love for the lerk than any class (i share this sentiment with my PT lead, Sabahell) I personally feel that BB didn't really fit the role of "Harasser",<b> given that it was annihilating bases and winning rounds</b>. He much more belongs in the sporing/poisoning/annoying-the-hell-out-of-you-and-slowing-you-down category.
<i>My single and only concern/desire for the lerk currently:</i><b> That his focus should be put more into it's ability to survive an encounter/escape a room alive, than it is to incur damage upon the enemy</b>. Sure killing the marines in the room will ensure it's survival.. but he's not a killer, he's a harasser... and shouldn't be a one time use for 30 pres. Thats my viewpoint, though.
Does that answer your question?
edit: "Would you say that some things get changed with well intentions but for the wrong reasons?" More like, great ideas sometimes only ever remain great in theory, but this doesn't mean you can always pre-emptively judge or tell for sure how it will work out until you try it. Lastly: there's no shame in trying things - even if they fail - its how you find out what works. (thinks of the many many NS1 patches..)
<!--quoteo(post=1942340:date=Jun 8 2012, 06:39 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 8 2012, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(Beginning of awesome post...)
<i>My single and only concern/desire for the lerk currently:</i><b> That his focus should be put more into it's ability to survive an encounter/escape a room alive, than it is to incur damage upon the enemy</b>. Sure killing the marines in the room will ensure it's survival.. but he's not a killer, he's a harasser... and shouldn't be a one time use for 30 pres. Thats my viewpoint, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1!!!
I would like to point out that I think UWE has really nailed this class in principle, and with the right balance I expect the class to work wonderfully. I'm anxious to see how Lerk bite/armour has shaped up in B210.
I'm genuinely curious. Did you guys try out faster lerk (like before lerk speed nerfs) instead of simply more hp/armour?
Agree that the focus should be the ability to survive and escape so im wondering why the speed wasn't increased instead. I'd rather get in and get out fast to avoid damage as befits harassing instead of having to rely on tanking stuff o.0
If you want the unit to be a harasser, lower the armor and re-buff the speed. The current lerk just allows people to be lazy and play poorly and still do well with it. Make the lerk require more awareness and movement then it does now, not just flying into marines in a straight line then flying out. If you make the lerk too survivable then it becomes a killing machine in good players hands.
I would also say that a small energy cost per flap would go a long distance in fixing some of the lerks issues.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1942529:date=Jun 9 2012, 08:28 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 9 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agree that the focus should be the ability to survive and escape so im wondering why the speed wasn't increased instead. I'd rather get in and get out fast to avoid damage as befits harassing instead of having to rely on tanking stuff o.0<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Completely agree with you guys, and i believe the short answer is <i>performance</i>. Expect people like Sabahell and myself to be calling for an increase in speed once performance goes up. Currently its too difficult for most players to track it at high speeds with low fps and low tickrate. Besides.. playing a faster lerk is FUN! :-D
Comments
I see what you did there. :D
Umbra will change that along with (hopefully) improved spikes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spikes are already improved I believe. It feels easier to kill with them when I do get them. I do think I will love the new lerk though. It was my favorite class to play when I first got the game and currently the gorge is second fav only to another onos and me with camo sitting in a room we know the marines will go in then boxing them in by blocking off both exits and laughing at them >:)
I'm asking you because I see you defending every fix with in depth analysis. Would you say that some things get changed with well intentions but for the wrong reasons?
Well, not entirely. The comm has to research the technology now and the player has to spend p-res to add it to their load-out. It's consistent for both factions now.
Sort of like in NS1 how the gorge had to build the hive to unlock tier-2 abilities or build and mc to unlock its abilities.
The spikes do too much to armor and seem to be a bit out of character for the Lerk who is now a medium-close range class instead of a long-medium range. The spectrum has completely shifted for the Lerk in terms of play and hopefully we can get Spike to where it can satisfy both the medium and close range.
I'm asking you because I see you defending every fix with in depth analysis. Would you say that some things get changed with well intentions but for the wrong reasons?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THe reason it was moved back to the gorge is obvious. It never worked.
Theres your in-depth analysis.
I'm asking you because I see you defending every fix with in depth analysis. Would you say that some things get changed with well intentions but for the wrong reasons?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey cake!
Hard to be offtopic when the post starts that way :-P But yea I love answering questions, though some might be from my point of view.
Before i answer what was wrong, i should go down my own opinions sequentially: I at first was extremely weary of the change to lerk getting the BB, considering what a nightmare it would be to balance the fastest moving class as a siege unit, and then my worries were somewhat justified for a build or two as we worked on getting the numbers just right. (not useless, and not OP)
<i>But once everything was working, I was loving it.</i>
Although this change in design, brought light to an issue: low tickrate endgame/performance made it very difficult for any marine to track and kill the lerk(s) that were swooping in, destroying bases. So changes were made to slow the lerk by a good amount as well as some smaller stuff like energy use, hp etc. (despite my protesting hehe) Around this time the "Gorge fiasco" was occurring with 3 separate 10 page threads of people loathing the changes to gorge, from nothing to do, less importance, less fun etc etc.
It was then that the change was announced internally,<i> much to my surprise</i>. (I was sure we were going to just work through and adjust it)
So, while its hard to defend this one given the back and forth changes, and the fact that i am not inside Charlie's head, i would say that the "intuitive" aspect was not the reason for the change - referring to how the gorge "vomits" things, has a large belly, etc. It was a very small percent of why.
The reason is that it was not working because the "fastest lifeform" was quickly having to become a slow one, and a weaker one etc because, whether due to low performance or low skill, <i>marines couldn't track and kill the unit that was ending the game.</i>
In retrospect, i'm still glad we tried it, and got it to mostly work - but in the end it just worked better on a slow lifeform that needed to be protected to succeed, was track-able, and needed some importance/love anyways. Was the call made entirely due to low performance, which may in fact be fixed down the road? ehhh.. hard to say.. i think it simply highlighted the potential for the issue, instead. It was working previously with the gorge, save for some nasty vent BB sniping, but after X amount of iterations, changes over the course of months... it still wasn't working as well for the lerk.
Also, while I got more love for the lerk than any class (i share this sentiment with my PT lead, Sabahell) I personally feel that BB didn't really fit the role of "Harasser",<b> given that it was annihilating bases and winning rounds</b>. He much more belongs in the sporing/poisoning/annoying-the-hell-out-of-you-and-slowing-you-down category.
<i>My single and only concern/desire for the lerk currently:</i><b> That his focus should be put more into it's ability to survive an encounter/escape a room alive, than it is to incur damage upon the enemy</b>. Sure killing the marines in the room will ensure it's survival.. but he's not a killer, he's a harasser... and shouldn't be a one time use for 30 pres. Thats my viewpoint, though.
Does that answer your question?
edit: "Would you say that some things get changed with well intentions but for the wrong reasons?" More like, great ideas sometimes only ever remain great in theory, but this doesn't mean you can always pre-emptively judge or tell for sure how it will work out until you try it. Lastly: there's no shame in trying things - even if they fail - its how you find out what works. (thinks of the many many NS1 patches..)
<i>My single and only concern/desire for the lerk currently:</i><b> That his focus should be put more into it's ability to survive an encounter/escape a room alive, than it is to incur damage upon the enemy</b>. Sure killing the marines in the room will ensure it's survival.. but he's not a killer, he's a harasser... and shouldn't be a one time use for 30 pres. Thats my viewpoint, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1!!!
I would like to point out that I think UWE has really nailed this class in principle, and with the right balance I expect the class to work wonderfully. I'm anxious to see how Lerk bite/armour has shaped up in B210.
Agree that the focus should be the ability to survive and escape so im wondering why the speed wasn't increased instead. I'd rather get in and get out fast to avoid damage as befits harassing instead of having to rely on tanking stuff o.0
I would also say that a small energy cost per flap would go a long distance in fixing some of the lerks issues.
Completely agree with you guys, and i believe the short answer is <i>performance</i>.
Expect people like Sabahell and myself to be calling for an increase in speed once performance goes up.
Currently its too difficult for most players to track it at high speeds with low fps and low tickrate.
Besides.. playing a faster lerk is FUN! :-D