Carapace Removal
botchiball
Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15810Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15810Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Always first choice isn't a choice</div><!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->The problem is this: Marines upgrade damage and armor over time, Kharaa unlock abilities over time; but Carapace is not an ability, it is upgraded armor.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->In further explanation<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: Carapace is so powerful in keeping players alive, that everyone uses it (or should be). Keeping yourself alive to be able to keep fighting is the most important thing in the game - can't kill someone if you're dead - and so it makes sense that Carapace is the first choice in any serious game. Every other evolution option for Kharaa requires strategy or skill, Carapace requires nothing - it simply is.
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Solution: <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Get rid of Carapace.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I know, sacrilege right? But think about it: being the first upgrade, the Kharaa have it for the entire game except for the first two minutes anyway. There are those extremely rare circumstances where a marine is able to sneak into base and destroy a Carapace Shell, but this rarely happens and is almost always replaced in moments. By not being forced to pick Carapace at the beginning, it would open the game up to a much more broad play style for the entire Kharaan team, and would be more interesting as a marine fighting this multi-faced force. Destroying a Carapace Shell at the end of the game does help win the game for the Marines, but its usually just icing on the cake at that point (the Kharaa are already beaten).
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Supplement Solutions: What to do in Carapace's wake.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I would like to see some sort of progression of armor for Kharaa, in that thought - additional Hives could provide more armor like-levels of Carapace akin to NS1. Passively mind you, so that an additional Hive would mean more effectiveness for the entire team - more survivability. This may be too much incentive as expanding to a new hive would be very lucrative, but some sort of empowered Kharaan response vs. Marine's increased power seems reasonable. Please note that with Carapace always being the first upgrade, we don't have a progression now.
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Abilities to replace Carapace (only one of them):<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->Redemption<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: Not the best of skills, I especially don't like that it is random, but it is an ability vs. simply armor. For non-NS players, Redemption would watch your health, and if you dropped to too low a point there was a chance you would teleport back to the nearest hive; sometimes it worked for you and sometimes it didn't.
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->Clog Armor<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: This upgrade would make it so you could only receive so much damage in a single blast (similar to a Clog) - would be a definite response to Shotguns, Grenades, and Mines - but would do nothing vs. LMG, Flamethrower, or turrets. Obvious trade-off and reason to choose it.
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->Momentum<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: This upgrade would increase the "Mass" of the player, reducing knockback and disorienting effects from Marine attacks (like the rifle-butt, grenade stun, or celerity speed drop). It would also allow a Kharaan player to 'barrel through' Marines - knocking them back or out of the way as the lifeform moves through. More of a physics ability, but could provide some interesting interactions. Please note that this wouldn't speed players up, they would still need to build up speed on their own (or with celerity) for this to take effect.
The various suggestions in the "wake" of Carapace are less important than the core idea of killing it in the first place.
Any thoughts or further suggestions?
A similar suggestion: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118002&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=118002&hl=</a>
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->In further explanation<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: Carapace is so powerful in keeping players alive, that everyone uses it (or should be). Keeping yourself alive to be able to keep fighting is the most important thing in the game - can't kill someone if you're dead - and so it makes sense that Carapace is the first choice in any serious game. Every other evolution option for Kharaa requires strategy or skill, Carapace requires nothing - it simply is.
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Solution: <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Get rid of Carapace.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I know, sacrilege right? But think about it: being the first upgrade, the Kharaa have it for the entire game except for the first two minutes anyway. There are those extremely rare circumstances where a marine is able to sneak into base and destroy a Carapace Shell, but this rarely happens and is almost always replaced in moments. By not being forced to pick Carapace at the beginning, it would open the game up to a much more broad play style for the entire Kharaan team, and would be more interesting as a marine fighting this multi-faced force. Destroying a Carapace Shell at the end of the game does help win the game for the Marines, but its usually just icing on the cake at that point (the Kharaa are already beaten).
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Supplement Solutions: What to do in Carapace's wake.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I would like to see some sort of progression of armor for Kharaa, in that thought - additional Hives could provide more armor like-levels of Carapace akin to NS1. Passively mind you, so that an additional Hive would mean more effectiveness for the entire team - more survivability. This may be too much incentive as expanding to a new hive would be very lucrative, but some sort of empowered Kharaan response vs. Marine's increased power seems reasonable. Please note that with Carapace always being the first upgrade, we don't have a progression now.
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Abilities to replace Carapace (only one of them):<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->Redemption<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: Not the best of skills, I especially don't like that it is random, but it is an ability vs. simply armor. For non-NS players, Redemption would watch your health, and if you dropped to too low a point there was a chance you would teleport back to the nearest hive; sometimes it worked for you and sometimes it didn't.
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->Clog Armor<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: This upgrade would make it so you could only receive so much damage in a single blast (similar to a Clog) - would be a definite response to Shotguns, Grenades, and Mines - but would do nothing vs. LMG, Flamethrower, or turrets. Obvious trade-off and reason to choose it.
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->Momentum<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: This upgrade would increase the "Mass" of the player, reducing knockback and disorienting effects from Marine attacks (like the rifle-butt, grenade stun, or celerity speed drop). It would also allow a Kharaan player to 'barrel through' Marines - knocking them back or out of the way as the lifeform moves through. More of a physics ability, but could provide some interesting interactions. Please note that this wouldn't speed players up, they would still need to build up speed on their own (or with celerity) for this to take effect.
The various suggestions in the "wake" of Carapace are less important than the core idea of killing it in the first place.
Any thoughts or further suggestions?
A similar suggestion: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118002&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=118002&hl=</a>
Comments
I'm beginning to think there should be a trade-off between weapon and armor upgrades and their effects in the game world. For example, perhaps marine armor increases, like Carapace, should not necessarily be automatic when researched: you could be able to select them from the arms lab before heading out of the base. My thinking is that an increase in armor should result in a decrease in movement speed, jumping height, and jet pack maneuverability. So there's an advantage in staying with light armor versus going to heavy armor.
Similarly, there should be a trade off when getting a heavier weapon: increased recoil, or a reduced rate of fire, in exchange for the increased damage.
I think putting these mechanics in would result in less mandatory need for carapace: though similarly, I think taking carapace should result in a decreased movement speed and jumping range.
if you even get to lvl 3 upgrade weapon and armore you still die fast by most life forms and need hole group to kill onos that now also can run faster then a train to get away.
Not fair Alien got everything already.
Marines missing half of there upgrades and grenade launcher with no crosshair..... epic fail.
As per celerity, I think it is at a good place but it needs to gain some skill depth. Currently you can just wall ride and still maintain your momentum. It needs to be locked to certain movement methods like gliding for lerks, stampede for onos, and slide for gorge. It can stay the way it is for Skulks, I'm satisfied with it.
Give Alien Kham a new structure called "Mutation Chamber".
Let the Kham upgrade the Aliens' damage + health/armor from the mutation chamber.
Aliens lack scaling, they are exactly the same as they are from start to finish. Mind boggling that its still like this.
[Sorry if I parroted something already written in the OP, just restating it myself]
Give Alien Kham a new structure called "Mutation Chamber".
Let the Kham upgrade the Aliens' damage + health/armor from the mutation chamber.
Aliens lack scaling, they are exactly the same as they are from start to finish. Mind boggling that its still like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not suggesting that Kharaa be more like Marines, I'm suggesting the opposite. The problem with Carapace is that it is a strait upgrade to all lifeform's armor - it keeps everything alive better and doesn't take any skill to use at all. It is also already the same as the Marine armor upgrade, and seeing as how it is 99.9% selected as the first upgrade - I'm suggesting to get rid of it.
I do think the Kharaa need more scalability to their health/armor, but I don't think it should continue to (not) function as it does.
QFT
I believe carapace fade dies to half a clip of fire from a 3/3 LMG marine. A lot of the lifeforms and upgrades for aliens are too strong at first appearance and too weak in the late game when confronted by 3/3 marines (and soon to be exo miniguns). Unless their game design intention is to have the tier 3 alien abilities be active counters to marine tech and have the aliens themselves remain fragile.
I really think they need to remove carapace and make it an upgrade from the hive, having it scale up as you get more hives. All of the other alien upgrades are active/dynamic playstyle modifiers, Carapace is simply a static survivability upgrade.
Maybe a light Umbra could replace it. Sort of ability that you activate yourself that consume your energy but protect against 25% of the bullets. Every idea are good here, because I really think Carapace doesn't add anything, it's a requirement to have.
This is one thing everyone can agree on.
Aliens are going back to their roots in NS1.
Decent early game, completely outclassed late game.
its just what people prever to have, its not a must to have carapace and if you think you do then you never tried the other ones, also silence and stealth is very handy when used right, I got 7.1 surround headset, I hear skulks comming precicely form a direction before I see them, but silence skulk I cant hear them and with out scanning or observetory they can easly just attack me with out even noticed they where near by while I was focusing on making a RT.
its all about how you use the upgrades, non of them are mandatory, its just what people think is more usefull to them and let carapace and regeneration be the most easiest passive upgrades possible to use.
It should have downsides and it should be become more effective as the game progresses.
Does anyone renember the Shell 1-2-3 upgrade thing? Something like that, except redisgned. For example, carapace could become stronger as carapace shells grow more mature (which would also reward marines killing carapace shell). So cara shell gets a really long maturation period that makes it effective later on. In order to balance this for the late game, it could mature faster later on with certain coditions met (eg, x tier 2 upgrades research) to compensate for the time difference (so carapace is a viable choice later on).
So basically, you'll start at 5 extra armor or so as skulk and by 8 minutes or so you hit the full 20 extra armor for example. If you drop the shell later in the game, it may only take 4 or 2 minutes to mature depending on your tech level making it a viable option (which requires planning though)
It should have downsides and it should be become more effective as the game progresses.
Does anyone renember the Shell 1-2-3 upgrade thing? Something like that, except redisgned. For example, carapace could become stronger as carapace shells grow more mature (which would also reward marines killing carapace shell). So cara shell gets a really long maturation period that makes it effective later on. In order to balance this for the late game, it could mature faster later on with certain coditions met (eg, x tier 2 upgrades research) to compensate for the time difference (so carapace is a viable choice later on).
So basically, you'll start at 5 extra armor or so as skulk and by 8 minutes or so you hit the full 20 extra armor for example. If you drop the shell later in the game, it may only take 4 or 2 minutes to mature depending on your tech level making it a viable option (which requires planning though)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point the OP is making is not that Kharaa need more armor over time, its that Carapace as an upgrade requires no skill to use and has no trade off. It is simply an upgrade you take which makes you harder to kill.
Your suggestion here is interesting, but I think shifting this effect over to the hives would be better suited. A mature hive would provide a level of increased armor, two mature hives would provide a two levels of increased armor, and so on. Then replace the defensive ability of "Carapace" with something that requires skill to use - as others have pointed out, this would both reduce the frequency of first Crag Hives as well as give Kharaa more strength as the game goes on if they are winning, or less if they are losing.
I do think that it would give hives a little too much of a 'buff' - capturing a new hive location would be the most important of all things.. even resources. But then, I don't know if that's so terrible.
I'm not saying that I think Carapace needs to be lowered, in fact I think the effect of armor overall is too weak late game.. however that is not the issue. The issue is that Carapace does not fit the same roll as the other Kharaan upgrades - ability vs. flat stat boost. As suggested above, I think Carapace being placed on the hives (i.e. the more hives, the more armor, the more survivability) would work better.
The reason that it matters which evolution is first available is because 6 minutes is a rough estimate and assumes every thing is going well, not to mention every first 6 minutes being the same every game is rather boring (for Kharaa, Khamm, and Marines).
Also notice how all the other abilities require some semblance of skill to be used, Carapace requires nothing - it is in fact the same thing as marine armor upgrades - flat armor boost.
Totally agree on Carapace, but I think Regen is working as it should.
For one, its a fairly standard upgrade to get (which I'm counting as a positive, not a negative); and for two, it requires skill to use - in a sense, which I will explain. Granted that Regen does simply activate without any input on the user's side, that's a given. However, Regen will not engage while the user is taking damage -> this means that for an unintelligent player to simply run head first into battle, the ability will not activate. For a player who understands Regen's function, they can run into battle and then retreat to a hiding place while their Regen activates; which causes the Marines to have to think about stretching themselves thin to get that one Kharaa, or to stay strong and wait for a bigger push. It also allows multiple Kharaa to "tag-team" or "tap-out" versus a large group of marines - and by working together, two players can add up to more.
These are only a couple of the many possibilities which Regen brings to the plate. Carapace, on the other hand, <u>only</u> brings survivability - nothing else. It simply does not fit with the other Kharaan upgrades.
Momentum sounds abusable and annoying for the marine team.
Redemption is indeed too random.
Suggestions to make Carapace slow the player down don't sound fun either.
The one thing I do think rings true is that more emphasis needs to be put on how powerful the aliens are per hive and into the late game.
The two problems with both Play tested function current ns2 / ns1
Currently it's hive upgraded but still passive it is a strait upgrade good early game, crap end game passive ability same as marines. But it still handy if you losing down to one hive. Might allow to turn the tables.
Ns1 tied to hives and or amount of chambers, yeah ok not so good early game. Can help with first push, depending on marine tech choices. Great late game if kharaa are wining. But if kharaa are at any point ninjaed down to one hive one chamber. Your doomed.
Making it hive dependable or chamber dependable is a bad choice. Leaving it as it is with out scalability bad choice. Leaving it with out a player skill factor that's debatable.
Not saying my ideas are right but a few more options.
1- regen doesn't activate till out of combat. Why should carapace be active all the time. Caracapce should turn on once combat becomes active. Either via 1 second after you bite, or 1 second after you take damage. Effect and should happen, if marine sneaks up on alien and pistol whips he has no cara and dies, alien should of been more aware of surrounding. He could of chomped air turned on off alien vison to activate it right before encounter.
2- similar to a res for kill or feeding frenzy. More kills better armor, cara up grade gives lvl one, after one kill, lvl 2 after three kills lvl 3. As kharaa alien kills more marines the result of victory has battle hardened him.
3- the longer a kharaa stands still his armor hardens, skulk runs into interesection gets above door, holds in position his armor hardens lvl 1....lvl 2.. Marine was faster than he thought, battle with lvl 2 armor carapace slowly counts back down ten seconds per lvl even if he won the fight but it took him 30 seconds he took little to no damage his armor would of been dropping mid combat. A great boost for the start of said Engadgment.
Again this time he is faster than the marine gets into position, hold full lvl three armor. Takes out the marines easy. Their lmgs bounce off him. Maybe it not based on holding still maybe it's based on time out of combat.
Shades need to be changed also, but that's a different topic. They need to be tweaked so we see the effective sensory networks of old. As a viable option as a choice one kharaa tech.
We're a sensory chamber network could line a whole corridor a tsa solider could run half the map, hear his buddy's get taken out behind him to realize he's now deep behind enemy lines, trapped in a corridor with kharaa structures all around, and every alien knows exsactly were he is. As com drops a scan on him and his horror becomes visible.
With some tweaking to shades plus the ability to move structures through infestation. Shade, Shift, crag would be a game I'd like to see be a viable option. For kharaa, shifts cloaking infestation would be a start.
The advantage of marines not knowing they are on infestation that the battle that's now taking place is on infestation would be handy. But needs it own thread
I meant for all pellets to be considered a single attack per creature -> a single shotgun blast is never going to hit the a single creature a different times, it happens all at once. The bit about the "static survivability upgrade" is true, in fact it is always that - however, it at least has a drawback of being better vs. some weapons but worse vs. others; even late game it would do nothing vs. LMGs, Miniguns, Flamers.
<!--quoteo(post=1943820:date=Jun 16 2012, 10:09 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Jun 16 2012, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Suggestions to make Carapace slow the player down don't sound fun either.
The one thing I do think rings true is that more emphasis needs to be put on how powerful the aliens are per hive and into the late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed (even though it happened) and Agreed (even though it is even less now).
<!--quoteo(post=1943830:date=Jun 16 2012, 10:48 AM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NEX9 @ Jun 16 2012, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1- regen doesn't activate till out of combat. Why should carapace be active all the time. Caracapce should turn on once combat becomes active. Either via 1 second after you bite, or 1 second after you take damage. Effect and should happen, if marine sneaks up on alien and pistol whips he has no cara and dies, alien should of been more aware of surrounding. He could of chomped air turned on off alien vison to activate it right before encounter.
2- similar to a res for kill or feeding frenzy. More kills better armor, cara up grade gives lvl one, after one kill, lvl 2 after three kills lvl 3. As kharaa alien kills more marines the result of victory has battle hardened him.
3- the longer a kharaa stands still his armor hardens, skulk runs into interesection gets above door, holds in position his armor hardens lvl 1....lvl 2.. Marine was faster than he thought, battle with lvl 2 armor carapace slowly counts back down ten seconds per lvl even if he won the fight but it took him 30 seconds he took little to no damage his armor would of been dropping mid combat. A great boost for the start of said Engadgment.
Again this time he is faster than the marine gets into position, hold full lvl three armor. Takes out the marines easy. Their lmgs bounce off him. Maybe it not based on holding still maybe it's based on time out of combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some interesting concepts Nex9, though I'm a little confused by them.
1 - seems counter-intuitive, how is this information given to the player? Whats to stop players from just running around biting all the time? How does this require/promote skill?
2 - Was done before (in NS2) where an ability (called Fury I think) provided health and armor whenever you made a kill. For some reason it was too powerful and was taken out from what I heard.
3 - This one I don't agree with at all, it promotes stagnation - making it so Kharaan players don't want to attack and Marines don't want to attack. Even the 'out of combat' idea would promote players to run away and 'build up' their armor again.