<!--quoteo(post=1940713:date=May 31 2012, 10:00 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 31 2012, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just make it identical to the NS1 shotgun and you are good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I totally agree with this line, it contradicts just about everything else you said. The NS1 shotgun fired at about the same speed, and had a much much smaller spread than the current shotgun.
<!--quoteo(post=1940718:date=May 31 2012, 10:39 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ May 31 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I totally agree with this line, it contradicts just about everything else you said. The NS1 shotgun fired at about the same speed, and had a much much smaller spread than the current shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Naw dude go load up NS1. Join the bad clan server and ask for a shotty. It shoots very noticeably faster. Also the spread is pretty wide but still more narrow than the current shotgun prolly can't really say. The shotgun was only effective at close range in NS1 yet I find myself killing all types of lifeforms at substantial distances in NS2.
It's really easy to miss most of you pellets even at point blank range... this is a problem with the shotgun right now.
I think we're getting lost in uninteresting technical questions. It doesn't really matter how the spread or the damage falloff are computed.
What matters is what happens when you shoot a skulk at close range. Should you be able to one shot him reliably ? At which range (expressed in meaningful gameplay units like bite range or entities size) ? Is it the case now in game or not ?
Is the shotgun better than the lmg ?
Define some clear game-play goals, and just tweak the balance parameters until they are reached, easy enough.
We could even do all this theoretically, we already computed the damage falloff due to spread here : <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115786&view=findpost&p=1893401" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1893401</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1940756:date=Jun 1 2012, 04:11 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 1 2012, 04:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think we're getting lost in uninteresting technical questions. It doesn't really matter how the spread or the damage falloff are computed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Technical questions are what are the problem with the shotgun.
NS2 has a cone based spread... turn cheats on and type trace b then shoot the shotgun. It originates from the eyes of the marine when fired.
I personally think the easy fix is to remove the damage dropoff, and just add an absolute range where the shotgun then does 0 damage, like NS1. From there the spread/damage/num of pellets can be tweaked for further balance. Having the largerish spread and damage falloff kinda double nerfs the shotgun.
<!--quoteo(post=1940771:date=Jun 1 2012, 05:03 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 1 2012, 05:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 has a cone based spread... turn cheats on and type trace b then shoot the shotgun. It originates from the eyes of the marine when fired.
I personally think the easy fix is to remove the damage dropoff, and just add an absolute range where the shotgun then does 0 damage, like NS1. From there the spread/damage/num of pellets can be tweaked for further balance. Having the largerish spread and damage falloff kinda double nerfs the shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah.. I did this and it seems like the cone is originating slightly behind your players view. I remember testing this earlier when I thought the shotgun had a firedelay (Well it does in low performance). I remember the shots originate from like the back of your skull or something. At least they did then. It's hard to tell without someone else to spectate.. I still think that might have an effect on it's reliability but it's impossible to know without testing. I think the pellets need to originate in front of your players view slightly.
There have been some changes made to the shotgun for the next patch. It's damage type has been changed to normal instead of light, the damage per pellet has been changed and the variable damage was removed, where the closer you are, the more damage you do. There may still be further adjustments made to the cone spread if necessary. Just incremental changes to get the weapon to the place where it feels right.
<!--quoteo(post=1940833:date=Jun 1 2012, 12:00 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 1 2012, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There have been some changes made to the shotgun for the next patch. It's damage type has been changed to normal instead of light, the damage per pellet has been changed and the variable damage was removed, where the closer you are, the more damage you do. There may still be further adjustments made to the cone spread if necessary. Just incremental changes to get the weapon to the place where it feels right.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1940833:date=Jun 1 2012, 06:00 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 1 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There have been some changes made to the shotgun for the next patch. It's damage type has been changed to normal instead of light, the damage per pellet has been changed and the variable damage was removed, where the closer you are, the more damage you do. There may still be further adjustments made to the cone spread if necessary. Just incremental changes to get the weapon to the place where it feels right.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasn't the variable damage already pretty much removed in build 208?
<!--quoteo(post=1940833:date=Jun 1 2012, 11:00 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 1 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There have been some changes made to the shotgun for the next patch. It's damage type has been changed to normal instead of light, the damage per pellet has been changed and the variable damage was removed, where the closer you are, the more damage you do. There may still be further adjustments made to the cone spread if necessary. Just incremental changes to get the weapon to the place where it feels right.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds cool, I'll probably hold off playing until 210 rolls around. Thanks for continuing to try different ways to make it feel right, though!
<!--quoteo(post=1940833:date=Jun 1 2012, 11:00 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 1 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There have been some changes made to the shotgun for the next patch. It's damage type has been changed to normal instead of light, the damage per pellet has been changed and the variable damage was removed, where the closer you are, the more damage you do. There may still be further adjustments made to the cone spread if necessary. Just incremental changes to get the weapon to the place where it feels right.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha i can already hear it.. "sick shotgun OP" "why make all other weapons useless, shotgun is like sniper with shotgun spread and rocket damage"
<!--quoteo(post=1940756:date=Jun 1 2012, 11:11 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 1 2012, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think we're getting lost in uninteresting technical questions. It doesn't really matter how the spread or the damage falloff are computed.
...
We could even do all this theoretically, we already computed the damage falloff due to spread here : <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115786&view=findpost&p=1893401" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1893401</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I had forgot how much interesting things we did with the spikes :)
Still got the view rotation in the back of my head... Really want to do it still, but got so put of that anything we tried just got messed up. The rotation obviously works for models, so why couldn't we make it work for view and inputs...
Because the SG-spread discussion has enough opinions voiced already, I will only say my opinion to an SG that can one-shot skulks.
I'm really sad that the majority seems to want a weapon that can one-shot the default-class of the aliens. (But nobody wants devour back because it's a one-hit-kill. -_- ) With >= 30 fps, it should not take much skill to land SG shots reliably. This will not only cause much anger on the alien side, it will bring back NS2 closer to the noob-punishing state of NS1. The first better weapon you can get should not be one that can make the default class of the aliens practically useless. The so called disadvantage that the SG is a short range weapon is a joke, when 3 of 4 combat classes on the alien side are forced into melee range to do any damage.
With little skill in aiming, the one-shotting SG can make every rambo immune to skulks. Not to mention, that it is not fun on the other side. Being killed by one shot without knowing how you could have been avoiding this, is simply no fun but frustrating. A single rambo marine with a shotgun should not be able to kill every incoming skulk. It should at least take one LMG bullet from another marine. Simply to encourage teamplay. It should at least be very difficult to achieve. But a reliable one-shot-skulk-killer will be just frustrating.
Despite this, the SG should be the favorable weapon against higher lifeforms in terms of damage. Against Lerk, Fade and Onos the SG should be superior to the LMG.
If the shotgun can't 1 shot skulks from point blank then what is the point in using it over an LMG?
2 shots with a shotgun is enough time for an LMG to kill the same skulk, plus the LMG has advantage of 4-5x effective range. Should the shotgun be relegated to only higher lifeforms?
I was under the impression that paying for a shotgun (20 pres is 2/3 that of a lerk!) would grant you a weapon that is better at killing things close range, but gave up much of the range advantage that is so crucial for marines. If shotguns are now countered by the base alien unit (2 hit shotguns will be soft countered by skulks), why take it? It's like going fade only to have fades be worse against marines than skulks are.
Really? Skulks should ambush. So why can't a shotty one shot a skulk? It comes down to personal skill to land that 1 shot. Also skulks are free. Shotties are not.... so now i want free shotties (j/k btw).
As I see that this are valid points, my personal opinion still stands. Getting one-shotted the majority of the time is simply not fun and may frustrate some new players away from the game. As your points also count for the GL (= being bad against skulks but costing res) I see the shotgun more as a weapon against higher life forms, where you would need more damage dealt in shorter time. In order to not render the skulk useless against such a high-damage weapon it needs spread to lessen the effectiveness against small enemies like the skulk but give an opportunity against bigger enemies.
Also ambushing as skulk does not grant you a fair chance when armor lvl2 is in. In 4 bites, the marine has plenty of time to one-shot you.
<!--quoteo(post=1941398:date=Jun 4 2012, 02:28 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jun 4 2012, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Getting one-shotted the majority of the time is simply not fun and may frustrate some new players away from the game. As your points also count for the GL (= being bad against skulks but costing res) I see the shotgun more as a weapon against higher life forms, where you would need more damage dealt in shorter time. In order to not render the skulk useless against such a high-damage weapon it needs spread to lessen the effectiveness against small enemies like the skulk but give an opportunity against bigger enemies.
Also ambushing as skulk does not grant you a fair chance when armor lvl2 is in. In 4 bites, the marine has plenty of time to one-shot you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I think that it is true that getting killed over and over is not fun and can frustrate new players, but I don't think it's a good idea to make gameplay decisions with accessibility in mind rather than depth. The fact is, new players will get killed by a good player with the LMG just as often as the shotgun, and it's just as frustrating.
I always say that ANY well designed game will have this problem, because a well designed game allows for a wide difference in skill levels and playing against someone who is much better than you is a frustrating experience (in any game). Gameplay decisions should be based primary around depth and on maximizing the potential difference between two players. Accessibility comes later and is more to do with matchmaking and grouping players of similar skill levels together to prevent newbies getting stomped on by veteran players.
Of course this doesn't mean that the shotgun should be a super weapon able to one shot from long range, there has to be a balance. At the moment the shotgun is pretty pathetic and not really worth using.
In order to give skulks a chance they need to be able to move with skill that scales similar to aiming. So that when playing against a good player you can out manoeuvre his aim and kill him. That is the only way to balance the game. In a balanced game without that option then you will see marines winning all the time, since aliens will reach a limit where they can't do anything else while the marines continue to improve their aim. The only reason aliens win so often in the current builds is because the game is unbalanced heavily in their favour (not to mention performance issues that affect marine ability / hit-reg).
People who argue for accessibility first don't realize that by gimping all the weapons you actually make the game less fun for everyone (even beginners), because nothing feels satisfying and it becomes more about the game mechanics being powerful rather than the player who is using them.
Well, I have some experience with shotgun... Normally one-shot-guns are overpowered in games and also really annoying to opponent, but the fact that you can only one-shot in melee distance makes NS shotgun special case. Especially in melee vs. range games shotguns gives nice variety to weapons, because the whole aiming concept is different compared to other weapons. With lmg, pistol, gl (or hmg) you want to keep your distance to aliens, but at least In NS1 good players with shotguns shot when aliens were close as possible, so basically sg was a melee weapon. This is the reason why shotgun wasn't overpowered in NS1 and won't be in NS2, because if two skulks attack you with perfect sync even the best shotgunner can only shot one of them. Teamwork (and silence) was counter against shotgunners in NS1, I don't see reasons why wouldn’t it be so in NS2 as well.
And saying that it would be easy to land every shot is quite absurd. You only have to look at NS1 to know that it was far from easy.
An argument that has not been used is that weapons are under the "everybody gets one" regime, so a marine team can go full sg without risking much. With the removal of spikes it might become problematic to have a super strong shotgun early game.
I think we still need to agree on a list of shots vs lifeforms :
1.Without carapace :
skulk at bite range : 1 shot lerk at bite range : 2 shot ...
The real problem isn't the spread or DMG type for Skulks, it is the DMG drop over distance. 2m away with all shells hitting the skulk may only do 170 DMG instead of 200, and if he moves away from you maybe to 5m you may do only 130 DMG (if you still hit all shells, but you won't). The Light type is just making the DMG drop worse.
So you may have hit the Skulk with all shots (he has 190HP with cara), but he was too far away and you only did 170 DMG.
Now add abit of lag and lagcompensation and you may have around 10-40 DMG difference on a PB shot at the, for you, same distance. Especially if a object moves 13m/s a 200ms delay can do 2.6m of difference, that will affect the DMG calculation.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1941407:date=Jun 4 2012, 03:19 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Jun 4 2012, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I have some experience with shotgun... Normally one-shot-guns are overpowered in games and also really annoying to opponent, but the fact that you can only one-shot in melee distance makes NS shotgun special case. Especially in melee vs. range games shotguns gives nice variety to weapons, because the whole aiming concept is different compared to other weapons. With lmg, pistol, gl (or hmg) you want to keep your distance to aliens, but at least In NS1 good players with shotguns shot when aliens were close as possible, so basically sg was a melee weapon. This is the reason why shotgun wasn't overpowered in NS1 and won't be in NS2, because if two skulks attack you with perfect sync even the best shotgunner can only shot one of them. Teamwork (and silence) was counter against shotgunners in NS1, I don't see reasons why wouldn’t it be so in NS2 as well.
And saying that it would be easy to land every shot is quite absurd. You only have to look at NS1 to know that it was far from easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This man knows what he is talking about, you should listen to him.
There is one vital difference though; marines buy their own guns now and, compared to ns1, marines are figuratively swimming in shotguns in ns2. Aliens have an equal abundance of higher tier lifeforms though, so I'm not sure what conclusions to draw.
I guess, ideally, I'd like marines to have less advanced guns in the field and aliens to have less higher tier lifeforms, as I always found early game lmg vs. skulk gameplay to be the most rewarding.
<!--quoteo(post=1941430:date=Jun 4 2012, 04:26 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 4 2012, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is one vital difference though; marines buy their own guns now and, compared to ns1, marines are figuratively swimming in shotguns in ns2. Aliens have an equal abundance of higher tier lifeforms though, so I'm not sure what conclusions to draw.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the SGs at the very least risk being a massive tech explosion. I don't know what is going to stop 3-4 decent shotgunners with medpack support if they push before aliens have something that can actually engage reliably against such firepower.
The two things that cross my mind are ranged lerks or hydra forts and neither sounds awfully exciting.
<!--quoteo(post=1941442:date=Jun 4 2012, 01:18 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 4 2012, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the SGs at the very least risk being a massive tech explosion. I don't know what is going to stop 3-4 decent shotgunners with medpack support if they push before aliens have something that can actually engage reliably against such firepower.
The two things that cross my mind are ranged lerks or hydra forts and neither sounds awfully exciting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coordinated skulking can still wear down shotty rushes. Back when the shotgun 1 shot carapaced skulks reliably, there were still very few successful shotty rushes. It's easy to wear down early game 0-0 marine pushes with shotguns. Meds won't be as spammable when energy is removed next patch.
For anything other than a skulk you basically need a shotgun to kill if they have half a brain. The shotgun is my preferred weapon until I have to kill Onos, then I prefer the grenade launcher. Considering that most of the time aliens are going to win out on the PRes war because survivability and offensive capabilities are enhanced by alien PRes but only offensive PRes abilities are enhanced for marines. If you reduce the power of the main marine counter to multiple life forms you reduce the effectiveness of each PRes a marine can spend especially since you increase their chance to lose their investment, where as the more aliens spend on PRes the more likely they are to be able to keep their investment. You need to give us back the old spread, because by having a larger spread you do reduce damage because larger spread = less bullets hit even if you aim well = less damage. Especially with how, for some reason, you're trying to make the lerk some kind of super assault class that outclasses fades very often.
TL;DR Stop making the lerk a super assault class and give us back the old shotgun because it's the main marine defense against fades and lerks
<!--quoteo(post=1941444:date=Jun 4 2012, 06:23 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 4 2012, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Coordinated skulking can still wear down shotty rushes. Back when the shotgun 1 shot carapaced skulks reliably, there were still very few successful shotty rushes. It's easy to wear down early game 0-0 marine pushes with shotguns. Meds won't be as spammable when energy is removed next patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hopefully so.
I just feel 'wearing down' SGs with skulks isn't going to be very effective in the long run as people and performance get better. In NS1 competetive games 2 SGs and LMG pushing early on was already on borderline where it was better to just respond with baserush or sacrifice nodes and wait for a bit stronger opportunities. Usually it kind of balanced out because 2 SGs were a big investment early on. In NS2 not so much.
Giving carapace the ability to tank SG shot is definitely a big deal, but I feel it's also making the upgrade pretty much a go-to thing each and every game.
Edit: So, basically if I'd have to call it right now, it's to be a tightrope act balancing the SG so that it's not overpowering skulks totally. I guess it's not impossible to find a decent balance, but it might be really tricky and fragile thing considering all skill levels and relations to the rest of the game.
Whel if we talk about shotgun, today multiple times point blank put my barrle into maulth of fade, shot it 5 times with tech lvl 3 weapon upgrade same with lerks, lerk just fly away..... 5 full hits in the face........ must be me but something wrong there.
Samething goes with gernades, 3 full nades in the face with lvl 3 tech and I die by my grenade but lerk just flies away.
seems marines shooting with water pistols or something, but a grenade in your face I doubt you should still fly then. or bite. same with shotgun in your face, should blow away your head.
kinda frustraded.
but only realy usefull upgrade for marines at moment is just only having JP.
- Grenade launcher, 90% of time you either spam it in the door way with group in hope you kills something, need lots of nades kill a onos.......... and you mostly kill your self in normal combat because every alien is up close, your speed is always slower then there so no way keep distance.
- Shotgun, feels to weak and useless, full skuls int he face hit and it does not die, same with lerk and fade, its stupid if you blow something face off it can still move. dunno try it on dummy put shotgun on its face and fire it but I doubt will be much left.
- Flame thrower, its nice, but buggy as hell, 90% of times aliens run true my fires but does not get registrated as hit.... so what deal with that, freaky wall of flame front of me, 75% of my screen is filled with fire but I hit nothing with it? weird.
Comments
While I totally agree with this line, it contradicts just about everything else you said. The NS1 shotgun fired at about the same speed, and had a much much smaller spread than the current shotgun.
Naw dude go load up NS1. Join the bad clan server and ask for a shotty. It shoots very noticeably faster. Also the spread is pretty wide but still more narrow than the current shotgun prolly can't really say. The shotgun was only effective at close range in NS1 yet I find myself killing all types of lifeforms at substantial distances in NS2.
It's really easy to miss most of you pellets even at point blank range... this is a problem with the shotgun right now.
EDIT: Cause I am an idiot
What matters is what happens when you shoot a skulk at close range. Should you be able to one shot him reliably ? At which range (expressed in meaningful gameplay units like bite range or entities size) ? Is it the case now in game or not ?
Is the shotgun better than the lmg ?
Define some clear game-play goals, and just tweak the balance parameters until they are reached, easy enough.
We could even do all this theoretically, we already computed the damage falloff due to spread here : <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115786&view=findpost&p=1893401" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1893401</a>
Technical questions are what are the problem with the shotgun.
I personally think the easy fix is to remove the damage dropoff, and just add an absolute range where the shotgun then does 0 damage, like NS1. From there the spread/damage/num of pellets can be tweaked for further balance. Having the largerish spread and damage falloff kinda double nerfs the shotgun.
I personally think the easy fix is to remove the damage dropoff, and just add an absolute range where the shotgun then does 0 damage, like NS1. From there the spread/damage/num of pellets can be tweaked for further balance. Having the largerish spread and damage falloff kinda double nerfs the shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah.. I did this and it seems like the cone is originating slightly behind your players view. I remember testing this earlier when I thought the shotgun had a firedelay (Well it does in low performance). I remember the shots originate from like the back of your skull or something. At least they did then. It's hard to tell without someone else to spectate.. I still think that might have an effect on it's reliability but it's impossible to know without testing. I think the pellets need to originate in front of your players view slightly.
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice. Looking forward to testing that out.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't the variable damage already pretty much removed in build 208?
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Balance.lua diff b207/b208)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Balance.lua diff b207/b208)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kShotgunMaxDamage = 20
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->-kShotgunMinDamage = 1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+kShotgunMinDamage = 17<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds cool, I'll probably hold off playing until 210 rolls around. Thanks for continuing to try different ways to make it feel right, though!
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha i can already hear it.. "sick shotgun OP" "why make all other weapons useless, shotgun is like sniper with shotgun spread and rocket damage"
...
We could even do all this theoretically, we already computed the damage falloff due to spread here : <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115786&view=findpost&p=1893401" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1893401</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I had forgot how much interesting things we did with the spikes :)
Still got the view rotation in the back of my head... Really want to do it still, but got so put of that anything we tried just got messed up. The rotation obviously works for models, so why couldn't we make it work for view and inputs...
I'm really sad that the majority seems to want a weapon that can one-shot the default-class of the aliens. (But nobody wants devour back because it's a one-hit-kill. -_- ) With >= 30 fps, it should not take much skill to land SG shots reliably. This will not only cause much anger on the alien side, it will bring back NS2 closer to the noob-punishing state of NS1. The first better weapon you can get should not be one that can make the default class of the aliens practically useless. The so called disadvantage that the SG is a short range weapon is a joke, when 3 of 4 combat classes on the alien side are forced into melee range to do any damage.
With little skill in aiming, the one-shotting SG can make every rambo immune to skulks. Not to mention, that it is not fun on the other side. Being killed by one shot without knowing how you could have been avoiding this, is simply no fun but frustrating. A single rambo marine with a shotgun should not be able to kill every incoming skulk. It should at least take one LMG bullet from another marine. Simply to encourage teamplay. It should at least be very difficult to achieve. But a reliable one-shot-skulk-killer will be just frustrating.
Despite this, the SG should be the favorable weapon against higher lifeforms in terms of damage. Against Lerk, Fade and Onos the SG should be superior to the LMG.
2 shots with a shotgun is enough time for an LMG to kill the same skulk, plus the LMG has advantage of 4-5x effective range. Should the shotgun be relegated to only higher lifeforms?
I was under the impression that paying for a shotgun (20 pres is 2/3 that of a lerk!) would grant you a weapon that is better at killing things close range, but gave up much of the range advantage that is so crucial for marines. If shotguns are now countered by the base alien unit (2 hit shotguns will be soft countered by skulks), why take it? It's like going fade only to have fades be worse against marines than skulks are.
Also ambushing as skulk does not grant you a fair chance when armor lvl2 is in. In 4 bites, the marine has plenty of time to one-shot you.
Also ambushing as skulk does not grant you a fair chance when armor lvl2 is in. In 4 bites, the marine has plenty of time to one-shot you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I think that it is true that getting killed over and over is not fun and can frustrate new players, but I don't think it's a good idea to make gameplay decisions with accessibility in mind rather than depth. The fact is, new players will get killed by a good player with the LMG just as often as the shotgun, and it's just as frustrating.
I always say that ANY well designed game will have this problem, because a well designed game allows for a wide difference in skill levels and playing against someone who is much better than you is a frustrating experience (in any game). Gameplay decisions should be based primary around depth and on maximizing the potential difference between two players. Accessibility comes later and is more to do with matchmaking and grouping players of similar skill levels together to prevent newbies getting stomped on by veteran players.
Of course this doesn't mean that the shotgun should be a super weapon able to one shot from long range, there has to be a balance. At the moment the shotgun is pretty pathetic and not really worth using.
In order to give skulks a chance they need to be able to move with skill that scales similar to aiming. So that when playing against a good player you can out manoeuvre his aim and kill him. That is the only way to balance the game. In a balanced game without that option then you will see marines winning all the time, since aliens will reach a limit where they can't do anything else while the marines continue to improve their aim. The only reason aliens win so often in the current builds is because the game is unbalanced heavily in their favour (not to mention performance issues that affect marine ability / hit-reg).
People who argue for accessibility first don't realize that by gimping all the weapons you actually make the game less fun for everyone (even beginners), because nothing feels satisfying and it becomes more about the game mechanics being powerful rather than the player who is using them.
And saying that it would be easy to land every shot is quite absurd. You only have to look at NS1 to know that it was far from easy.
An argument that has not been used is that weapons are under the "everybody gets one" regime, so a marine team can go full sg without risking much. With the removal of spikes it might become problematic to have a super strong shotgun early game.
I think we still need to agree on a list of shots vs lifeforms :
1.Without carapace :
skulk at bite range : 1 shot
lerk at bite range : 2 shot
...
2.With carapace :
skulk at bite range : 2 shot
...
2m away with all shells hitting the skulk may only do 170 DMG instead of 200, and if he moves away from you maybe to 5m you may do only 130 DMG (if you still hit all shells, but you won't). The Light type is just making the DMG drop worse.
So you may have hit the Skulk with all shots (he has 190HP with cara), but he was too far away and you only did 170 DMG.
Now add abit of lag and lagcompensation and you may have around 10-40 DMG difference on a PB shot at the, for you, same distance. Especially if a object moves 13m/s a 200ms delay can do 2.6m of difference, that will affect the DMG calculation.
And saying that it would be easy to land every shot is quite absurd. You only have to look at NS1 to know that it was far from easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This man knows what he is talking about, you should listen to him.
There is one vital difference though; marines buy their own guns now and, compared to ns1, marines are figuratively swimming in shotguns in ns2. Aliens have an equal abundance of higher tier lifeforms though, so I'm not sure what conclusions to draw.
I guess, ideally, I'd like marines to have less advanced guns in the field and aliens to have less higher tier lifeforms, as I always found early game lmg vs. skulk gameplay to be the most rewarding.
I think the SGs at the very least risk being a massive tech explosion. I don't know what is going to stop 3-4 decent shotgunners with medpack support if they push before aliens have something that can actually engage reliably against such firepower.
The two things that cross my mind are ranged lerks or hydra forts and neither sounds awfully exciting.
The two things that cross my mind are ranged lerks or hydra forts and neither sounds awfully exciting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coordinated skulking can still wear down shotty rushes. Back when the shotgun 1 shot carapaced skulks reliably, there were still very few successful shotty rushes. It's easy to wear down early game 0-0 marine pushes with shotguns. Meds won't be as spammable when energy is removed next patch.
TL;DR Stop making the lerk a super assault class and give us back the old shotgun because it's the main marine defense against fades and lerks
Hopefully so.
I just feel 'wearing down' SGs with skulks isn't going to be very effective in the long run as people and performance get better. In NS1 competetive games 2 SGs and LMG pushing early on was already on borderline where it was better to just respond with baserush or sacrifice nodes and wait for a bit stronger opportunities. Usually it kind of balanced out because 2 SGs were a big investment early on. In NS2 not so much.
Giving carapace the ability to tank SG shot is definitely a big deal, but I feel it's also making the upgrade pretty much a go-to thing each and every game.
Edit: So, basically if I'd have to call it right now, it's to be a tightrope act balancing the SG so that it's not overpowering skulks totally. I guess it's not impossible to find a decent balance, but it might be really tricky and fragile thing considering all skill levels and relations to the rest of the game.
Samething goes with gernades, 3 full nades in the face with lvl 3 tech and I die by my grenade but lerk just flies away.
seems marines shooting with water pistols or something, but a grenade in your face I doubt you should still fly then. or bite. same with shotgun in your face, should blow away your head.
kinda frustraded.
but only realy usefull upgrade for marines at moment is just only having JP.
- Grenade launcher, 90% of time you either spam it in the door way with group in hope you kills something, need lots of nades kill a onos.......... and you mostly kill your self in normal combat because every alien is up close, your speed is always slower then there so no way keep distance.
- Shotgun, feels to weak and useless, full skuls int he face hit and it does not die, same with lerk and fade, its stupid if you blow something face off it can still move. dunno try it on dummy put shotgun on its face and fire it but I doubt will be much left.
- Flame thrower, its nice, but buggy as hell, 90% of times aliens run true my fires but does not get registrated as hit.... so what deal with that, freaky wall of flame front of me, 75% of my screen is filled with fire but I hit nothing with it? weird.