Kharaan Mutable Buildings

botchiball · May 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">Suggestion to add more spice and variability to Kharaan Structures</div><span style="color:#FF0000">This concept is old, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119928" target="_blank">please go here</a> for a newer version of the same - or read through/comment on the old one as well.
</span>
<span style="color:#98FB98"><b>Mutable Buildings</b></span>
This idea came about from running around the maps as Kharaa and seeing lots of the same thing. At the hive is a bunch of structures which are meant to not be seen, and out on the front lines are Hydras, Harvesters, sometimes Clogs, and sometimes Crags. This is also tying into the lack of Gorge structures and abilities, hopefully this acts as a springboard to get some thoughts moving.
All of these concepts are just ideas that sprang up (or were borrowed from other people's threads), but the main idea of Clogs and other structures mutating is the most important and interesting imo.
<b>
<span style="color:#FFFACD">Hydra Pill</span> -</b>
Hydra on the ground + Clog on top = a Hydra with extensive shielding (low damage, high armor)
<b>
<span style="color:#FFFACD">Hydra Spire</span> - </b>
Clog on ground + Hydra on top = essentially morphs the Clog into a podium for the Hydra to 'see' off of. (low damage, low armor, non-standard placement, increased range)
<b>
<span style="color:#FFFACD">Hydra Tube</span> - </b>
Clog on wall + Hydra at angle = the tube would stretch out fairly strait and have holes on all sides - so it would have a small profile. Refocusing the Hydras aim to 360 degrees with only the width of the tube in the z-plane, causing the Hydra to fire as marines walk along its different axis (each hole, or angle of fire, would have a different recharge rate). (low damage, low armor, non-standard placement, surprise attacks with possibly high damage)
<b>
<span style="color:#FFFACD">Hydra Nest</span> - </b>
Hydra on ground + Hydra on top = more heads, more attacks. When killed, a shell stays behind which will sprout additional Hydra stalks overtime if it is sitting on infestation (mid damage, low armor, extended regerenation)
<b>
<span style="color:#FFFACD">Hydra Trap</span> - </b>
Clog Wall + Hydra on front = adding a Hydra would imbed it into the face of the wall - become a series of tubes facing forward. This would limit the range of the Hydra, but increase its accuracy in that one direction.
<b>
<span style="color:#FFFACD">Venom Hydra</span> - </b>
Cyst on ground + Hydra placed on top = The Hydra seed pods would die off and be replaced by closed flowers which suck juice out of the Cyst base and squirt a stream of acidic fluid at marines passing by. Much smaller range, but much more accurate and damage over time. (i.e. would provide some limited defense against Jet Packers, which is sorely needed).
<b>
<span style="color:#DDA0DD">Kharaan Sensor</span> - </b>
Hydra + Cyst on top = The two structures merge together to create a thin structure with lots of little tendrils which dangle outward and catch wind or just hang with gravity. Would function like the sensory chambers of NS1 (providing hive sight in an area and marking any marine who touches it). Could place these on the ceiling and have walls of tendrils which marines can't even see they are walking through. Invisible to marines unless pinged.
<b>
<span style="color:#98FB98">Clog Bridge</span> - </b>
Clog on wall + clog strait out = gorges can cross areas if need be
<b>
<span style="color:#98FB98">Clog Stairs</span> - </b>
Clog on ground + Clog placed on top at 45 degree angle = for Gorge and Onos maneuverability.
<b>
<span style="color:#98FB98">Clog Plug Stopper</span> - </b>
Clog + Destroyed/unbuilt built Power Node = Allows a gorge to block a Comm from dropping a powernode, and/or a marine from building one (shouldn't be able to place on a Power Node being built.
<b>
<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Shielded Cyst</span> -</b>
Cyst on ground + Clog placed on top = functions just like a cyst, but increases its health, armor, and energy reserves.
<b>
<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Cyst Trap</span> -</b>
Cyst + Cyst = The two cysts would merge together forming a large orange sack with little hairs sticking off. Any marine touching the hairs causes the Cyst Trap to rupture outward, doing minor damage in a radius but also marking any marine in range so they are visible to hive sight. This ruptured material would take time to evaporate, and during that time medpacks would be unable to get rid of the hive sight marker.
<b>
<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Fester Pile</span> - </b>
Clog + Cyst = The two structures merge together to create a large pile of green goop. The Fester Pile would cause infestation to spread much faster in an area around itself, as well as provide a red/orange glow to a room. Could provide infestation to an entire room rather than just an area around itself - the idea being that once you have clogs, you need infestation to spread much faster. Could spice up more endgames.
<b>
<span style="color:#F5DEB3">Kharaan Window</span> - </b>
Clog Wall + Cyst = The cyst spreads out across the Clog Wall becoming a transparent "window" for kharaa only. Marines would simply see an orange blob.

<span style="color:#ADD8E6">***********************************************</span>

As you can see, could get pretty interesting. Personally I think the Kharaa (and specifically the Gorge) need more range in structures. I'm not talking Shifts or new Shade stuff, they just need.. more structures. The environments are all instantly recognizable to us players - a hallway, a cave, a window, a drill bit, a crate, a light. Granted its all futuristic, but its still recognizable as human products (which it should be).

There needs to be the same sort of thing for Kharaa, right now its just the above structures covered in a green paste. It needs to look like an entire new environment, like the Kharaa aren't just sitting on top of the dirt or metal or tiles, they are a part of it.

**Re-post from another topic that had too much in it - tried to make it more readable.

Ryne · May 2012

Interesting ideas. Would be nice to work this in a way that required heavy coordination between gorge and alien comm, though that goes against their gardener approach. Maybe not though, it'd be like when I garden with my wife :-p

It would be nice to see the structures become more complex without simply adding lots of new buildables. Basically giving the gorge the ingridents to make complex systems.

botchiball · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryne @ May 17 2012, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Interesting ideas. Would be nice to work this in a way that required heavy coordination between gorge and alien comm, though that goes against their gardener approach. Maybe not though, it'd be like when I garden with my wife :-p</div>

lol, I didn't even think of that. Being Khamm IS essentially like gardening with someone else, or maybe like being a gardener/nanny - with your day care kids running amuck around your plants.

I would really like to see the Gorge and Khamm working more hand in hand. When I go Gorge now, I will drop Clogs on top of any upgrade chambers I see to hide them - which is essentially what this system would do. However it takes 3+ Clogs to hide a Shell, and if I die the Clogs are usually gone by the time I'm ready to go Gorge again. It would be nice to see a more lasting system. Even the Engineer in TF2's structures wont just vanish because he died, it takes switching to another class.. maybe if there were a Perma-Gorge option?

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread: I don't really see the Gorge working with the Khamm as going against the "gardener approach", it does turn the Gorge into more of a gardener as well - but I think that's a good thing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryne @ May 17 2012, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>It would be nice to see the structures become more complex without simply adding lots of new buildables. Basically giving the gorge the ingridents to make complex systems.</div>

I wasn't really trying to add buildings, just to give the Gorge the ability to place what they have in different ways, or to slightly change the way that buildings already function.
The Hydra variations are just slight changes on the original theme, specialized in one aspect of the Hydra: more armor, more range, more sneaky, more health, more accuracy.
The sensor idea is a mostly cosmetic change, and would really only be useful if the infestation didn't already provide hive sight.
Clog structures are to promote mobility, or make it easier to place defenses.
Cyst structures are pretty generic except for the Cyst trap - which is simply the ability "Rupture", but it would fire off automatically. (Has anyone seen "Rupture" used productively yet?) And the Window is more of a common sense thing - gotta see whats going on on the other side of the wall.

I would like to see more interplay between the Khamm and Gorge with this type of system (like covering Shells or Veils), but the idea of this is to make the Gorge more useful and self-sufficient; not to pull more time from the Khamm when they would rather be dealing with a fight. If the two roles could interact at varied time intervals it could work - so a Gorge could walk up to any Cyst and place a Clog on top to increase its health, and a Khamm could place a Cyst on top of any Clog to create a Fester Pile. As long as there wouldn't be nagging.

hapro · May 2012

I'm not sure if it's the right use of clogs but I do like the idea of gorges being able to modify structures. But, rather than building a clog on top of another structure, they could upgrade an existing one. Like, a normal crag might just dispense healing spray, but a gorge could upgrade it for 10 pres and choose between adding umbra or increased healing. Something that would make building somewhat useful when originally constructed but would really shine when upgraded by a gorge. With enough incentive to upgrade buildings it could maybe even help out the 10 onos at once problem.

botchiball · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hapro @ May 23 2012, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not sure if it's the right use of clogs but I do like the idea of gorges being able to modify structures. But, rather than building a clog on top of another structure, they could upgrade an existing one. Like, a normal crag might just dispense healing spray, but a gorge could upgrade it for 10 pres and choose between adding umbra or increased healing. Something that would make building somewhat useful when originally constructed but would really shine when upgraded by a gorge. With enough incentive to upgrade buildings it could maybe even help out the 10 onos at once problem.</div>
Not a bad idea, but how would you represent this in-game? Having a pop-up menu is distracting/takes players out of the game experience - especially if there are multiple choices. Which is why placing one structure onto another could be pretty intuitive - you could actually display what the new structure would be as a ghost image before it is actually created.

I do like the idea for spending PRes to improve structures, but then the devs seem to keep wanting to pull away from that concept. I think it makes the game more interesting and different than others I've seen.

Not Flayra · May 2012

I really, really like this idea. It would add so much variety to the Gorge gameplay.
I'd also like to see additions between the Khamm structures and Gorge though; building a Hydra on a Whip would increase the range and damage of the hydra spikes, at the cost of some accuracy.

And building a Clog on a Crag would allow it to dispense a pie every 30 seconds or so... Gorges would be able to pick them up and carry them (disabling Spit for the duration) and set them down in places, acting as healthpacks (possibly number-of-use or a fixed max healing value) for Kharaa, and movement-slowing mines for any Marines who stepped on them. Or just a slip and fall (with hilarious farty-noise) like a portable Stomp mine.

botchiball · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Not Flayra @ May 23 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I really, really like this idea. It would add so much variety to the Gorge gameplay.
I'd also like to see additions between the Khamm structures and Gorge though; building a Hydra on a Whip would increase the range and damage of the hydra spikes, at the cost of some accuracy.</div>
I think a Hydra on a Clog would make more sense to add range -> a Hydra on a Whip may be more useful at allowing the Whip to attack multiple targets at once, essentially giving the Whip an additional whip (or tendril). Especially since Hydras are already pretty inaccurate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Not Flayra @ May 23 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>And building a Clog on a Crag would allow it to dispense a pie every 30 seconds or so... Gorges would be able to pick them up and carry them (disabling Spit for the duration) and set them down in places, acting as healthpacks (possibly number-of-use or a fixed max healing value) for Kharaa, and movement-slowing mines for any Marines who stepped on them. Or just a slip and fall (with hilarious farty-noise) like a portable Stomp mine.</div>
I assume this is a troll joke? Besides, why would you want to see a Gorge dropping pies? Its not a petting zoo, don't want to get the marine's shoes all mucked up.

Not Flayra · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ May 24 2012, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think a Hydra on a Clog would make more sense to add range -> a Hydra on a Whip may be more useful at allowing the Whip to attack multiple targets at once, essentially giving the Whip an additional whip (or tendril). Especially since Hydras are already pretty inaccurate.</div>
For the moment. Accuracy is one of the things being balanced. We don't want it hitscan, but the current state is a joke. Once it's to a balanced point, trading accuracy for range and damage (as the Whip uses the hydra to fling spikes like a lacrosse player would a ball) would seem like a good upgrade combination. Putting a hydra on a clog... just.. raises it up a bit. Though I would agree and am looking into making Hydra range based on height, so the spikes have a gravity-curve to determine their max range (meaning one planted on the ceiling will be able to shoot further). And why not just make two whips, if it's just going to add more of the same? No, I don't think so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I assume this is a troll joke? Besides, why would you want to see a Gorge dropping pies? Its not a petting zoo, don't want to get the marine's shoes all mucked up.</div>
Absolutely not! Would I do that? The Gorge is designed as a builder/support/healing class. In NS1, the ability to drop Defense chambers was invaluable in setting up forward bases and hidden healing stations. We don't want to stick *directly* to that, but allowing the gorge to set up a similar forward-firebase would be a good idea. Limiting it to a per-use-heal-X, or a droppable 'able to heal 500hp total before disappearing' or however much would keep it flexible.

The marine part is just because I love seeing the Marines fall over. :D So <i>hilarious</i>!

Also it would act as a hybrid defense/attack, which plays off the dual nature of healspray. I'd love to get ALL of the Gorge's abilities set up like that, with multiple effects depending on use/target. Unfortunately, having Spit stick and act as a web-mine (or just dual-nature into being Web if aimed at the wall instead of a Marine) would be a bit *too* strong, and eliminate a penalty for missing at all. But that's for another thread.

AurOn2 · May 2012

Too many complicated systems will make the game impossible to ballance
Take a look at the hydra limits
That didn't work, no matter how hard they try to make it work.

botchiball · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ May 27 2012, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Too many complicated systems will make the game impossible to ballance
Take a look at the hydra limits
That didn't work, no matter how hard they try to make it work.</div>
I would argue how "complicated" the limiting of Hydras is, though I do see your point. My point was just to get the concept of mutating buildings out there, not to actually apply ALL of these concepts.

NEX9 · June 2012

Nice idea will read them all latter

Kharaan Mutable Buildings

Comments