Clog Usefulness
botchiball
Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15810Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15810Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Ideas on how to make those balls of goo more helpful</div><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Start reading here, OP continues to be updated<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Usefulness</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Currently the Clog seems a bit useless. One Clog is easily jumped over, sometimes two can be, and the smallest of hallways requires all 10 of the Clogs available to block it -> however destroying the lowest Clog reduces the wall to a pile of balls. Here are some suggested tweaks to help them function a bit more as I think they are intended to without drastically changing their art or implementation:
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Ease of Use</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-When a Kharaan player approaches a Clog (or group of Clogs) and presses E quickly, have the Clogs recede into the base clogs which they are connected to for a short amount of time. After the duration is up, the clogs would return to where they were and continue to provide their wall support. This would let the Gorge who constructed the structure to still get past easily.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Health</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-Have Clog's health increase based on how many Clogs are touching it, and have them share that health so none die until the total health is gone. This doesn't mean they need to add together, two clogs could have 1.75 the health of one clog, 3 could have 2.25, etc. or some other diminishing return formula (this would prevent marines from shooting the lowest clog and disabling the whole structure).
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Health 2</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-Clogs could also mature over time, increasing in health and armor as they have a chance to grow thickness to their hide. During this maturation process, the Clog would change color from its freshly placed green, to a bleached-bone color. This (along with the number of clogs) would allow Marines to know intuitively how strong the wall would be.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Ease of Construction</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-When building Clogs, have their build option stay active until the gorge presses a different ability key or heals - and take away any wait time, so that the only limit is energy.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Ease of Construction 2</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-Could also be nice to have Clogs "autobuild" certain structures based on whether they are on the ground or a wall, or if there is another clog nearby. For example - two clogs on walls across from each other could build a wall of that height; one on the floor and one the wall could build a wall of 'wall side' height and 'floor side' long; two clogs on the floor could create a wall of that width at however high is possible. Should this type of system be worked out, Clogs could be switched to a "number of walls" amount rather than number of clogs - the idea being to speed up building drastically. Walls could also start off weak and mature into true walls over time or via healspray like all other structures. Lets face it, 10 blocks isn't very fun or useful, and 30 blocks is a lot of fun but not all that useful either.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Usefulness</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->- Clogs could gain an ability where they "Soak" damage from structures around them in a small radius. They would still only be able to take a certain amount of damage in a single hit - with the rest hitting the original structure. This would provide another use for the Clog, and keep it useful further into the game.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Usefulness 2</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->- As additional Hives are gained, all Clogs become larger -> allowing the same size area to be blocked by less Clogs and for Gorges to spread out their Clog placement without affecting server performance. (This idea credit to Rantology)
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Ease of Deconstruction</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->- When building additional Clogs, there is often an issue with having too many Clogs on the map and not being able to build past your limit. With Hydras, the "oldest" Hydra is destroyed as you place a new one - I think this needs to be the same for the Clogs. Recently I was in a game where I had 10 Clogs protecting Atrium, but when Atrium was overrun and I had to run away toward Crevice, I wasn't able to build a new wall of defense because my Clogs were still in Atrium. Additionally, a "kill all Clogs" button (or replacement to placing a new Clog which doesn't work because of the cap) could work out nicely. Definitely need some sort of easier re-placement function than running back to the placed Clogs and holding "E" with your face pressed up against them.
<!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Usefulness</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Currently the Clog seems a bit useless. One Clog is easily jumped over, sometimes two can be, and the smallest of hallways requires all 10 of the Clogs available to block it -> however destroying the lowest Clog reduces the wall to a pile of balls. Here are some suggested tweaks to help them function a bit more as I think they are intended to without drastically changing their art or implementation:
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Ease of Use</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-When a Kharaan player approaches a Clog (or group of Clogs) and presses E quickly, have the Clogs recede into the base clogs which they are connected to for a short amount of time. After the duration is up, the clogs would return to where they were and continue to provide their wall support. This would let the Gorge who constructed the structure to still get past easily.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Health</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-Have Clog's health increase based on how many Clogs are touching it, and have them share that health so none die until the total health is gone. This doesn't mean they need to add together, two clogs could have 1.75 the health of one clog, 3 could have 2.25, etc. or some other diminishing return formula (this would prevent marines from shooting the lowest clog and disabling the whole structure).
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Health 2</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-Clogs could also mature over time, increasing in health and armor as they have a chance to grow thickness to their hide. During this maturation process, the Clog would change color from its freshly placed green, to a bleached-bone color. This (along with the number of clogs) would allow Marines to know intuitively how strong the wall would be.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Ease of Construction</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-When building Clogs, have their build option stay active until the gorge presses a different ability key or heals - and take away any wait time, so that the only limit is energy.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Ease of Construction 2</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-Could also be nice to have Clogs "autobuild" certain structures based on whether they are on the ground or a wall, or if there is another clog nearby. For example - two clogs on walls across from each other could build a wall of that height; one on the floor and one the wall could build a wall of 'wall side' height and 'floor side' long; two clogs on the floor could create a wall of that width at however high is possible. Should this type of system be worked out, Clogs could be switched to a "number of walls" amount rather than number of clogs - the idea being to speed up building drastically. Walls could also start off weak and mature into true walls over time or via healspray like all other structures. Lets face it, 10 blocks isn't very fun or useful, and 30 blocks is a lot of fun but not all that useful either.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Usefulness</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->- Clogs could gain an ability where they "Soak" damage from structures around them in a small radius. They would still only be able to take a certain amount of damage in a single hit - with the rest hitting the original structure. This would provide another use for the Clog, and keep it useful further into the game.
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Usefulness 2</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->- As additional Hives are gained, all Clogs become larger -> allowing the same size area to be blocked by less Clogs and for Gorges to spread out their Clog placement without affecting server performance. (This idea credit to Rantology)
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Ease of Deconstruction</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->- When building additional Clogs, there is often an issue with having too many Clogs on the map and not being able to build past your limit. With Hydras, the "oldest" Hydra is destroyed as you place a new one - I think this needs to be the same for the Clogs. Recently I was in a game where I had 10 Clogs protecting Atrium, but when Atrium was overrun and I had to run away toward Crevice, I wasn't able to build a new wall of defense because my Clogs were still in Atrium. Additionally, a "kill all Clogs" button (or replacement to placing a new Clog which doesn't work because of the cap) could work out nicely. Definitely need some sort of easier re-placement function than running back to the placed Clogs and holding "E" with your face pressed up against them.
Comments
This sounds perfect. Currently, it doesn't matter whether you have 3 clogs blocking a doorway or 10, it takes the same number of grenades to get through. This change would provide an intuitive way for knowing how strong a clog wall is, and would also force marines to expend some serious fire power in order to get rid of hefty fortifications. Gorges would also be able to team up, maybe placing 20 or so clogs at one entrance, making a really strong wall, but putting all their clogs in one basket. The diminishing returns on the wall health would be vital though, and would need to be well balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1936679:date=May 17 2012, 03:15 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ May 17 2012, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Ease of Construction</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-When building Clogs, have their build option stay active until the gorge presses a different ability key or heals - and take away any wait time, so that the only limit is energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is how all structures should work to be honest. If I'm in cyst building mode, I don't know why it should keep getting reset every time I drop another cyst.
The main things right now IMO are aliens shouldnt be obstructed by clogs, and clogs should be less fussy to build.
And we also need more of them - 10 per hive!
Excellent point. Along side the maturing over time - by having the Clogs change color from green to a more bleached bone, it would show how old and strong the wall would be. I agree that the diminishing returns would be important, maybe the largest structure couldn't have more health than half that of a hive?
<!--quoteo(post=1936683:date=May 17 2012, 09:32 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 17 2012, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is how all structures should work to be honest. If I'm in cyst building mode, I don't know why it should keep getting reset every time I drop another cyst.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed - I think Khamm's cyst mode should work like this as well. It would also be nice to have a more obvious display of Khamm's available energy while placing them.
<!--quoteo(post=1936684:date=May 17 2012, 09:44 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ May 17 2012, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And we also need more of them - 10 per hive!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, if only ; ). Pretty sure this is a limitation based on computations, so we're likely not getting it : (. I would also like more than 10, or the "Clog Wall" structure as described above so that they were more useful.
Clogs are just like... "oh hey onos/fade, you wanted to use this door for an escape route? not anymore LOL!" and as the OP noted it takes like 10+ of them to actually "clog" anything. The entire implementation needs to be re-booted, right now they don't seem intuitive and they are extremely difficult to use effectively. Not to mention having so many per gorge, that really can't be helping server performance..
For the ease of use for other lifeforms, perhaps a less animation-demanding way could be making all the connected Clogs translucent (after +use), essentially the original Goo Wall concept at work :)
<u><b>Goo Wall</b></u>
I was actually just thinking about something like this. I hate how difficult it is to build clogs and how little space they actually take up. I was thinking it would be interesting if building clogs or a goo wall was similar to building a polygon with vertices. Essentially, a gorge looks at a door and fires "stems" (at at least 3 points) for a goo wall, then those stems connect to one another and build a plane between them. Depending on the proximity of the stems, the thickness of the wall will vary using a similar principle in this video:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFfNoXSDXqg&list=UUikjPYSpgq4nhy9THhALSjg&index=6&feature=plcp" target="_blank">Infestation Concepts</a>.
<b><u>Lichen</u></b>
Another structure that could be introduced to a gorge to supplement this reinterpretation of clogs would be a structure called a "shroom" or "lichen" which is a platform like growth that can be placed similarly to clogs today, this would allow aliens to build stairs along walls or platforms across valleys.
Marines should be able to pass through them as well, just with added friction and resistance. A marine could sprint into a single layer wall and emerge from the other side ~1-2 seconds later, perhaps taking spore damage while inside.
With a goo wall constructed and few hydras placed behind it, a marine would take a large risk to pass through the wall without a squad and some comm support.
A gelatinous wall is much more conducive to trap-making than the current green blocks.
Consider things like that a useful way to use clogs beyond just blocking doorways.
You can also use them to shield crags or other vulnerable structures from fire while still keeping them on the frontline.
Or you can build little walls to hide behind as a gorge when marines attack your building sites.
Practically, I think culprit has it right, aliens should be able to slip through the walls with a slim movement penalty, and marines should have to hack through or be speed-reduced and attacked as they go. Seems like a perfect job for the flamethrower.
- Clogs touching eachother get a shared health pool
- Touching clogs grow together to 1 smooth pile of Cloggines-wall
- Clogs mature over time, growing more health
- Aliens can pass through the walls with a slowdown effect (or +use?)
- Marines can never pass through
- Flamethrower damages clogs + they shrink when being set on fire, both in size as in max health.
- Clogs touching eachother get a shared health pool
- Touching clogs grow together to 1 smooth pile of Cloggines-wall
- Clogs mature over time, growing more health
- Aliens can pass through the walls with a slowdown effect (or +use?)
- Marines can never pass through
- Flamethrower damages clogs + they shrink when being set on fire, both in size as in max health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think 'Slowdown Effect vs +Use' would be more a matter of how smooth it operates (Probably would be easier to program multiple clogs to go transparent vs move out of the way). Either way I think there should be a trade-off to opening the wall vs not -> i.e. opening would let bullets and grenades pass right through as well.
@Rise - While I like the idea of adding functionality to the clogs, I'm not big on being able to shoot through them. It would be really confusing and frustrating to a marine to come up on a wall and then die for no reason, when there were actually 6 Hydras on the other side looking right at him.
I still think they need some way of being built faster for the Gorge - the time it takes to build a structure, and the time it takes to tear it down doesn't equate near enough.
I'm liking how clogs are now a tier 1 ability, it lets the Gorge be a little more helpful in the beginning. And along with the bile bomb, helps slightly in later games.
As I build, I'm still screaming for an easier and quicker way to build the clogs into useful structures -> like having the build option stay 'open' until another ability is called, or placing two clogs and an auto-placed wall (or series of clogs) created between them.
I am still finding clogs to be rather useless versus even a single marine - shooting out the base clog and the wall falls apart. I understand not wanting to make a marine player feel like they are useless when they come up to a wall and can't get past it, but in the process of making the marine feel good about themselves the gorge player feels useless. The overall goal would be to get both players to feel empowered. The big problem at the moment is that an entire wall can be destroyed (or rendered useless) at the cost of destroying one clog. The idea of combining the health of the various clogs would boost that amount to the health of three or four clogs - but never any higher because of diminishing returns. This would still allow a single marine to destroy such a structure if they are alone (and would still destroy the entire wall - empowering), and a Gorge witnessing the event has time to warn teammates and call for assistance or to try to shoot the marine from above or behind, or to evolve back to a skulk (and lets them feel empowered and useful).
Would also still really like to see Kharaan player's being able to "use" a wall structure to pass by it, either by making them phase out of reality like the fade, or squish down against their base clog.
IMO- just bring back Web in some variation and ditch clogs until they can be better implemented, the current incarnation is just... not that good.
IMO- just bring back Web in some variation and ditch clogs until they can be better implemented, the current incarnation is just... not that good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think in the Q&As they have talked about some structure ability that mimics web. Spider something or another? If thats true, gorge probably wont get web back :(
playing a marine i never said to mayself "oh no CLOGS! .. what to do?"
yeah i miss webs :( anti-jetpack webbing + an onos with devour waiting below.. gulp !
Clogs are an entirely different animal, while webs and clogs both block access to areas, they have very different supplemental uses. Webs hold someone exposed for damage (easy targets); while clogs can prevent structures from receiving damage by blocking line of sight or grenades - at least for a time.
Maybe mature Clog structures could actually soak damage for other Kharaan structures around them - giving clogs another use. (Adjusted original post to include this).
or that you need to kill from top down to stop wall collapsing.
I would also like to see the passing true tried out but real sticky..
or that you need to kill from top down to stop wall collapsing.
I would also like to see the passing true tried out but real sticky..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not big on requiring Marines to kill the structures from the top down - not really intuitive. Maybe if all damage into a wall was sucked up into the furthest Clog from the base? So as you shot one Clog, you could visually see the Clog's transferring health from one to another (color change, scaling up vs down, etc.) - that could work fairly well.
Pretty sure it's capped at 10 because they "clog" the server tickrate =o What if your clogs just got bigger in size the more hive you have?
lolz at how simple that is, love it. +1 and adding it to the OP.
I'd like to see a way to spread the clogs so rather than half of it clipping through and you only get half of the clog used, maybe add a way to hold shift + place clogs so they sort of 'snap' into a more useful position, obstructing more area each.
Perhaps if you could use them to easily block a power node, preventing it from being built unless the clog is destroyed.
I'd like to see a way to spread the clogs so rather than half of it clipping through and you only get half of the clog used, maybe add a way to hold shift + place clogs so they sort of 'snap' into a more useful position, obstructing more area each.
Perhaps if you could use them to easily block a power node, preventing it from being built unless the clog is destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting, but generally my problem is that as a skulk I am fine - as anything else, I'll have issues getting around, over, under, etc th
Interesting suggestion about placing them where you want them by holding shift, this could make a good addition. Then again, why not just have their default "depth" as higher?
I like the idea of blocking a powernode, that's something I've wanted since I started playing the Beta. In fact, I want other "structures" as well, check out some ideas here if you like: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=118514</a> -> and i added the powernode blocker : ).
I dont really agree with combining clog health into one large pool as i feel clogs should be disposable fortifications and really a permanent wall.
I agree and disagree. I think having the Clogs start out as smaller than necessary (but able to be stacked), and overtime having larger Clogs or the ability to scale them would be a good "growth of power" for the Gorge. During endgame while Kharaa are winning, the Clogs should provide some sort of instant defense for the Gorge -> like a large Clog directly in front of them, and without hassle.
<!--quoteo(post=1951725:date=Jul 15 2012, 01:19 PM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Jul 15 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont really agree with combining clog health into one large pool as i feel clogs should be disposable fortifications and really a permanent wall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not suggesting that Clogs be permanent, just that they work more regularly and predictable. The big issue that the "combining clog health" issue (<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro--><b>Clog Ease of Use</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->) solves is where a wall is constructed by a Gorge over the course of a minute or longer, and then a marine destroys the one bottom Clog in half a clip and the entire wall falls apart - taking only a few seconds to do so. With diminishing returns, the walls I'm suggesting would actually be much weaker than the combined total health of a current wall. The max I think would be good would be 3 current Clogs worth of health, but it would take many Clogs to reach that (3 new Clogs would actually have closer to two current Clogs health).
When first implemented max clogs increased by 5 (or was it 10) per hive.
It was 10, so every Gorge had 40 Clogs (and 12 Hydras) by the end of the game, which I think they are trying to avoid. For the real reason you'd have to ask the Devs, but server capability is the one that makes the most sense.
And which is why I think Rantology's idea of scaling the Clogs overtime is so good, it provides an obvious advantage but only over time. As long as the Gorge can still jump up on the Clogs somehow (possibly by controlling the scale), I think its a great idea.