<!--quoteo(post=1936327:date=May 15 2012, 02:30 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 15 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because millions of people have AIDs doesn't mean they're doing something right. Your argument is invalid. The benefit of killing someone is that you take them off the field; RFK implies there is no consequence to killing someone or that there isn't enough. In NS2 there is a strong benefit for the killer to make a kill, especially if the other player has invested pres or is guarding an objective. RFK would only create needless rewards for players when substantial ones already exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->RFK actually stopped mindless zerging of bases...
Taking people off the field is no that important in NS since single units can easily kill multiply units..
NS is a resource and structure game no RFK used to be a big part of it...
<!--quoteo(post=1936254:date=May 14 2012, 10:53 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ May 14 2012, 10:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are kills the only way to gain resources in LoL/HoN (never played either)? Because since NS has RTs that are responsible for the larger portion of the resource income, feeding might not be as problematic in comparison. I don't remember it being a significant problem in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think it's anywhere as big of a deal in NS1 as it is in HoN and DotA. I can go into detail if I really have to, but I think the RFK is already distracting the discussion more than enough. As Tweadle mentioned, RFK isn't going to solve anything alone. It's a damn interesting feature and a mighty fine tool, but not the big solution we are looking for.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Swalk brought this up about a half a year ago i think. Coined it Mass Tech
Upsetting the variance in accrued pres across the team will discourage the chances/frequency of said "explosions" but a halfway coordinated team even in a pub can accomplish the same thing no matter what - <b>so the end result really must be accomplished by other means such as the proposed Rock, Paper, Scissor mechanics shown in roles.</b>i.e. shotgun vs fade, fade can only hurt players not structures, structures can only be healed by welders and gorges etc etc.
This makes it so that a team of lerks would be ineffective or severely lacking in a way that cripples their team to a suicidal point. If this level of severity cannot be accomplished,<i> all that will be required to ever win is the same lifeform, spammed</i> - creating a very shallow experience.
RFK is nice on paper and i was once for it, but after so much discussion about it over a year there really are too many downsides, and better options available.
Scale-able alien upgrades is definitely the right method. But this alone wont create much variance - what lerk do you know wouldn't spend a few extra pres for that carapace? <i>So if everyone does it - then once again there's that lack of variance across the team.</i> I suggested in the I & S forums casted upgrades costing pres and lasting a duration of time. This cant be the only idea / option though... brainstorm!
total strawman here.. for pubs/new players perhaps there could be something in the buy menu that reflects the overall balance of the alien team. ie: the RPS model. so for example a person buying a lifeform would know if a team is weak against structures & would tell which lifeform would improve the team balance. i dont think lifeform counts would do it as well as a concrete indicator of the effect on the field. this, just might, gently encourage some diversity in lifeform choice. the trick would be to pick the dimensions that would be simple enough & still accurate enough to be useful.
<u><b>On the main topic of mass tech</b></u> As ironhorse said, swalk did mention this topic for a while. Increasing upgrade costs per life form are a very good change to address this, but are not enough to be the solution. Lets try to evaluate the problem. The marine team has pretty much solved this problem. Besides the GL every weapon has (or should have) a specialized use and a counter. (SG isn't useful for long range, etc.) This way you have many options to spend your pRes on. If it is optimal, than every weapon should cost the same amount of pRes. You will have no weapon that is superior (and more costly) as another weapon. It should be just useful in another way. You could reach this by decreasing the damage of the primary fire of the GL. (But would need to change the model to reflect this to the player.) This way you got the benefit of the grenades against buildings, but with the cost of a smaller and weaker LMG. The flame thrower should have less damage against players, but draining much more adrenaline and being a beast against infestation and setting floors on fire for longer. Every weapon should have a unique use. This way you get diversity and it's the solution to the "tech explosion".
The alien team sure has options too. But they are too few and <b>the price model prevents you from making real decisions.</b> If you have more than 70 pRes, you should choose the onos. It's the strongest life form you can get. If you have 50pRes you choose the fade over the lerk... and so on. The whole price model of increasing value (=increasing strength) destroys any real decision making.
So how to solve this? Making every life form cost the same? (Maybe besides the gorge.) But than you have to make every life form equally strong, you will say. But that is not the full truth. I will state some "probably solutions" short for easier reading:<ul><li>Make an upgrade for every higher life form that the alien commander has to research in the hive consecutively. (This way onos will remain late game and fade mid game.)</li><li>Split up the augmentation upgrade to one upgrade for every slot weapon. (One upgrade for blink, one for for leap, etc.)</li><li>Allow the player to buy this upgrades (when researched) additionally to the life form. (Cheaper lerk without bile bomb, more expensive fade with blink, etc.)</li><li>Create a special use and a counter for every life form. (For example: Flamethrower against fades.)</li><li>Increase the health of higher life forms, but decrease the damage. (Longer fights, more reward for better aiming, less frustration with insta-kills.)</li><li>Additionally to increasing upgrade costs, make them actually count. (An onos without upgrades should be a way lesser threat than with upgrades.</li></ul> The last point is actually a real problem. For example, making carapace way stronger will make upgrades like silence useless. I have no solution to that yet, but if we could find a way to make the usefulness of the upgrades even AND increasing their value they could be a real alternative to spend res on instead of saving up for another life form. Maybe every player could adjust how many pRes he will spend on an upgrade, allowing to get stronger carapace or faster camouflage with more pRes. (But this will probably very unintuitive, thinking of skulks with a huge bunch of armor.)
Anyway. If we could increase the power of the upgrades, we could bring back pRes-costs to them even for the skulk. Allowing for more options where to spend your pRes AND making the skulk a valid combatant in late game.
This are just a few ideas. But I think I have pointed out the main problem.
<u><b>On the topic of RFK</b></u> This brings in many problems:<ul><li>It's bad for a team where the default lifeform is based of suicide gameplay.</li><li>It benefits the effect of uneven games by rewarding skilled people over noobs.</li><li>It is one of the many things that can cause turtle-fests for the marines.</li></ul> I want to explain the last point further, because I can't understand people who push this point away, saying there want be another solution to it: The asymmetrical gameplay of ranged vs melee combat induces, that the players of the ranged team can keep them selves alive, if they play careful. The melee team does not have this option. In order to be useful they have to attack in close range and this way they always set them self in full danger of being killed. A marine can play careful or suicidal. An alien always risks everything. There are only very few options for them to keep the play style careful. Thinking of turtling marines, the aliens need to rush into the base to end the game, feeding the marines with res. The marines (if clever) just stay in the safety of the base and kill until all upgrades are there and a push is possible.
One can simply see, that this benefits turtling-fests. And this problem can not be simply solved by other changes. Turtle-fests were a problem in uncountable builds, because of many reasons. (turrets, low alien damage against buildings, weak anti-building lifeforms, etc.) If we have learned anything, than that we should in no way add features, that further increase the possibilities of turtling. Every little change that promotes turtling in some way, will make turtling likelier and I don't think that we want this.
<!--quoteo(post=1936135:date=May 14 2012, 06:39 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 14 2012, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>RFK</b> RFK or some kind of reward4action system is good place to start if we want to tackle this. Even if the gain was very small, it would still help to stagger the lifeforms so that the game doesn't instantly turn on its head. Its affect on timing is a minor issue in my opinion and is actually something that I think should be viewed as an asset. The subtle timing changes add variety and require a layer of awareness from both teams but the strategies are still, for the most part, unchanged. RFK also goes some way to addressing other issues such as scaling - as player counts go up, so does the respool. For the record, I would employ T.res4kill on the marine-side and P.res4kill for aliens. An added benefit from rfk is the sense of contribution it affords. Every marine kill feels valuable for the team and every alien kill comes with a reward for yourself - both are very satisfying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still think RFK could work, it just needs to be done very carefully.
I like the idea of differing systems per side, but you need to switch them. Marines should get P.res for kills (1-5 per type of life form?) and Aliens should get T.res(0.5 per kill?).
This way it ends up being that good marines can buy whatever weapon they choose. Aliens won't get lifeforms any quicker, but the alien comm with decent players could in theory be able to expand quicker. Obviously costs and mechanics would need to be adjusted (some things would cost t.res instead of p.res and vice versa and some things would have their costs increased), but I think it could work and be a lot of fun for both sides without being an overly one sided victory for the team that has good players.
Stop talking about something so unneeded. RFK only gives benefit where there already is benefits derived; killing someone is good for your team. It solves no actual problem and only further creates a negative feedback loop for whichever team gets a slight lead. In the hands of higher alien life forms where they often live for huge sprees this only further imbalances the resource model. If people weren't so nearsighted you'd see the connections that getting kills has with the resource model itself; you kill someone they can't attack your resource tower and you can attack theirs.
It's redundant, doesn't actually solve a thing, and creates a negative experience for players.
Also, TRes per kill for aliens is just pointless. Aliens don't even need TRes compared to marines, it's laughable.
I don't know. Getting 1 P.res per kill doesn't sound like much. 10 kills for 10 P.res is ALOT and that would only give you a minor edge as Kharaa, and even less as Marine.
In return you get that "yay I got 2 res" when you get 2 kills in a row, "yay im ahead of the rest even tho hardly at all", and like "yay look at that little number IN ADDITION to the kill I got yay".
<!--quoteo(post=1936379:date=May 15 2012, 03:55 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ May 15 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Make an upgrade for every higher life form that the alien commander has to research in the hive consecutively. (This way onos will remain late game and fade mid game.)</li><li>Split up the augmentation upgrade to one upgrade for every slot weapon. (One upgrade for blink, one for for leap, etc.)</li><li>Allow the player to buy this upgrades (when researched) additionally to the life form. (Cheaper lerk without bile bomb, more expensive fade with blink, etc.)</li><li>Create a special use and a counter for every life form. (For example: Flamethrower against fades.)</li><li>Increase the health of higher life forms, but decrease the damage. (Longer fights, more reward for better aiming, less frustration with insta-kills.)</li><li>Additionally to increasing upgrade costs, make them actually count. (An onos without upgrades should be a way lesser threat than with upgrades.</li></ul> The last point is actually a real problem. For example, making carapace way stronger will make upgrades like silence useless. I have no solution to that yet, but if we could find a way to make the usefulness of the upgrades even AND increasing their value they could be a real alternative to spend res on instead of saving up for another life form. Maybe every player could adjust how many pRes he will spend on an upgrade, allowing to get stronger carapace or faster camouflage with more pRes. (But this will probably very unintuitive, thinking of skulks with a huge bunch of armor.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like your perspective of the Split up the augmentation and that players could adjust how many times you can use the same ability. but only for offensive skills. Had a similar idea for the new Augmentation.
There should be some visible sign which indicates coming augmentation. There should be nothing that depends only on the 2nd or mature hive. Augmentation could be spectacular low cost Upgrade structure or hive upgrade at first from which commander requires to purchase every offensive abilities. Aliens start with one offensive ability slot. Each hive would give one ability slot. Mature hive could provide additional slot. Allows life forms use single egg freely to select and change the abilities instantly. Aliens could still evolve on the ground same way as now, but would require longer time to hatch. Defensive abilities should be added automatically to life forms after research. You do not lose abilities if the structure/hive dies. only if you also die.
<u>New Augmentation idea</u> <ul><li>Tier 1:Structure or hive upgrade. (10 tRes)</li><li>Upgrade for one additional ability slot. (40 tRes)</li><li>Tier 2-3: Staggered costs for each individual offensive ability for commander to research. (20 Tier2 and 30 tRes for Tier3)</li><li>2nd expensive mature upgrade to unlock all offensive abilities. (+60 tRes)</li></ul> -would force to use 10 tRes in early game. -Aliens would have to expand fast or turtle one hive. -slows down Tech 3 invasion.
<u>Others</u><ul><li>Increase Starting ~10 tRes.</li><li>Slightly delay hive mature state.</li><li>Much stronger mature Harvesters.</li><li>Every mature hive could raise a bit heal and armor for all structures.</li><li>Commander could use own pRes to evolve and upgrade other life forms inside egg's/hive.</li><li>"Maybe every player could adjust how many same abilities he will use, allowing to get stronger carapace or faster camouflage with more ability slots. (But this will probably very unintuitive, thinking of skulks with a huge bunch of armor.)"</li></ul>
<u>Shift</u><ul><li>Shift upgrade could allow drifter's to transform into egg's on the infection. </li><li>Aliens could use egg's and hive to evolve life forms/abilities instantly.</li></ul>
Edit: new plan... I hope this makes some sense now. <u>+1 RFK</u><ul><li>No pRess if dead</li><li>1 tRes from kill?</li><li>2 pRes from buildings</li></ul>This could eliminate the tRes lockdown.
These slot ideas might work. It would take a lot of balancing though, so you don't always get the same exact lifeforms. Making it viable for some players to rush out an early Onos without Stomp or even Fade without Blink... The GUI have to be fast and simple to understand too. Maybe it could remember your last or most frequent evolve options so you don't have to fiddle around every single time (Skulk with Carapace and other no-brainers, like Gorge with Heal Spray - if you have the res and the free slots, and the upgrades are available).
Comments
Taking people off the field is no that important in NS since single units can easily kill multiply units..
NS is a resource and structure game no RFK used to be a big part of it...
I don't think it's anywhere as big of a deal in NS1 as it is in HoN and DotA. I can go into detail if I really have to, but I think the RFK is already distracting the discussion more than enough. As Tweadle mentioned, RFK isn't going to solve anything alone. It's a damn interesting feature and a mighty fine tool, but not the big solution we are looking for.
Upsetting the variance in accrued pres across the team will discourage the chances/frequency of said "explosions" but a halfway coordinated team even in a pub can accomplish the same thing no matter what - <b>so the end result really must be accomplished by other means such as the proposed Rock, Paper, Scissor mechanics shown in roles.</b>i.e. shotgun vs fade, fade can only hurt players not structures, structures can only be healed by welders and gorges etc etc.
This makes it so that a team of lerks would be ineffective or severely lacking in a way that cripples their team to a suicidal point.
If this level of severity cannot be accomplished,<i> all that will be required to ever win is the same lifeform, spammed</i> - creating a very shallow experience.
RFK is nice on paper and i was once for it, but after so much discussion about it over a year there really are too many downsides, and better options available.
Scale-able alien upgrades is definitely the right method.
But this alone wont create much variance - what lerk do you know wouldn't spend a few extra pres for that carapace? <i>So if everyone does it - then once again there's that lack of variance across the team.</i> I suggested in the I & S forums casted upgrades costing pres and lasting a duration of time. This cant be the only idea / option though... brainstorm!
for pubs/new players perhaps there could be something in the buy menu that reflects the overall balance of the alien team. ie: the RPS model. so for example a person buying a lifeform would know if a team is weak against structures & would tell which lifeform would improve the team balance. i dont think lifeform counts would do it as well as a concrete indicator of the effect on the field. this, just might, gently encourage some diversity in lifeform choice. the trick would be to pick the dimensions that would be simple enough & still accurate enough to be useful.
As ironhorse said, swalk did mention this topic for a while. Increasing upgrade costs per life form are a very good change to address this, but are not enough to be the solution. Lets try to evaluate the problem. The marine team has pretty much solved this problem. Besides the GL every weapon has (or should have) a specialized use and a counter. (SG isn't useful for long range, etc.) This way you have many options to spend your pRes on. If it is optimal, than every weapon should cost the same amount of pRes. You will have no weapon that is superior (and more costly) as another weapon. It should be just useful in another way. You could reach this by decreasing the damage of the primary fire of the GL. (But would need to change the model to reflect this to the player.) This way you got the benefit of the grenades against buildings, but with the cost of a smaller and weaker LMG. The flame thrower should have less damage against players, but draining much more adrenaline and being a beast against infestation and setting floors on fire for longer. Every weapon should have a unique use. This way you get diversity and it's the solution to the "tech explosion".
The alien team sure has options too. But they are too few and <b>the price model prevents you from making real decisions.</b> If you have more than 70 pRes, you should choose the onos. It's the strongest life form you can get. If you have 50pRes you choose the fade over the lerk... and so on. The whole price model of increasing value (=increasing strength) destroys any real decision making.
So how to solve this? Making every life form cost the same? (Maybe besides the gorge.) But than you have to make every life form equally strong, you will say. But that is not the full truth. I will state some "probably solutions" short for easier reading:<ul><li>Make an upgrade for every higher life form that the alien commander has to research in the hive consecutively. (This way onos will remain late game and fade mid game.)</li><li>Split up the augmentation upgrade to one upgrade for every slot weapon. (One upgrade for blink, one for for leap, etc.)</li><li>Allow the player to buy this upgrades (when researched) additionally to the life form. (Cheaper lerk without bile bomb, more expensive fade with blink, etc.)</li><li>Create a special use and a counter for every life form. (For example: Flamethrower against fades.)</li><li>Increase the health of higher life forms, but decrease the damage. (Longer fights, more reward for better aiming, less frustration with insta-kills.)</li><li>Additionally to increasing upgrade costs, make them actually count. (An onos without upgrades should be a way lesser threat than with upgrades.</li></ul>
The last point is actually a real problem. For example, making carapace way stronger will make upgrades like silence useless. I have no solution to that yet, but if we could find a way to make the usefulness of the upgrades even AND increasing their value they could be a real alternative to spend res on instead of saving up for another life form. Maybe every player could adjust how many pRes he will spend on an upgrade, allowing to get stronger carapace or faster camouflage with more pRes. (But this will probably very unintuitive, thinking of skulks with a huge bunch of armor.)
Anyway. If we could increase the power of the upgrades, we could bring back pRes-costs to them even for the skulk. Allowing for more options where to spend your pRes AND making the skulk a valid combatant in late game.
This are just a few ideas. But I think I have pointed out the main problem.
<u><b>On the topic of RFK</b></u>
This brings in many problems:<ul><li>It's bad for a team where the default lifeform is based of suicide gameplay.</li><li>It benefits the effect of uneven games by rewarding skilled people over noobs.</li><li>It is one of the many things that can cause turtle-fests for the marines.</li></ul>
I want to explain the last point further, because I can't understand people who push this point away, saying there want be another solution to it:
The asymmetrical gameplay of ranged vs melee combat induces, that the players of the ranged team can keep them selves alive, if they play careful. The melee team does not have this option. In order to be useful they have to attack in close range and this way they always set them self in full danger of being killed. A marine can play careful or suicidal. An alien always risks everything. There are only very few options for them to keep the play style careful.
Thinking of turtling marines, the aliens need to rush into the base to end the game, feeding the marines with res. The marines (if clever) just stay in the safety of the base and kill until all upgrades are there and a push is possible.
One can simply see, that this benefits turtling-fests. And this problem can not be simply solved by other changes. Turtle-fests were a problem in uncountable builds, because of many reasons. (turrets, low alien damage against buildings, weak anti-building lifeforms, etc.) If we have learned anything, than that we should in no way add features, that further increase the possibilities of turtling. Every little change that promotes turtling in some way, will make turtling likelier and I don't think that we want this.
RFK or some kind of reward4action system is good place to start if we want to tackle this. Even if the gain was very small, it would still help to stagger the lifeforms so that the game doesn't instantly turn on its head. Its affect on timing is a minor issue in my opinion and is actually something that I think should be viewed as an asset. The subtle timing changes add variety and require a layer of awareness from both teams but the strategies are still, for the most part, unchanged. RFK also goes some way to addressing other issues such as scaling - as player counts go up, so does the respool. For the record, I would employ T.res4kill on the marine-side and P.res4kill for aliens. An added benefit from rfk is the sense of contribution it affords. Every marine kill feels valuable for the team and every alien kill comes with a reward for yourself - both are very satisfying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still think RFK could work, it just needs to be done very carefully.
I like the idea of differing systems per side, but you need to switch them. Marines should get P.res for kills (1-5 per type of life form?) and Aliens should get T.res(0.5 per kill?).
This way it ends up being that good marines can buy whatever weapon they choose. Aliens won't get lifeforms any quicker, but the alien comm with decent players could in theory be able to expand quicker. Obviously costs and mechanics would need to be adjusted (some things would cost t.res instead of p.res and vice versa and some things would have their costs increased), but I think it could work and be a lot of fun for both sides without being an overly one sided victory for the team that has good players.
It's redundant, doesn't actually solve a thing, and creates a negative experience for players.
Also, TRes per kill for aliens is just pointless. Aliens don't even need TRes compared to marines, it's laughable.
In return you get that "yay I got 2 res" when you get 2 kills in a row, "yay im ahead of the rest even tho hardly at all", and like "yay look at that little number IN ADDITION to the kill I got yay".
Buuuuut whatever. Don't really miss RFK.
The last point is actually a real problem. For example, making carapace way stronger will make upgrades like silence useless. I have no solution to that yet, but if we could find a way to make the usefulness of the upgrades even AND increasing their value they could be a real alternative to spend res on instead of saving up for another life form. Maybe every player could adjust how many pRes he will spend on an upgrade, allowing to get stronger carapace or faster camouflage with more pRes. (But this will probably very unintuitive, thinking of skulks with a huge bunch of armor.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like your perspective of the Split up the augmentation and that players could adjust how many times you can use the same ability. but only for offensive skills.
Had a similar idea for the new Augmentation.
There should be some visible sign which indicates coming augmentation.
There should be nothing that depends only on the 2nd or mature hive.
Augmentation could be spectacular low cost Upgrade structure or hive upgrade at first from which commander requires to purchase every offensive abilities.
Aliens start with one offensive ability slot.
Each hive would give one ability slot. Mature hive could provide additional slot.
Allows life forms use single egg freely to select and change the abilities instantly.
Aliens could still evolve on the ground same way as now, but would require longer time to hatch.
Defensive abilities should be added automatically to life forms after research.
You do not lose abilities if the structure/hive dies. only if you also die.
<u>New Augmentation idea</u>
<ul><li>Tier 1:Structure or hive upgrade. (10 tRes)</li><li>Upgrade for one additional ability slot. (40 tRes)</li><li>Tier 2-3: Staggered costs for each individual offensive ability for commander to research. (20 Tier2 and 30 tRes for Tier3)</li><li>2nd expensive mature upgrade to unlock all offensive abilities. (+60 tRes)</li></ul>
-would force to use 10 tRes in early game.
-Aliens would have to expand fast or turtle one hive.
-slows down Tech 3 invasion.
<u>Others</u><ul><li>Increase Starting ~10 tRes.</li><li>Slightly delay hive mature state.</li><li>Much stronger mature Harvesters.</li><li>Every mature hive could raise a bit heal and armor for all structures.</li><li>Commander could use own pRes to evolve and upgrade other life forms inside egg's/hive.</li><li>"Maybe every player could adjust how many same abilities he will use, allowing to get stronger carapace or faster camouflage with more ability slots. (But this will probably very unintuitive, thinking of skulks with a huge bunch of armor.)"</li></ul>
<u>Shift</u><ul><li>Shift upgrade could allow drifter's to transform into egg's on the infection.
</li><li>Aliens could use egg's and hive to evolve life forms/abilities instantly.</li></ul>
Edit: new plan... I hope this makes some sense now.
<u>+1 RFK</u><ul><li>No pRess if dead</li><li>1 tRes from kill?</li><li>2 pRes from buildings</li></ul>This could eliminate the tRes lockdown.