Why jetpacks suck
Champlo0
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Members
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Members
First off, how much res does it cost to get jetpacks? Let's count
10 for armory
20 more for advanced armory (which takes 60 seconds to research)
30 for proto lab
25 for jetpacks (which take 90 seconds to research)
So thats 55 tres for jetpacks. And that's for rushing them too, not that it's a good strategy. But this doesn't highlight the real problem with jetpacks.
Jetpacks are <b>slow</b>, i<b>nefficient</b>, and there's often nowhere to actually <b>USE</b> the jetpack to your advantage. Let's take summit for example.
Nearly every hallway has NOTHING to get on top of; once your jetpack fuel runs out, and it's going to run out REAL quick because of how inefficient it is, you're going to fall right back into that Onos that's rampaging everywhere. This isn't to say that it's just a map problem, but it's also a mechanic problem. Mappers wouldn't have to cater so much to thinking about how jetpacks are going to affect their maps if the jetpack wasn't so atrociously inefficient. I haven't played NS1, but I've often heard people vouch about how good that jetpack was. What ever happened to that idea? I know exosuit is also going to be researched from proto lab, but come on. It only costs aliens 40 res to get carapace and 25 for augment, that's only 10 less than it costs for the overall cost of getting jetpacks. That isn't to say that it isn't a problem with the lack of alien res sinks but come on, 55 res for something that's only useful HALF the time? And often times the RT areas don't even have places you can jetpack onto like reactor core.
Why do jetpacks have to be so inefficient for something that is suppose to help us counter the massive alien behemoth that is the Onos?
10 for armory
20 more for advanced armory (which takes 60 seconds to research)
30 for proto lab
25 for jetpacks (which take 90 seconds to research)
So thats 55 tres for jetpacks. And that's for rushing them too, not that it's a good strategy. But this doesn't highlight the real problem with jetpacks.
Jetpacks are <b>slow</b>, i<b>nefficient</b>, and there's often nowhere to actually <b>USE</b> the jetpack to your advantage. Let's take summit for example.
Nearly every hallway has NOTHING to get on top of; once your jetpack fuel runs out, and it's going to run out REAL quick because of how inefficient it is, you're going to fall right back into that Onos that's rampaging everywhere. This isn't to say that it's just a map problem, but it's also a mechanic problem. Mappers wouldn't have to cater so much to thinking about how jetpacks are going to affect their maps if the jetpack wasn't so atrociously inefficient. I haven't played NS1, but I've often heard people vouch about how good that jetpack was. What ever happened to that idea? I know exosuit is also going to be researched from proto lab, but come on. It only costs aliens 40 res to get carapace and 25 for augment, that's only 10 less than it costs for the overall cost of getting jetpacks. That isn't to say that it isn't a problem with the lack of alien res sinks but come on, 55 res for something that's only useful HALF the time? And often times the RT areas don't even have places you can jetpack onto like reactor core.
Why do jetpacks have to be so inefficient for something that is suppose to help us counter the massive alien behemoth that is the Onos?
Comments
That's what I meant by inefficient, but I can't really say how exactly it is, other than inefficient.
At the moment its just a luxury upgrade that can be upgraded when the game is almost already won.
Besides that, i feel like jetpack really hurt your ability to move around properly in CQC making it a 10 pres waste vs skulks. They have a slow/clunky feel.
Partially it is also a map issue of course, in the summit hallways the onos can still hit you even if you are flying next to the ceiling and there are little good places to get into with the jetpacks (except vents).
Hit spacebar once and hold to hover a few foot off the floor, and move quickly round the map at a set height. This has a slow burn time.
Hit it again and hold (so double tap and hold) and you fly upwards until you release and either.
1. Double tap to gain height again.
2. Tap and hold to go back to hover height.
Hit spacebar once and hold to hover a few foot off the floor, and move quickly round the map at a set height. This has a slow burn time.
Hit it again and hold (so double tap and hold) and you fly upwards until you release and either.
1. Double tap to gain height again.
2. Tap and hold to go back to hover height.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would probably just be a bit more intuitive to have it do the glide when you hold down shift while in the air than use a double tap mechanic. (like the horrid days of shadowstep)
I would like to see them be vertical climb and "jump" modes.
<b>Vertical climb</b> - Would be from walking/stationary hold down space and climb rapidly upwards, then climb in the direction of the wasd keys.
<b>Jump mode</b> - Would be <i>rapid </i>horizontal "Bounding" for rapid movement across a map. While sprinting, you would hit space and time your arc path, release the space and time it so when you land you do another leap. And like the skulk wall jumping, the art of bounding would allow for skilled movement across the map.
Right now, you sort of get the bound effect but it still feels to slow and not very nimble. And I assume the jump pack is supposed to let marines move more quickly and reach vertical spaces.
They were properly tuned in NS; you could zip around really quickly for medium distances with excellent air control; they made you immune to stomp and you could outrun the onos if it didn't get a jump on you; you could take the same shortcuts through vents that skulks used.
NS2 maps need less clutter and obstructions so you can slide against most walls and ceilings without getting caught on something. But that's not just for JP; that's for walljumping, leap, blink and just fast paced gameplay in general. You don't need to simplify the visual appearance, you just need to add clip hulls to smooth out the smaller obstructions.
1) You move fast enough to stay out of an Onos reach while shooting at it the same time. If you dont hold jump the whole time and focus on horizontal movement you can almost get always far enough to find some for of barricade like a metal fence to fly over. Which gives you more time to shoot, back up on foot as your jet pack regenerates very quickly.
2) its a great panic button against skuls when your not in a hall way (can't be great in every room) as you become suspended in the air, being able to scare off what attack you with bullets long enough to regen more back pack. Or perhaps your team mate kills it as you fly to safety. Are simply the best when your have a base fight. You can fly on their hive and you can fly on to your own building defending. (base rooms also tend to have higher ceiling)
3) It costs Mr. joe smoe marie 10 personal res to buy a jetpack, half the price of a shotgun that; which is extraodinary in consideration that I find jetpacks more useful than any gun I could purchase.
Unlinking Armory as a requirement for Prototype Lab would get my vote
I think jetpacks are fairly bad too, but it's more of a critique on the maps having low ceilings or no place to land when you get up high
Good players ask for jetpacks all the time on Mineshaft and more upgrades are coming so maybe they'll actually let you get out of reach even in tight quarters
Unlinking Armory as a requirement for Prototype Lab would get my vote
I think jetpacks are fairly bad too, but it's more of a critique on the maps having low ceilings or no place to land when you get up high
Good players ask for jetpacks all the time on Mineshaft and more upgrades are coming so maybe they'll actually let you get out of reach even in tight quarters<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea jetpacks are most useful in mineshaft but they're still pretty limited to use quite often in the chokehold of belt transfer and cart tunnels (though rare is cart tunnels fought over).
1) You move fast enough to stay out of an Onos reach while shooting at it the same time. If you dont hold jump the whole time and focus on horizontal movement you can almost get always far enough to find some for of barricade like a metal fence to fly over. Which gives you more time to shoot, back up on foot as your jet pack regenerates very quickly.
2) its a great panic button against skuls when your not in a hall way (can't be great in every room) as you become suspended in the air, being able to scare off what attack you with bullets long enough to regen more back pack. Or perhaps your team mate kills it as you fly to safety. Are simply the best when your have a base fight. You can fly on their hive and you can fly on to your own building defending. (base rooms also tend to have higher ceiling)
3) It costs Mr. joe smoe marie 10 personal res to buy a jetpack, half the price of a shotgun that; which is extraodinary in consideration that I find jetpacks more useful than any gun I could purchase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regen what. What game are we playing again? Anyways I don't think you've realized yet but almost every hallway or room <b>sucks</b> for getting on top of something or jetting to some sort of safety; all it often does is delay death. As per your 1) that's the main point of jetpacks, but as I stated, there's very few places for you to take cover in.
As for use, well Ive even watched a single marine use a JP flamer combo and solo an Onos(3v3 muck around game, chased him for half the map but still). It wasn't till I went Onos that I relised just how painful JP flamer marines are. When you can't regen and can't escape it's crazy. I barely managed to kill one marine on the ground before I had to run away with no energy and was chased down by the JP's and killed.
Onos have very little energy to use when using stomp, and with one stomp plus 3 impales, they are already out of energy. With out the ability to regen because your on fire, your a sitting duck. Against JP marine's you usually have to turn tail and run very quickly because it's just not worth staying around.
Fades who teleport in and get hit by a grenade while the marine is flying off above them usually dissapear just as quick as they came.
JP's I think are a mandatory item, that should be obtained early or the moment an Onos is sighted. Hell I think JP's should be obtained before phase tech even. Why? Because there is no point trying to phase through a gate when there are Onos and fades on the other side(or any aggressive alien for that matter). What good does it do you if you can't fight the aliens on the other side? At least with JP's you can run at the gate hit the space bar and come out the other side launching into the air, and can usually get clear to start shooting the aliens without dieing(well not instantly).
Don't under estimate JP's, they are really good.
As for use, well Ive even watched a single marine use a JP flamer combo and solo an Onos(3v3 muck around game, chased him for half the map but still). It wasn't till I went Onos that I relised just how painful JP flamer marines are. When you can't regen and can't escape it's crazy. I barely managed to kill one marine on the ground before I had to run away with no energy and was chased down by the JP's and killed.
Onos have very little energy to use when using stomp, and with one stomp plus 3 impales, they are already out of energy. With out the ability to regen because your on fire, your a sitting duck. Against JP marine's you usually have to turn tail and run very quickly because it's just not worth staying around.
Fades who teleport in and get hit by a grenade while the marine is flying off above them usually dissapear just as quick as they came.
JP's I think are a mandatory item, that should be obtained early or the moment an Onos is sighted. Hell I think JP's should be obtained before phase tech even. Why? Because there is no point trying to phase through a gate when there are Onos and fades on the other side(or any aggressive alien for that matter). What good does it do you if you can't fight the aliens on the other side? At least with JP's you can run at the gate hit the space bar and come out the other side launching into the air, and can usually get clear to start shooting the aliens without dieing(well not instantly).
Don't under estimate JP's, they are really good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously? You think we haven't used jetpacks? Why would we complain about something we have never tried? Secondly this argument for flamethrowers is ridiculous. Flamethrowers are the most expensive item to buy for marines, and to research as I have stated in many of my posts. You also fail to address the points about maps, which are some of the main problems with jetpacks. Not every area is some giant wide open cliffside with millions of things to get on top of, most of it is a small hallway where Onos can still get you. Third, the jetpack isn't meant to only counter Onos. It's meant to be an answer to pretty much every alien aside from Lerks. It doesn't do that job very well either; aiming is more difficult and clunky because of the inefficiency of the jetpack.
I have tried jetpacks as a commander, and rarely have they enabled us to combat Onos effectively, or bring a boost to our combat ability for as much resources that they cost.
I'd also like to mention that some of the upcoming maps have some larger spaces that make jetpacks more useful, more so then on Tram and Summit. Of course there is always going to need to be a balance of open spaces and tighter closed in areas, because making the majority of areas in maps large and open and high ceilinged enough for jetpackers to have total freedom creates a whole host of other gameplay issues.
The purpose of jetpacks has always been to allow marines to traverse the map more quickly, and to allow for additional maneuverability in combat, not to be able to fly around completely with impunity, easily avoiding all alien attacks.
--Cory
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Why do jetpacks have to be so inefficient for something that is suppose to help us counter the massive alien behemoth that is the Onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly dont see this problem. Jetpacks arn't this terrible although its not to say they're perfect. They have alot of potential already when you use them well - its not always about trying to get ontop of something. They're not as good as the ns1 jp, but they still require some level of movement skill and awareness. 55 tres also isnt alot when compared to arms lab path or ARC path. Don't think you can look at alien upgrades and make that comparison when the tech trees are totally different.
jp's counter every alien class with the exception of lerk. I suggest practicing jp more. We probably don't see it as often in competitive matches because of the dominance of grenade launcher.
Also, I often command and on Summit if our start is Flight Control and theirs is Atrium, I will immediately begin a fast tech to Jetpack. Fly over crevice, through the big corridor and your pretty much in the hive. Add some nano shields and you cant lose.
I also credited one of my other wins due to the ability to take down Crossroads hive from our start at Sub because we were able to Jetpack over the small gap just north of the right hand side of Marine Spawn which let us bypass all of the other members of the alien team and their defenses.
The NS1 jetpack felt a bit OP.
I remember jetpacking around a hive just shooting at it with LMG until it was dead.
Like most of the discussions I read on subjects of usefulness and balance, the answer lies somewhere in the middle, and is largely dependent on individual player skill.
I'm not sure if they've made changes to the physics of the JP since release, but when they first came out they felt, as described above, slow and clunky; Not at all like the rapid air movement I was used to from NS1. Now I feel pretty good flying around. I'm able to get faster than sprinting speeds, even through tight hallways.
I think they plan to release upgrades for the JP's eventually with things like increased fuel and maybe speed? Or jp's coupled with catalyze packs could provide the same functionality. I'm hoping this eventually balances out for longer games where you get to delve deeper into teching and specializing, and not ending up with a ton of resources that you can't really spend on anything but arcs.