<!--quoteo(post=1935693:date=May 12 2012, 09:23 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 12 2012, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Starcraft is not assymetric. Strategy games are not assymetric. They can't be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chess is not asymmetric, Starcraft is as long as the units/techs are not carbon copies of eachother, just to name the basics.
<!--quoteo(post=1935695:date=May 12 2012, 08:29 PM:name=Maukka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Maukka @ May 12 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chess is not asymmetric, Starcraft is as long as the units/techs are not carbon copies of eachother, just to name the basics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then so is Counter-strike asymmetric, just as Half life is a role playing game.
I don't think I have ever posted on these forums even though I played NS since the beginning and even became a constellation member. After reading this topic I was shocked at the logic of the OP. While I only exclusively play Alien on NS2 I think Onos being "overpowered" is a requirement.
Currently, Marines are completely dominate over the Aliens at every aspect of the game. Every Alien lifeform compared to it's NS1 counterpart is weak in damage and health/armor. If you were to nerf Onos's then nothing would be able to stop a Marine turtle in base.
An easy strat that Marines do currently to win is just rush all Alien res towers since they are so quick for them to kill until the Commander cannot afford anymore.
The fix has to do with res towers and power nodes. Why does a Marine kill a res tower 2-3x as fast as a Skulk? Why are Power Node's almost instantly rebuilt when it takes an eternity to kill them?
I did like the suggestion of making the power node disable all buildings but IP's this allows Marines to put up a defense while still being in trouble. But to compensate, power node's need to be more easily killed or they need to take quite a long time to rebuild (not 15 second wait period). That, I believe, would solve the power node problem.
As for res towers, just make them both equal in destruction time. So either increase Alien res tower defense or decrease marine. Marines also get the blue shield though which allows a building to take 50% less damage while skulks get... nothing? Unless you want to build an umbra machine next to EVERY res tower.
For the Onos fix, Onos' should be nerfed only if other alien lifeforms are compensated. Buff Lerk + Fade health + armor. In return, make it so you can only have 2 Onos's per 6 players. You could also lower their armor and health. This would make them less disposable and more strategic.
While this next part goes a little off topic I think it has very serious impact on the current state of Onos's.
But a MAJOR problem I think right now with making balancing near impossible is that Alien's have no movement chambers. In NS1 in 99% of games where players were more than "NSPlayer" you went movement chamber first. This allowed you to easily defend hives/locations. Currently Aliens lack mobility in being able to control the map where Marines have phasegates.
So what else can Aliens do but turtle and mass Onos's? It is very hard to support a hive when all Marines have to do is Divide and Conquer the path since they know alien's can't teleport there.
While I do like the introduction of power nodes, they need to be a more powerful asset around the map and less powerful where a CC is present. When Aliens kill a power node at a res location it should be BLACK, there should be no backup generator to ever come on, this would at least make use of a flashlight. This would also allow Aliens to more safely kill Res Towers.
The simple fact is, people who complain about Onos's have no idea what serious power Aliens lack compared to NS1. A MAJOR blow to Aliens was the lost of Bunny Hopping. This hopping off walls bullsh*t is no compensation. Get rid of wall hopping and just do what Valve did with TF2 Scouts. Give us the speed we would have if were able to bunnyhop.
The second blow is the Fade + Lerk health and armor loss.
And the third blow is no movement chambers.
Onos's are the only way for aliens to have a chance at victory currently. When the 3 major problems are fixed, then Onos's should and can be nerfed. Until then, sorry, we need the crutch.
<!--quoteo(post=1935703:date=May 12 2012, 12:06 PM:name=conscript)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (conscript @ May 12 2012, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think I have ever posted on these forums even though I played NS since the beginning and even became a constellation member. After reading this topic I was shocked at the logic of the OP. <b>While I only exclusively play Alien on NS2 I think Onos being "overpowered" is a requirement.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stopped reading there
<!--quoteo(post=1935705:date=May 12 2012, 12:09 PM:name=conscript)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (conscript @ May 12 2012, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then don't post on these forums if you won't be open minded.
Enough close-minded ###### in this world like you, don't need them invading our hobbies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol I'm sorry I don't bother reading posts of someone who plays only alien and is arguing for the side of the alien. Come back when you've actually played equal amounts of both sides. Enough idiots like you who think playing one side makes you knowledgeable about the other.
<!--quoteo(post=1935706:date=May 12 2012, 07:12 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 12 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol I'm sorry I don't bother reading posts of someone who plays only alien and is arguing for the side of the alien. Come back when you've actually played equal amounts of both sides. Enough idiots like you who think playing one side makes you knowledgeable about the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come back when your account wasn't made in 2012 and you're new to the scene. Get some experience under your belt, please. Thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=1935707:date=May 12 2012, 12:15 PM:name=conscript)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (conscript @ May 12 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Come back when your account wasn't made in 2012 and you're new to the scene. Get some experience under your belt, please. Thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have more experience than you in actually playing marine LOL
<!--quoteo(post=1935711:date=May 12 2012, 12:20 PM:name=conscript)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (conscript @ May 12 2012, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If he's playing the "LOL You played since 2007 and you never played Marines!".
Want me to go into the "I played Marines, I was even cal-i NS during its competitive period"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Want me to go into the <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I only exclusively play Alien on NS2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's not much point in playing anything between Skulk and Onos right now. That's not because the Onos is overpowered, but more because the Lerk/Fade (Gorge is a whole 'nother problem) have been whacked so much with the nerf-bat that you can do more as a Skulk than Lerk/Fade.
And seriously Champloo, just quiet down. After you tried defending the current iteration of bile bomb and Lerk speed yesterday while going on about how you were one of the top posters on the forums, I kinda just /facepalmed and let you go.
No one is boasting about being a "top poster", lmao. Good fades are pretty amazing, by the way. Just one dedicated fade can wreck a push if it works with a teammate; unfortunately there's a lot of solo mentality that's preferred among people instead of trying to collaborate. Lerks are alright now, they can still harass bases just not to the retardedly powerful point of the pre bile bomb nerf and are killable while still maintaining quite a bit of power, that might change with the optimization but for now I see them as alright. Fades can't shadowstep into a group of marines with one or two shotguns easily as well, and they never should be able to. Nothing is really wrong with the Fade or the Lerk in my opinion. However, it would be nice to stay on topic per the Onos, just a thought.
<!--quoteo(post=1935697:date=May 12 2012, 09:32 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 12 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then so is Counter-strike asymmetric, just as Half life is a role playing game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes there is small asymmetry in counter-strike with the terrorist team either defending hostages or planting bombs and counter-terrorists undoing that. The weapons are mostly reskinned clones of eachother but there are some small differences. Do you have a point to make?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1935703:date=May 12 2012, 08:06 PM:name=conscript)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (conscript @ May 12 2012, 08:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently, Marines are completely dominate over the Aliens at every aspect of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, this is not the case. Aliens currently dominate balanced matchups. Don't pretend to be presenting facts when you aren't.
<!--quoteo(post=1935711:date=May 12 2012, 08:20 PM:name=conscript)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (conscript @ May 12 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If he's playing the "LOL You played since 2007 and you never played Marines!".
Want me to go into the "I played Marines, I was even cal-i NS during its competitive period"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're both idiots, congratulations.
<!--quoteo(post=1935742:date=May 12 2012, 06:19 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ May 12 2012, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, this is not the case. Aliens currently dominate balanced matchups. Don't pretend to be presenting facts when you aren't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno. It would be very easy to make the argument that Marines do dominate the early game right now. Especially with the nerfed RT health, an aggressive Marine team can put some serious strain on the Alien economy. I've been seeing plenty of Alien comms rage lately because their RTs keep going down before anyone gets to them.
The problem right now seems to be that the Marines just can't carry the momentum into the mid to late game. This is also the time where, I assume, exo-suits would normally be coming out. When exo-suits are finally implemented then Marines will have a proper transition into the mid-late game.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1935745:date=May 12 2012, 10:31 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 12 2012, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno. It would be very easy to make the argument that Marines do dominate the early game right now. Especially with the nerfed RT health, an aggressive Marine team can put some serious strain on the Alien economy. I've been seeing plenty of Alien comms rage lately because their RTs keep going down before anyone gets to them.
The problem right now seems to be that the Marines just can't carry the momentum into the mid to late game. This is also the time where, I assume, exo-suits would normally be coming out. When exo-suits are finally implemented then Marines will have a proper transition into the mid-late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exo suits are not midgame tech, nor are they some sort of magical panacea that will fix all that ails this game.
It doesn't matter that killing alien harvesters is relatively easy for the marines, when the aliens end up winning anyway, in large part because marines have no way to effectively deal with onii. Competitive play is a cheese party in this version because it is nearly impossible to win with conventional strategies as marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1935750:date=May 12 2012, 06:49 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ May 12 2012, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exo suits are not midgame tech, nor are they some sort of magical panacea that will fix all that ails this game.
It doesn't matter that killing alien harvesters is relatively easy for the marines, when the aliens end up winning anyway, in large part because marines have no way to effectively deal with onii. Competitive play is a cheese party in this version because it is nearly impossible to win with conventional strategies as marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once third hive abilities are added in, there really shouldn't be any reason for Onos doing double damage to Power Nodes anymore. It's just that right now power nodes are literally the only thing preventing 1-2 hour games that happened in previous builds and usually emptied the server. I'm going to laugh if someone argues that the power node situation isn't the reason why Onos has become FotM for bashing, because no one mentioned it before this build and the only thing it got this build other than the power node damage increase was a slight increase to run speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1935666:date=May 12 2012, 04:52 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ May 12 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we please stop this kind of attitude? It is such a presumptuous me me me me attitude for a community member. It makes me gag. They made the game ... they are building a company ... they care about its success and playability way more than you do or ever will.
I like the fact that when marines are all turtle-rific ... I have an option to choose to change the status of the game. Play aliens more (I play both sides each patch) and you will understand why a huge amount of players will go Onos midgame.
A fade is a fun investment .... but it is not a game changer in everyones hands. A lerk results in a couple harassing flybys ... and a shotgun to the face. An Onos can destroy turrets, power nodes, anything in that forward base. That turret everyone kept dieing under ... gone. That armory that was keeping them full of bullets ... gone. You actually get the feeling you did something awesome with your spawn. (The whole reason you play games)
Before arguing for change it is always best to understand BOTH sides of the problem.
The Problem: from the marines perspective the power node feels like a one button kill for a base. Additionally the Onus seems to be designed to take out this device. Alien Perspective: They are relieved that they have such an option in their repertoire.
The Suggested Solution: Remove Power Nodes or Nerf Onii so all they can do ... is get shot. The problems with the suggested solution: No counter would exist for the turtling strategy. The turtling strategy would become the always used strategy. The game would become boring. Nobody would play the Onus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This:
<!--quoteo(post=1935674:date=May 12 2012, 05:08 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 12 2012, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"the power node feels like a one button kill for a base". It practically is. Everything but the command chair is unpowered when the node goes down, so explain to me how it doesn't shut down the entire base?
Oh and you wanna know what the counter to turtling is? The face that if marines are turtling it means that they're either
A. Sieging the alien base B. Already lost and just prolonging their death
So in B it's more than likely the lack of an alien coordinated effort to take down everything. Onos stomp disables turrets, Gorges can heal the Onos, Fades kill marines, and Lerks can blind marines, and mess up turrets along the way. So explain to me, why it is so far-fetched, so game-breaking, to make the structure that powers almost everything the marines use, their spawning, their advanced weapons, their armor, their turrets they spent 10 tres on each, explain to me what is so far-fetched about making the structure that powers almost everything the marines use durable? Do aliens have a structure that stops eggs from spawning that doesn't lose the game for them? Hell, you may as well make it gameover for marines when their main power node goes down automatically 90% of the time because they've probably lost.
Oh and no one would play the Onos? Why? Is something unappealing about a life form with a huge AoE disable and high structure damage? Something that can disable phase gates, turrets, everything marines build? Is there another life form that disables them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
King you are arguing to have a win button because the alien team cant win by teamwork and playing the game right. There is no other option than going FOR the power node because anything else takes too long to either kill or isn't a viable option. If UWE would actually take to ensure marines couldn't survive on 1 rt or the opposite team holding ever effing node on the map would have such an overwhelming advantage turtling wouldn't be a problem. No need for a noob win button. PERIOD.
When it comes to Oni the other lifeforms aren't needed mid game as they used to be in NS1 so there is no reason NOT to save for onos.
All in all i am sick of fan boys. UWE is doing a blatantly crappy job at this sequel and the only thing helping them with the general public now is that this game is unique enough to forgive other elements or it takes more than a couple play throughs to get even the depth of NS2. If you have played NS1 i cant see how you can say NS2 even comes close. They should have took NS1. Port it to Spark. THEN change and add stuff. Instead of building a solid foundation they made it with plastic and built on it. No wonder the house is falling apart now... Power nodes need to go the way of their other dumb ideas: Multiple commanders and the taser. Only thing keeping power nodes is immersion (light switch). What angers me most is their hypocrisy. They take out devour for noble reason and add a knock down to the standard oni attack AND the stupid stomp that does the same thing but with no damage but a aoe cone (plus disable buildings). No skill life form ftw.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1935754:date=May 12 2012, 03:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 12 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->King you are arguing to <u>have a win button because the alien team cant win by teamwork</u> and playing the game right. There is no other option than going FOR the power node because anything else takes too long to either kill or isn't a viable option. If UWE would actually take to ensure marines couldn't survive on 1 rt or the opposite team holding ever effing node on the map would have such an overwhelming advantage turtling wouldn't be a problem. No need for a noob win button. PERIOD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Do you feel better knowing some Play testers are talking about how to make power nodes more purposeful/useful/needed? <!--quoteo(post=1935754:date=May 12 2012, 03:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 12 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When it comes to Oni the other lifeforms aren't needed mid game as they used to be in NS1 so there is no reason NOT to save for onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Disagree completely. It isnt nearly as bad as you put it here. Yes its not perfect and the timings/balance/features arent in yet to help, but you still need other lifeforms mid game right now against a competent marine team. (changing starting pres will help this further, so lets wait) <!--quoteo(post=1935754:date=May 12 2012, 03:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 12 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All in all i am sick of fan boys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are in NS2 forums.. what did you expect, Nintendo fanboys? There's enough negativity going on around these forums to say that a few fanboys aren't doing much harm besides instigating those who are looking for a place to complain / air frustrations. <!--quoteo(post=1935754:date=May 12 2012, 03:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 12 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They take out devour for noble reason and add a knock down to the standard oni attack AND the stupid stomp that does the same thing but with no damage but a aoe cone (plus disable buildings).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Knock down does not occur with gore, currently. As for your desire for NS1:spark, xDragon is already making a mod, go that route if it suits you. But know that currently he has no plans to fix the resource model's lack of scaling so it will be for 6 v 6 only.
<!--quoteo(post=1935817:date=May 13 2012, 12:13 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 13 2012, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->changing starting pres will help this further, so lets wait<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Changing the starting pres will shift timings, not the mass quantity problem. The constant in every Alien QQ thread for the past two months has been about the quantity of [insert fotm lifeform here]. First it was mass Fades. Then it was mass Lerks. Gorges don't count as real lifeforms. Now it's mass Onos. Timings are not going to change the "mass" part of the problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1935817:date=May 13 2012, 03:13 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 13 2012, 03:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. Do you feel better knowing some Play testers are talking about how to make power nodes more purposeful/useful/needed?
Disagree completely. It isnt nearly as bad as you put it here. Yes its not perfect and the timings/balance/features arent in yet to help, but you still need other lifeforms mid game right now against a competent marine team. (changing starting pres will help this further, so lets wait)
You are in NS2 forums.. what did you expect, Nintendo fanboys? There's enough negativity going on around these forums to say that a few fanboys aren't doing much harm besides instigating those who are looking for a place to complain / air frustrations.
Knock down does not occur with gore, currently. As for your desire for NS1:spark, xDragon is already making a mod, go that route if it suits you. But know that currently he has no plans to fix the resource model's lack of scaling so it will be for 6 v 6 only.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hear you Iron, i do. I respect your ideas as a poster and sometimes agree =) and i know i am no longer being helpful with my posts. I apologize for wasting people time with my rants. The wife stares blankly at me when i ###### about this game and my dog licks himself (whatever that means, the jerk) so i am left with this forum. I have read so many well thought out, well written posts it angers me certain things are still in the game and broken. I also get angry at how much UWE is using competitive scrims to sell this game when they don't do enough to help it balance wise.
All i am left with is frustration now a days at many games out there. So it stings just that much more when the creators of arguably my favorite game tarnish it's sequel (imo) for flashy graphics and cinematic sequences.
I could have swore Gore caused a knock down. I know it used too and if it was removed that is awesome. Another good thing would be to remove the building disable from Stomp. 2 Oni can easily lock down a forward phase gate not even allowing one phase and marines should be able to dodge it by jumping.
Side note, i don't put stock in icons. The only icon i really respected (besides the dev one because we have to) was the vet icon. Playtesters do a rough tedious job that many couldn't do, but it doesn't add anything to the value of their argument. I respect name, not the icon because of past posts and how they are well written/thought out.
<!--quoteo(post=1935820:date=May 13 2012, 03:40 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 13 2012, 03:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only icon i really respected (besides the dev one because we have to) was the vet icon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? You know you could get those at the drop of a hat back in the old days right? I guess it at least tells you someone has played NS1 for an extended amount of time, a bar many on this forum don't even reach anymore.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Yea marines will be able to jump stomp again as a counter.
And i understand what ya mean, man. The balance will really be focused after the game is considered feature complete by the devs though, and i think thats really when we'll see people happy and maybe even more vocal (hopefully in constructive means) but ofc this is all after performance increases make their way in.
Hope to see your ideas more, Rising. :) (want to hear what you have to say on my alien upgrades in I&S, its a bit on the edge as far as ideas go)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1935817:date=May 13 2012, 04:13 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 13 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for your desire for NS1:spark, xDragon is already making a mod, go that route if it suits you. But know that currently he has no plans to fix the resource model's lack of scaling so it will be for 6 v 6 only.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Rubbish. Scaling only became a problem in ns1 at 12v12 and above.
I played public 14v14 games for mouths and I never noticed anything wrong with the balance/scaling to be frank. So I don't think this kind of things are a big problem for the average pub player.
<!--quoteo(post=1935868:date=May 13 2012, 09:52 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 13 2012, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played public 14v14 games for mouths and I never noticed anything wrong with the balance/scaling to be frank. So I don't think this kind of things are a big problem for the average pub player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines did hold an advantage at that point simply because the commander managed all their resources and tech upgrades went a lot further with the Marines. Aliens on the other hand shared their resources so each player was getting less. Aliens at least could make up for that with a higher skill cap and some amazing Fades before the blink nerf could essentially shutdown the enemy team with Focus and Meta.
Gods how I'd kill for Meta and Focus swipes back. None of this stab bull###### where you spend 30 minutes in an animation and move so slow that you might as well be super glued to the floor while the Marine watches the entire LotR extended edition trilogy before crawling away and taunting you.
Heres an Idea i had about the power nodes, what if the tech points didnt have them, and teh CC/HIVE were the things that powered it? and I would like to see the hive/CC health feel more like the first game and not like some standard building. it seems to easy to kill them, ive played a game where right in the beginning 3 skulks took out our cc before we even had a chance to run back, the hive can go down just as easy. just my opinion is all. But I wish we could try the no power node in tech points.
Comments
Chess is not asymmetric, Starcraft is as long as the units/techs are not carbon copies of eachother, just to name the basics.
Then so is Counter-strike asymmetric, just as Half life is a role playing game.
Currently, Marines are completely dominate over the Aliens at every aspect of the game. Every Alien lifeform compared to it's NS1 counterpart is weak in damage and health/armor. If you were to nerf Onos's then nothing would be able to stop a Marine turtle in base.
An easy strat that Marines do currently to win is just rush all Alien res towers since they are so quick for them to kill until the Commander cannot afford anymore.
The fix has to do with res towers and power nodes. Why does a Marine kill a res tower 2-3x as fast as a Skulk? Why are Power Node's almost instantly rebuilt when it takes an eternity to kill them?
I did like the suggestion of making the power node disable all buildings but IP's this allows Marines to put up a defense while still being in trouble. But to compensate, power node's need to be more easily killed or they need to take quite a long time to rebuild (not 15 second wait period). That, I believe, would solve the power node problem.
As for res towers, just make them both equal in destruction time. So either increase Alien res tower defense or decrease marine. Marines also get the blue shield though which allows a building to take 50% less damage while skulks get... nothing? Unless you want to build an umbra machine next to EVERY res tower.
For the Onos fix, Onos' should be nerfed only if other alien lifeforms are compensated. Buff Lerk + Fade health + armor. In return, make it so you can only have 2 Onos's per 6 players. You could also lower their armor and health. This would make them less disposable and more strategic.
While this next part goes a little off topic I think it has very serious impact on the current state of Onos's.
But a MAJOR problem I think right now with making balancing near impossible is that Alien's have no movement chambers. In NS1 in 99% of games where players were more than "NSPlayer" you went movement chamber first. This allowed you to easily defend hives/locations. Currently Aliens lack mobility in being able to control the map where Marines have phasegates.
So what else can Aliens do but turtle and mass Onos's? It is very hard to support a hive when all Marines have to do is Divide and Conquer the path since they know alien's can't teleport there.
While I do like the introduction of power nodes, they need to be a more powerful asset around the map and less powerful where a CC is present. When Aliens kill a power node at a res location it should be BLACK, there should be no backup generator to ever come on, this would at least make use of a flashlight. This would also allow Aliens to more safely kill Res Towers.
The simple fact is, people who complain about Onos's have no idea what serious power Aliens lack compared to NS1. A MAJOR blow to Aliens was the lost of Bunny Hopping. This hopping off walls bullsh*t is no compensation. Get rid of wall hopping and just do what Valve did with TF2 Scouts. Give us the speed we would have if were able to bunnyhop.
The second blow is the Fade + Lerk health and armor loss.
And the third blow is no movement chambers.
Onos's are the only way for aliens to have a chance at victory currently. When the 3 major problems are fixed, then Onos's should and can be nerfed. Until then, sorry, we need the crutch.
Stopped reading there
Then don't post on these forums if you won't be open minded.
Enough close-minded ###### in this world like you, don't need them invading our hobbies.
Enough close-minded ###### in this world like you, don't need them invading our hobbies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol I'm sorry I don't bother reading posts of someone who plays only alien and is arguing for the side of the alien. Come back when you've actually played equal amounts of both sides. Enough idiots like you who think playing one side makes you knowledgeable about the other.
Come back when your account wasn't made in 2012 and you're new to the scene. Get some experience under your belt, please. Thanks.
I have more experience than you in actually playing marine LOL
If he's playing the "LOL You played since 2007 and you never played Marines!".
Want me to go into the "I played Marines, I was even cal-i NS during its competitive period"?
Want me to go into the "I played Marines, I was even cal-i NS during its competitive period"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Want me to go into the <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I only exclusively play Alien on NS2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^
There's not much point in playing anything between Skulk and Onos right now. That's not because the Onos is overpowered, but more because the Lerk/Fade (Gorge is a whole 'nother problem) have been whacked so much with the nerf-bat that you can do more as a Skulk than Lerk/Fade.
And seriously Champloo, just quiet down. After you tried defending the current iteration of bile bomb and Lerk speed yesterday while going on about how you were one of the top posters on the forums, I kinda just /facepalmed and let you go.
Yes there is small asymmetry in counter-strike with the terrorist team either defending hostages or planting bombs and counter-terrorists undoing that. The weapons are mostly reskinned clones of eachother but there are some small differences. Do you have a point to make?
No, this is not the case. Aliens currently dominate balanced matchups. Don't pretend to be presenting facts when you aren't.
<!--quoteo(post=1935711:date=May 12 2012, 08:20 PM:name=conscript)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (conscript @ May 12 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If he's playing the "LOL You played since 2007 and you never played Marines!".
Want me to go into the "I played Marines, I was even cal-i NS during its competitive period"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're both idiots, congratulations.
I dunno. It would be very easy to make the argument that Marines do dominate the early game right now. Especially with the nerfed RT health, an aggressive Marine team can put some serious strain on the Alien economy. I've been seeing plenty of Alien comms rage lately because their RTs keep going down before anyone gets to them.
The problem right now seems to be that the Marines just can't carry the momentum into the mid to late game. This is also the time where, I assume, exo-suits would normally be coming out. When exo-suits are finally implemented then Marines will have a proper transition into the mid-late game.
The problem right now seems to be that the Marines just can't carry the momentum into the mid to late game. This is also the time where, I assume, exo-suits would normally be coming out. When exo-suits are finally implemented then Marines will have a proper transition into the mid-late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exo suits are not midgame tech, nor are they some sort of magical panacea that will fix all that ails this game.
It doesn't matter that killing alien harvesters is relatively easy for the marines, when the aliens end up winning anyway, in large part because marines have no way to effectively deal with onii. Competitive play is a cheese party in this version because it is nearly impossible to win with conventional strategies as marines.
It doesn't matter that killing alien harvesters is relatively easy for the marines, when the aliens end up winning anyway, in large part because marines have no way to effectively deal with onii. Competitive play is a cheese party in this version because it is nearly impossible to win with conventional strategies as marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once third hive abilities are added in, there really shouldn't be any reason for Onos doing double damage to Power Nodes anymore. It's just that right now power nodes are literally the only thing preventing 1-2 hour games that happened in previous builds and usually emptied the server. I'm going to laugh if someone argues that the power node situation isn't the reason why Onos has become FotM for bashing, because no one mentioned it before this build and the only thing it got this build other than the power node damage increase was a slight increase to run speed.
They made the game ... they are building a company ... they care about its success and playability way more than you do or ever will.
I like the fact that when marines are all turtle-rific ... I have an option to choose to change the status of the game.
Play aliens more (I play both sides each patch) and you will understand why a huge amount of players will go Onos midgame.
A fade is a fun investment .... but it is not a game changer in everyones hands.
A lerk results in a couple harassing flybys ... and a shotgun to the face.
An Onos can destroy turrets, power nodes, anything in that forward base.
That turret everyone kept dieing under ... gone.
That armory that was keeping them full of bullets ... gone.
You actually get the feeling you did something awesome with your spawn. (The whole reason you play games)
Before arguing for change it is always best to understand BOTH sides of the problem.
The Problem: from the marines perspective the power node feels like a one button kill for a base. Additionally the Onus seems to be designed to take out this device.
Alien Perspective: They are relieved that they have such an option in their repertoire.
The Suggested Solution: Remove Power Nodes or Nerf Onii so all they can do ... is get shot.
The problems with the suggested solution: No counter would exist for the turtling strategy. The turtling strategy would become the always used strategy. The game would become boring. Nobody would play the Onus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This:
<!--quoteo(post=1935674:date=May 12 2012, 05:08 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 12 2012, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"the power node feels like a one button kill for a base". It practically is. Everything but the command chair is unpowered when the node goes down, so explain to me how it doesn't shut down the entire base?
Oh and you wanna know what the counter to turtling is? The face that if marines are turtling it means that they're either
A. Sieging the alien base
B. Already lost and just prolonging their death
So in B it's more than likely the lack of an alien coordinated effort to take down everything. Onos stomp disables turrets, Gorges can heal the Onos, Fades kill marines, and Lerks can blind marines, and mess up turrets along the way. So explain to me, why it is so far-fetched, so game-breaking, to make the structure that powers almost everything the marines use, their spawning, their advanced weapons, their armor, their turrets they spent 10 tres on each, explain to me what is so far-fetched about making the structure that powers almost everything the marines use durable? Do aliens have a structure that stops eggs from spawning that doesn't lose the game for them? Hell, you may as well make it gameover for marines when their main power node goes down automatically 90% of the time because they've probably lost.
Oh and no one would play the Onos? Why? Is something unappealing about a life form with a huge AoE disable and high structure damage? Something that can disable phase gates, turrets, everything marines build? Is there another life form that disables them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
King you are arguing to have a win button because the alien team cant win by teamwork and playing the game right. There is no other option than going FOR the power node because anything else takes too long to either kill or isn't a viable option. If UWE would actually take to ensure marines couldn't survive on 1 rt or the opposite team holding ever effing node on the map would have such an overwhelming advantage turtling wouldn't be a problem. No need for a noob win button. PERIOD.
When it comes to Oni the other lifeforms aren't needed mid game as they used to be in NS1 so there is no reason NOT to save for onos.
All in all i am sick of fan boys. UWE is doing a blatantly crappy job at this sequel and the only thing helping them with the general public now is that this game is unique enough to forgive other elements or it takes more than a couple play throughs to get even the depth of NS2. If you have played NS1 i cant see how you can say NS2 even comes close. They should have took NS1. Port it to Spark. THEN change and add stuff. Instead of building a solid foundation they made it with plastic and built on it. No wonder the house is falling apart now... Power nodes need to go the way of their other dumb ideas: Multiple commanders and the taser. Only thing keeping power nodes is immersion (light switch). What angers me most is their hypocrisy. They take out devour for noble reason and add a knock down to the standard oni attack AND the stupid stomp that does the same thing but with no damage but a aoe cone (plus disable buildings). No skill life form ftw.
I agree. Do you feel better knowing some Play testers are talking about how to make power nodes more purposeful/useful/needed?
<!--quoteo(post=1935754:date=May 12 2012, 03:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 12 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When it comes to Oni the other lifeforms aren't needed mid game as they used to be in NS1 so there is no reason NOT to save for onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree completely. It isnt nearly as bad as you put it here. Yes its not perfect and the timings/balance/features arent in yet to help, but you still need other lifeforms mid game right now against a competent marine team. (changing starting pres will help this further, so lets wait)
<!--quoteo(post=1935754:date=May 12 2012, 03:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 12 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All in all i am sick of fan boys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are in NS2 forums.. what did you expect, Nintendo fanboys? There's enough negativity going on around these forums to say that a few fanboys aren't doing much harm besides instigating those who are looking for a place to complain / air frustrations.
<!--quoteo(post=1935754:date=May 12 2012, 03:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 12 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They take out devour for noble reason and add a knock down to the standard oni attack AND the stupid stomp that does the same thing but with no damage but a aoe cone (plus disable buildings).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Knock down does not occur with gore, currently.
As for your desire for NS1:spark, xDragon is already making a mod, go that route if it suits you. But know that currently he has no plans to fix the resource model's lack of scaling so it will be for 6 v 6 only.
Changing the starting pres will shift timings, not the mass quantity problem. The constant in every Alien QQ thread for the past two months has been about the quantity of [insert fotm lifeform here]. First it was mass Fades. Then it was mass Lerks. Gorges don't count as real lifeforms. Now it's mass Onos. Timings are not going to change the "mass" part of the problem.
Disagree completely. It isnt nearly as bad as you put it here. Yes its not perfect and the timings/balance/features arent in yet to help, but you still need other lifeforms mid game right now against a competent marine team. (changing starting pres will help this further, so lets wait)
You are in NS2 forums.. what did you expect, Nintendo fanboys? There's enough negativity going on around these forums to say that a few fanboys aren't doing much harm besides instigating those who are looking for a place to complain / air frustrations.
Knock down does not occur with gore, currently.
As for your desire for NS1:spark, xDragon is already making a mod, go that route if it suits you. But know that currently he has no plans to fix the resource model's lack of scaling so it will be for 6 v 6 only.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hear you Iron, i do. I respect your ideas as a poster and sometimes agree =) and i know i am no longer being helpful with my posts. I apologize for wasting people time with my rants. The wife stares blankly at me when i ###### about this game and my dog licks himself (whatever that means, the jerk) so i am left with this forum. I have read so many well thought out, well written posts it angers me certain things are still in the game and broken. I also get angry at how much UWE is using competitive scrims to sell this game when they don't do enough to help it balance wise.
All i am left with is frustration now a days at many games out there. So it stings just that much more when the creators of arguably my favorite game tarnish it's sequel (imo) for flashy graphics and cinematic sequences.
I could have swore Gore caused a knock down. I know it used too and if it was removed that is awesome. Another good thing would be to remove the building disable from Stomp. 2 Oni can easily lock down a forward phase gate not even allowing one phase and marines should be able to dodge it by jumping.
Side note, i don't put stock in icons. The only icon i really respected (besides the dev one because we have to) was the vet icon. Playtesters do a rough tedious job that many couldn't do, but it doesn't add anything to the value of their argument. I respect name, not the icon because of past posts and how they are well written/thought out.
Really? You know you could get those at the drop of a hat back in the old days right? I guess it at least tells you someone has played NS1 for an extended amount of time, a bar many on this forum don't even reach anymore.
And i understand what ya mean, man. The balance will really be focused after the game is considered feature complete by the devs though, and i think thats really when we'll see people happy and maybe even more vocal (hopefully in constructive means) but ofc this is all after performance increases make their way in.
Hope to see your ideas more, Rising. :)
(want to hear what you have to say on my alien upgrades in I&S, its a bit on the edge as far as ideas go)
Rubbish. Scaling only became a problem in ns1 at 12v12 and above.
Marines did hold an advantage at that point simply because the commander managed all their resources and tech upgrades went a lot further with the Marines. Aliens on the other hand shared their resources so each player was getting less. Aliens at least could make up for that with a higher skill cap and some amazing Fades before the blink nerf could essentially shutdown the enemy team with Focus and Meta.
Gods how I'd kill for Meta and Focus swipes back. None of this stab bull###### where you spend 30 minutes in an animation and move so slow that you might as well be super glued to the floor while the Marine watches the entire LotR extended edition trilogy before crawling away and taunting you.
Onos do scale. . .
They are much easier to kill in large player games; I thought that much was obvious