Always the same people, that drag down the conversation with offending, meaningless posts. Can't you keep it productive? Stop acting like little kids. Nobody is interested in your little war about what words the other one used. Sarcastic statements like "Remove armor, Wielders, and Armories. Problem solved." also does not help. If you have another opinion to a topic, than write it once and in a respectful manner. And get over your ego and accept, that other people have other opinions. Beside that, the devs read this forums too and don't want to waste their time with reading little private wars that are totally nonconstructive. You are part of a beta, you should help the devs, not hinder them.
To the topic: As I wrote, the exos may change the usefulness of welders. But since exos are late game tech, they only will affect the welder usefulness in late game. In my opinion this isn't desirable. <b>So lets look at the topic in an early game case on a pub game:</b><ul><li>The welder, is mostly used to repair buildings when it is to soon to drop a robotics factory.</li><li>It's rarely purchased in another case and even more rarely used to weld other marines.</li><li>The welder has the potential to strengthen the teamplay in pub games, if the incentive would be greater to use it.</li><li>We assume, that it is desirable to make the welder to a viable option in a pub game. (But not mandatory!)</li></ul><b>So if we want to achieve this, there were mentioned several ways to strengthen the incentive to use welders (This are only suggestions. In no way should one implement ALL this changes.):</b><ul><li>Drop the welder on death additionally to the slot1 weapon. (This will increase the cost-benefit-ratio of the welder and the overall amount of welders existing in a game.)</li><li>Make the welder damage to buildings equal or slightly higher than that of the axe. (No trade-off, but is one necessary? Maybe decrease the damage to alien players instead?)</li><li>Give the welder an own slot, so the axe is not lost when buying a welder. (Could lead to a redundant weapon. Not desirable from a game mechanic view.)</li><li>Decrease the armor-repair-rate of armories drastically. (Advanced armories are unaffected. Will only slightly lessen the usefulness of forward armories. May change the balance in favor of the aliens.)</li><li>Armories that are not upgraded to advanced, don't repair armor. (May make welders mandatory. Will sure shift balance in favor of the alien team and therefore needs another tweak.)</li><li>Increase the repair-rate on player armor for welders. (Dangerous. Could lead to marines that repair faster than some aliens can make damage.)</li><li>Decrease the repair-rate of MACs to make them less useful for repairing.</li><li>Decrease the repair-rate of power nodes without welders drastically and increase it with welders. (Pushing the use key on a power node should automatically use the welder when purchased.)</li><li>Automatically pull out the welder when the use key is pushed on another player. (This was already implemented before welders where introduced.)</li><li>Increase the range of the welder slightly to make it easier to weld other players. (Could be also a benefit over the shorter range of the axe.)</li><li>Decrease the duration of sprinting drastically to discourage players from running back to armories. (Will make marines overall slower. Could shift balance and map control in favor to aliens. But can also encourage more teamplay, because it discourages rambo play.)</li></ul>
This are all suggestions that have been mentioned, that I can remember. Feel free to add to the list. Please remember that this are only ideas (worth thinking about). Don't say no to everything only because you are afraid that this will destroy the balance. The devs need to make drastic changes in order to make the game as a whole fun. Balance can be done later. So please don't start crying only because you get to play an imbalanced build. This is a beta for a reason.
I would love to read a statement from the devs, what they think about the topic.
Necro, as for the welder needing more building damage: you can drop it, axe a structure, then pick it back up. And I see welders used almost every game, though a slight range increase or indication that you're being welded might be alright.
The welder should do less damage than the axe. That's called a trade off. The real problem is there is very little incentive to use it for it's intended purpose. One small thing that could be done is to add welding points as previously mentioned to let new people know that "HEY YOU ARE DOING A GOOD THING." Then increase the range on it slightly so it is easier to weld players. Right now it is a pain to weld people as they are constantly moving. Welding structures seems to work fine and I don't think a change is needed there. Maybe just start with these simple changes before going drastic and nerfing the armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1934320:date=May 7 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 7 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would argue that is viable, however aliens can drop crags for 10 tres which will regenerate their armor and health, or a gorge can heal them, thus making the alien asymmetrical equivalent superior to the marine one. You could possibly balance that out by only allowing mature crags to regenerate alien armor, or for alien armor to be fixated to their own regen, or something of that sort, but you would obviously have to propose that mutually with your advanced armory armor idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But crag requires the evolution of crag hive, while atm this is all anyone goes for shift might very well change that and make it an actual choice! Also armoury heals notably faster than a crag. Besides the whole point of assymetry is that one team will be better at some things while the other better at others and it will work out in the overall picture after all energy is also superior to ammunition due to being infinite and having a much larger 'clip' size. IMO it makes sense that the side focused on map control and area denial would have a slightly more accessible healing service, especially if taking up that service requires forgoing shade/shift which will ideally be equally viable alternatives in the end. Overall while I liked that in NS1 you had to use welders to regen armour NS1 was a rather different game (marine bullets were deadlier for one). I do not think non repairing armouries would fit too well in NS2 and not only because the welder is no longer in slot 4 but replaces the very useful axe, there is also something to be said for giving people options rather than making a tech a matter of necessity (and it will be because getting into, and staying in melee range in NS2 is a lot more accessible than it was in NS1).
Once again I think the only change the welder needs is some sort of notification to the marine youre welding that he is being welded, I think most people would be more than happy to stand still in exchange for getting their precious armour repaired. I personally find that the biggest deterrent to using the welder is having to chase after your buddies as they sprint away (not being able to weld while sprinting makes this doubly annoying).
<!--quoteo(post=1935511:date=May 11 2012, 04:37 PM:name=sam8uca)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sam8uca @ May 11 2012, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The TF2 Medic design was chosen to avoid the sort of 'in use' issues the welder has now.
Change the old style flame welder, to a flexible nanites beam. It completely steals their design, but it just works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The medigun is also designed that way so that medics can spot for things while their teammates are engaged in combat. Would you want the same thing for marines in NS2, or just have it work on "the area ahead of you"?
<!--quoteo(post=1935523:date=May 11 2012, 10:46 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 11 2012, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The medigun is also designed that way so that medics can spot for things while their teammates are engaged in combat. Would you want the same thing for marines in NS2, or just have it work on "the area ahead of you"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just the area ahead, to make it easy for quick, short bursts, on moving teammates, then get back to the fight.
Making it quick and easy for the User to encourage use. The beam would be a good visual cue to the squad and help create a HWG/Medic feeling of teamwork, whilst making the User a target for the aliens.
So, similar to the Medic, but, shorter and narrower range, one-2-many use (single Marine at a time, but auto jumps when armour repaired) and not a buff (doesn't repair quick enough to nerf an alien attack).
Comments
Sarcastic statements like "Remove armor, Wielders, and Armories. Problem solved." also does not help. If you have another opinion to a topic, than write it once and in a respectful manner. And get over your ego and accept, that other people have other opinions.
Beside that, the devs read this forums too and don't want to waste their time with reading little private wars that are totally nonconstructive. You are part of a beta, you should help the devs, not hinder them.
To the topic:
As I wrote, the exos may change the usefulness of welders. But since exos are late game tech, they only will affect the welder usefulness in late game. In my opinion this isn't desirable.
<b>So lets look at the topic in an early game case on a pub game:</b><ul><li>The welder, is mostly used to repair buildings when it is to soon to drop a robotics factory.</li><li>It's rarely purchased in another case and even more rarely used to weld other marines.</li><li>The welder has the potential to strengthen the teamplay in pub games, if the incentive would be greater to use it.</li><li>We assume, that it is desirable to make the welder to a viable option in a pub game. (But not mandatory!)</li></ul><b>So if we want to achieve this, there were mentioned several ways to strengthen the incentive to use welders (This are only suggestions. In no way should one implement ALL this changes.):</b><ul><li>Drop the welder on death additionally to the slot1 weapon. (This will increase the cost-benefit-ratio of the welder and the overall amount of welders existing in a game.)</li><li>Make the welder damage to buildings equal or slightly higher than that of the axe. (No trade-off, but is one necessary? Maybe decrease the damage to alien players instead?)</li><li>Give the welder an own slot, so the axe is not lost when buying a welder. (Could lead to a redundant weapon. Not desirable from a game mechanic view.)</li><li>Decrease the armor-repair-rate of armories drastically. (Advanced armories are unaffected. Will only slightly lessen the usefulness of forward armories. May change the balance in favor of the aliens.)</li><li>Armories that are not upgraded to advanced, don't repair armor. (May make welders mandatory. Will sure shift balance in favor of the alien team and therefore needs another tweak.)</li><li>Increase the repair-rate on player armor for welders. (Dangerous. Could lead to marines that repair faster than some aliens can make damage.)</li><li>Decrease the repair-rate of MACs to make them less useful for repairing.</li><li>Decrease the repair-rate of power nodes without welders drastically and increase it with welders. (Pushing the use key on a power node should automatically use the welder when purchased.)</li><li>Automatically pull out the welder when the use key is pushed on another player. (This was already implemented before welders where introduced.)</li><li>Increase the range of the welder slightly to make it easier to weld other players. (Could be also a benefit over the shorter range of the axe.)</li><li>Decrease the duration of sprinting drastically to discourage players from running back to armories. (Will make marines overall slower. Could shift balance and map control in favor to aliens. But can also encourage more teamplay, because it discourages rambo play.)</li></ul>
This are all suggestions that have been mentioned, that I can remember. Feel free to add to the list. Please remember that this are only ideas (worth thinking about). Don't say no to everything only because you are afraid that this will destroy the balance. The devs need to make drastic changes in order to make the game as a whole fun. Balance can be done later. So please don't start crying only because you get to play an imbalanced build. This is a beta for a reason.
I would love to read a statement from the devs, what they think about the topic.
I'd love to see a welder buff. . .
I was actually really bothered when I found out that my melee damage was diminished by buying one
Also people welding Onos to death could be good
-
They seem to be using points anyways to encourage other team scenarios.
If I kill a skulk with another marine I don't get the kill....but I get points.
Other than that welder is fine...I have used it .....without nerfing the armory.
But crag requires the evolution of crag hive, while atm this is all anyone goes for shift might very well change that and make it an actual choice! Also armoury heals notably faster than a crag. Besides the whole point of assymetry is that one team will be better at some things while the other better at others and it will work out in the overall picture after all energy is also superior to ammunition due to being infinite and having a much larger 'clip' size. IMO it makes sense that the side focused on map control and area denial would have a slightly more accessible healing service, especially if taking up that service requires forgoing shade/shift which will ideally be equally viable alternatives in the end.
Overall while I liked that in NS1 you had to use welders to regen armour NS1 was a rather different game (marine bullets were deadlier for one). I do not think non repairing armouries would fit too well in NS2 and not only because the welder is no longer in slot 4 but replaces the very useful axe, there is also something to be said for giving people options rather than making a tech a matter of necessity (and it will be because getting into, and staying in melee range in NS2 is a lot more accessible than it was in NS1).
Once again I think the only change the welder needs is some sort of notification to the marine youre welding that he is being welded, I think most people would be more than happy to stand still in exchange for getting their precious armour repaired. I personally find that the biggest deterrent to using the welder is having to chase after your buddies as they sprint away (not being able to weld while sprinting makes this doubly annoying).
Change the old style flame welder, to a flexible nanites beam. It completely steals their design, but it just works.
Change the old style flame welder, to a flexible nanites beam. It completely steals their design, but it just works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The medigun is also designed that way so that medics can spot for things while their teammates are engaged in combat. Would you want the same thing for marines in NS2, or just have it work on "the area ahead of you"?
Just the area ahead, to make it easy for quick, short bursts, on moving teammates, then get back to the fight.
Making it quick and easy for the User to encourage use. The beam would be a good visual cue to the squad and help create a HWG/Medic feeling of teamwork, whilst making the User a target for the aliens.
So, similar to the Medic, but, shorter and narrower range, one-2-many use (single Marine at a time, but auto jumps when armour repaired) and not a buff (doesn't repair quick enough to nerf an alien attack).