Higher Life Form Limit
Champlo0
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Members
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Members
We should limit higher life forms because marines have no answer to 3 onos
We can do it by this equation:
Onos = 5 Points
Fade = 3 Points
Gorge = 1 Point
Lerk = 2 Points
For every player that each time can have (server slot limit/2) add 1.8 points (Rounded down). For each additional hive add 3 points. Assuming a normal game of 2 hives with an 8 man team this gives a total of 17 points which is enough for 3 onos at one end. A lot of people might object to this because it limits a players actions and it might cause "life form" hogs. Yes, this will result in the sort of behavior, however that is an unavoidable consequence of a necessary balance. There is simply no way to handle herds of onos for marines, and don't try to argue that exo or any tech will change anything because all alien lifeforms come out 6 minutes in, and unless marines are dominating, that means Onos are coming into play early mid game. Exo, or any other tech powerful enough to counter an onos isn't going to be coming early mid game, it's going to be coming late game.
I've experienced many games lately where 4 or more aliens were onos at one time, and it is an extreme problem. It doesn't take more than 3 or 4 RTs for a bunch of skulks to gather enough pres for Onos by six to seven minutes in, which means that the game is being played on a balanced level beforehand.
We can do it by this equation:
Onos = 5 Points
Fade = 3 Points
Gorge = 1 Point
Lerk = 2 Points
For every player that each time can have (server slot limit/2) add 1.8 points (Rounded down). For each additional hive add 3 points. Assuming a normal game of 2 hives with an 8 man team this gives a total of 17 points which is enough for 3 onos at one end. A lot of people might object to this because it limits a players actions and it might cause "life form" hogs. Yes, this will result in the sort of behavior, however that is an unavoidable consequence of a necessary balance. There is simply no way to handle herds of onos for marines, and don't try to argue that exo or any tech will change anything because all alien lifeforms come out 6 minutes in, and unless marines are dominating, that means Onos are coming into play early mid game. Exo, or any other tech powerful enough to counter an onos isn't going to be coming early mid game, it's going to be coming late game.
I've experienced many games lately where 4 or more aliens were onos at one time, and it is an extreme problem. It doesn't take more than 3 or 4 RTs for a bunch of skulks to gather enough pres for Onos by six to seven minutes in, which means that the game is being played on a balanced level beforehand.
Comments
Because Jetpacks have infinite fuel and give everyone infinite ammo right?
Because Onos are forever below you and have infinite health right?
Stop that, I just had a vision of an Onos flying around!
Also, the Onos when used in force is possible to take down with focus fire. However with the current end game resflow you will usually see more then one. In case the aliens have three for example, you will have three times the problem and that can put a severe strain on the focus fire/ammo counter in your rifles to some extent. It gets much worse when they have Crags/Gorgies around and it gets exponentially worse when they have Fades/Lerk/Skulk support!
But then again, the Onos is supposed to be a game ender...
Also, the Onos when used in force is possible to take down with focus fire. However with the current end game resflow you will usually see more then one. In case the aliens have three for example, you will have three times the problem and that can put a severe strain on the focus fire/ammo counter in your rifles to some extent. It gets much worse when they have Crags/Gorgies around and it gets exponentially worse when they have Fades/Lerk/Skulk support!
But then again, the Onos is supposed to be a game ender...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that even if marines are dominating the game they have no answer to 3 onos rushing their base if some aliens just save up their pres for like 12 minutes, even if they only have like 1 or 2 towers. So it basically makes marines on a timer no matter how well they do. Also there's not always a place for you to sit on, and you're also assuming that there is nothing other than the onos attacking you.
So a marine is getting swamped by an Onos and multiple other life forms, and he can't survive or kill them all? You're right, this needs immediate balance attention!
yes, because oni have infinite hp
stop worrying about balance issues while reg is ###### and exo-suits not in yet
Its like saying that in NS1, 3 hives were overpowered because the marines were almost always defeated within 5 minutes of the third going up. While it may be true that 3 hives completely dominated marines, you don't quite get a feel for what came before that. Getting 3 hives in NS1 is extremely difficult as we know, and represents a massive mistake on the marines side.
3 Onos is the same thing. It represents 3 players that did absolutely nothing until the 12 minute mark except run around as skulk. They then all went Onos simultaneously and attacked in a coordinated fashion. There are a lot of risks in that scenario. For example, remember all those games as marine where you walked all over the aliens res towers for 6 minutes, then marched into their hive and egg camped them till their Hive was knifed to death? That represents too many people saving to Onos, and never getting the chance to use the res.
That being said, I do agree that the marines are under a lot more pressure to prevent this from happening. In order to stop the 3+ Onos rush from happening, the marines have to be on the offensive at all times. They must be killing res towers, they must be attacking hive rooms, taking outposts, killing skulks. They have to apply pressure in every way possible. The aliens obviously don't have this problem. At the moment there is no 3 Onos marine equivalent that the aliens are under pressure to prevent. Maybe Exos will introduce this though.
I think the chances of a game being balanced both with and without class restrictions is slim.
And your nightmare becomes true!
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2ntboJ__c3E"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2ntboJ__c3E" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Also, @op part of the issue is that onos comes out way too quickly each game (can get it as quick as 8min, but usually within 10-12min). If it took you 15-20min at the fastest to get enough res for onos, it would force more aliens to go lesser lifeforms to defend against upgraded marine tech.
In NS2, when you have multiple high lifeforms all pop up at once, you have an inherent inbalance, because fades were meant to fight multipe marines, and so the only chance marines would have against that many fades is to have the whole team stick together. However, that in itself is a flawed system, because if they are all in the same place, they cant control the map. 2 or 3 marines need to be able to hold off aliens in an area, and in the current system they cant do that when fades all pop at the same time. When you factor in onos all popping at the same time which were meant as a unit that can fight off even more marines, things just get exponentially worse.
NS1 balance was based off these principles, and you are throwing the same lifeforms with the same abilities into a different situation. Lifeforms need to be seperated so marines can attempt to control the map. Without this division, you cant form any balance. If you are going to borrow ideas from NS1, you cant just consider half of the equation. The beauty of NS1 is that the game managed this balance perfectly, but without the whole system, balance is lost.
... The beauty of NS1 is that the game managed this balance perfectly, but without the whole system, balance is lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean no disrespect at all Jonacrab, you often advance great arguments. But I must interject here and ask the question, how well did NS1's perfect balance work in 8v8s? 10v10s? Anything but 6v6? The answer is that it did not, at all. NS1 was only balanced for 6v6, and that is unacceptable for NS2.
Now, as for the question of limiting lifeforms: We won't be doing it. The core problem lies lower down, as Jonacrab correctly points out. We need to get to the stage where if the Aliens do pop out seven fades at once, they should have already lost due to the sacrifices made to get those seven fades. We are still working on getting all those sacrifices in, and tweaking them so they work. One is Lerks, one is saving for Onos, and yes, one is Gorge for expansion and structure construction.
NS2 is a very very complex system, and we are trying to avoid hard limits wherever possible. Yes we did it with the Hydra and Clog, but that doesn't mean we can't aspire to avoiding it in as many areas as possible.
So learning from the previous game involves keeping everything exactly the same? Anything changed for the sake of balance clearly shows that nothing has been learned?
You win the prize for least sense made in the fewest sentences.
You win the prize for least sense made in the fewest sentences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, keeping what works, and worked for years while fixing the issues ns1 had. Currently, they replaced what worked with broken ideas, and fixed what worked for years with more broken ideas for the sake of balance and bad gameplay design. WHILE removing the essence whatever ns1 was.
and thank you for the prize.
Now, as for the question of limiting lifeforms: We won't be doing it. The core problem lies lower down, as Jonacrab correctly points out. We need to get to the stage where if the Aliens do pop out seven fades at once, they should have already lost due to the sacrifices made to get those seven fades. We are still working on getting all those sacrifices in, and tweaking them so they work. One is Lerks, one is saving for Onos, and yes, one is Gorge for expansion and structure construction.
NS2 is a very very complex system, and we are trying to avoid hard limits wherever possible. Yes we did it with the Hydra and Clog, but that doesn't mean we can't aspire to avoiding it in as many areas as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the response; in the meantime I'll be trying to make a mod until these changes happen so the issue will be toned down a little.
Implying you didn't just want a carbon copy of NS1 in shiny new graphics. In fact most people would be proud to admit that that's exactly what they want. Well, that's not what you're going to get. Not until a mod brings it to the game.
Clearly balance as a whole should somewhat wait for the exo, but some of these problems I think are fundamental problems, and can be resolved/discussed at this point in development. I think the costs of each tech item/research/ability need to be looked at very carefully. I think many abilities for both sides should be moved to a tres cost, away from energy. Regarding massing of lifeforms and balance, I think that requires careful attention to how each lifeform and weapon interact, and how they remain effective through the game. Also careful attention needs to be paid to how effective they are lategame, as a marine spawning with the best weapon to fight off onos or fade only prolongs turtles, the same as if a skulk spawned as the best anti marine class.
I've been thinking is that we don't necessarily need building HP to scale with playercount as much as more viable methods for mass marines to kill aliens in their own territory. For example, In a 16v16 game, it'd be both more likely and more possible to keep a significant larger contingent of marines in your base (think 4-5 building stuff, spawning, healing, loitering) than in a 6v6. If you could make it so that contingent of marines could delay a force of aliens 2-3 larger from killing your mission critical structures (power node and/or command station) for a set period of time (say 30s) to allow your marines a chance to get back to base, that would help with playercount scaling.
Another alternative is to change the structure damage taken to a threshold value similar to clogs such that there is a max damage taken/s value. Essentially, you'd be able to set a ceiling on the fastest you could kill any structure regardless of playercount. You could go even further and make the damage threshold a structure upgrade (harden?) or make it as a feature of the nanoshield or other casted ability.
I however, side with the idea that jet packs solve everything. That is if you are skilled iwth them. I usually only die against an onos ith a jetpack beacuse im too pusy flying into a wall becaus I can't see where I am flying inot. if i was coordinate enough to look at my mini mpa, while flying, and while shooting. I could single handedly toy with an Ono for a considerable amount of duration. You have a whole team of jetpacks doing that and its good fun. ESPECIALLY when it only costs a measly 10 resources for a marine to purchase themself this invaluable transportation device that I firmly believe does wonders against all forms of aliens. Its an amazing panic button. its not even about being able to fly above the Onos. But how you can fly backwards faster than he moves forwards while still shooting.
Yes I know many of you will say its not useful... many from NS1, but I still think jetpacks are so under rated. Like one commander just rushed nade launchers and jetpacks and it was instant GG as we flew in and merked their bases.