<!--quoteo(post=1932086:date=May 1 2012, 01:40 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ May 1 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->unupgraded marines are SUPPOSED to die, thats the whole point of marines getting the upgrades, and the exosuit which isnt even in the game yet. so youre proposing you make the fade obsolete vs non-exo marines and a waste of res after marines get exosuits?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nonono!!! i dont mean this at all :(.
What i mean is that skilled fades should be rewarded ofcourse!, herp derp fades that just tank kill shouldn't. The way it works currently, if the fade blinks infront of you and just hits you without blinking out or anything, they will kill you before you even get a 2nd shotgun blast off due to the slower shotgun rof. The situation is the same for un-upgraded and upgraded marines. w0 to w3 is 3 shotgun hits to kill and a0-a3 the fade will still tank kill you. Ofcourse this is all affected by future changes to fade swipe damage and rof though..
Again, the only thing i am saying is that herp derp fades that lack the ability to blink properly etc are being rewarded far too much. Exosuits are a different issue i think as they most likely will be even less mobile than a normal marine - fades probably won't be able to tank kill them and thats fine. The point of the fade is blink/shadowstep and mobility obviously. Exosuits doesnt make them obsolete. Besides I'm simply talking game balance before exosuits appear.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1932471:date=May 1 2012, 04:39 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ May 1 2012, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->nonono!!! i dont mean this at all :(.
What i mean is that skilled fades should be rewarded ofcourse!, herp derp fades that just tank kill shouldn't. The way it works currently, if the fade blinks infront of you and just hits you without blinking out or anything, they will kill you before you even get a 2nd shotgun blast off due to the slower shotgun rof. The situation is the same for un-upgraded and upgraded marines. w0 to w3 is 3 shotgun hits to kill and a0-a3 the fade will still tank kill you. Ofcourse this is all affected by future changes to fade swipe damage and rof though..
Again, the only thing i am saying is that herp derp fades that lack the ability to blink properly etc are being rewarded far too much. Exosuits are a different issue i think as they most likely will be even less mobile than a normal marine - fades probably won't be able to tank kill them and thats fine. The point of the fade is blink/shadowstep and mobility obviously. Exosuits doesnt make them obsolete. Besides I'm simply talking game balance before exosuits appear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if the Fade dies to a shotgun easily, why would I pay 50 res for a Fad? I might as well stay Skulk! :P
IMO Fade's main role as assassin means he is suppose to blink in and kill before marines can react. Marines' lives are cheap, whereas a Fade is not. I imagine his role should even be enhanced late game. (How else are Fades suppose to survive against marine balls?)
With so many tools (to counter Fades) such as mines, scans (to reveal fades' movement), Nano Shield, med packs, teammates, and the recent Swipe damage reduction (at 2 swipes to kill full HP marine), I just don't think Fades can be considered overpowered anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1932474:date=May 2 2012, 11:55 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ May 2 2012, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well if the Fade dies to a shotgun easily, why would I pay 50 res for a Fad? I might as well stay Skulk! :P
IMO Fade's main role as assassin means he is suppose to blink in and kill before marines can react. Marines' lives are cheap, whereas a Fade is not. I imagine his role should even be enhanced late game. (How else are Fades suppose to survive against marine balls?)
With so many tools (to counter Fades) such as mines, scans (to reveal fades' movement), Nano Shield, med packs, teammates, and the recent Swipe damage reduction (at 2 swipes to kill full HP marine), I just don't think Fades can be considered overpowered anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For a long time fades were 2 shot kills with upgraded shotguns (even with 150 cara when shotguns wern't light damage). It wasnt a problem in the least. Its an issue when shotguns (supposed to be fade killers) do less damage than rifles against herp derp fade playstyle.
Right hes an assasin, you blink behind the marine not infront of him and use blink properly :s. Yea there are alot of other variables but all i am saying is that herp derping is being rewarded. Just because a fade costs 50 res doesnt mean you should be able to play herp derp.
We agree that there are currently issues with the shotgun (the devs are just as frustrated with it when we play the game as you guys), and have an idea of some changes to make to it. Just one of many things on our list that we are trying to sort out as fast as we can.
the two cones of fire worked fine in ns1. 1 fired half the shots in a tight grouping, the other fired the other half in a cone that was roughly twice the size. I agree that the spread shouldn't be random.
well, semi-random-ish spread pretty much defines a shotgun being that 85% of shotguns are not rifled like ... rifles and pistols. you got to picture a shotgun (a real one) all the pellets are housed in a plastic wad (12 gauge = 9 pellets) and once the gun shoots all the gas throws the wad out with all the pellets in a unified and yet random cone of effectiveness. anyhoo.. it would be keewl if you could have an option to use slugs or buck shot... a slug basicly turns a 12g into a 70 cal. short range boom stick but it is still just a game and there is no rules to future shotguns ... why you still gotta pump?
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
im experimenting with a fixed pattern for all 10 pellets but rotate that pattern (randomly) around the players view zAxis. it works great so far and looks still totally random/natural. i hope we can add this for 208 next week after testing it
<!--quoteo(post=1932506:date=May 1 2012, 10:51 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 1 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We agree that there are currently issues with the shotgun (the devs are just as frustrated with it when we play the game as you guys), and have an idea of some changes to make to it. Just one of many things on our list that we are trying to sort out as fast as we can.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for filling us in! I've only started using the shotgun recently since I had previously stuck with grenade launchers or my rifle most of the game and I was extremely frustrated as well. There was a skulk in base chewing on the commander's chair and I fired at the stationary Kharaa from about 5 feet away and it didn't die and started running around but each time I fired it missed although I could clearly tell it should have registered at least a partial hit. I fired about 5 shots total plus the original point blank one before it killed ME. Now I admit some of those point blank shots might have largely missed since the other player was moving around pretty fast but I like to think that all my CS training has made me adequate at shooting and there should have been at least enough partial splash damage from all those shots to take it down.
<!--quoteo(post=1932615:date=May 2 2012, 05:38 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ May 2 2012, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im experimenting with a fixed pattern for all 10 pellets but rotate that pattern (randomly) around the players view zAxis. it works great so far and looks still totally random/natural. i hope we can add this for 208 next week after testing it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this just sounds so incredibly horribly wrong to me! and yes, one of the <u>comps</u> wrote about how he wanted consistency - for chance to not interfere with skill... what bs I say! how is removing chance from the game improving anything? it's a GAME - games are based around chance!
...why not go further... make gorgespit hitscan make the hitscan hydraspikes hit 100% why even have a branching map? make it a one long corridor with smooth walls for cinsistency with techpoints and resnodes on a straight line, then you consistently know where the enemy is coming from and you can focus ALL your skill into killing them! why not make the rifle-rounds target-seeking a-la dumbed-down console games? let's just replace the players with aimbotting bots that have one single build and path of attack for consistency. or just make a demo of said match that all the comps and other players can watch again and again instead of playing for TRUE 100% consistency.....
how is the ns2 shotgun not reliable??? it already has much narrower spread than ns1! which to that was quazi-random (think it was like 3 pellets center circle + 5 pellets outer circle), so why not just copy this to ns2??? you realize ppl will learn this fixed pattern after 50-100 sg-blasts and how will this game seem then?
<!--quoteo(post=1932673:date=May 2 2012, 04:35 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 2 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this just sounds so incredibly horribly wrong to me! and yes, one of the <u>comps</u> wrote about how he wanted consistency - for chance to not interfere with skill... what bs I say!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh cool it's a silly pub vs comp argument. Guess what, though? I'm not currently on a competitive team, and I haven't scrimmed this game in over a month because I don't feel it's ready for that yet.
I'm actually a pub player who wants fixed shotgun spread. Suck on that!
Also, you should actually read the posts about shotgun spread and respond to them instead of just barfing on your keyboard and clicking 'post'. I'd really appreciate it.
<!--quoteo(post=1932615:date=May 2 2012, 11:38 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ May 2 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im experimenting with a fixed pattern for all 10 pellets but rotate that pattern (randomly) around the players view zAxis. it works great so far and looks still totally random/natural. i hope we can add this for 208 next week after testing it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1932239:date=May 1 2012, 09:40 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ May 1 2012, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure where advocates of the random spread are getting the idea that a fixed spread would make it possible to hit every pellet at long range, but the fact is that would only be the case if the pellets were poorly distributed. The reason the shotgun spread crosshair was effective in NS1 is that about half of the pellets were clumped together - in the top-right corner if memory serves. A radially symmetrical spread layout would not have that problem. If it were also adequately wide, it'd be reliably impossible to hit more than a few pellets per shot at long range.
Anyway, addressing the topic: I don't like the feel of the Shotgun currently but that's mostly due to poor hitreg. While I agree the NS1 shotgun was satisfying to use, I didn't like how it was The Ultimate Weapon, plowing through aliens and structures alike - and now that players can buy their own without impeding tech growth, the NS2 shotgun would break the game if it were that powerful. The damage reduction mechanics vs Onos are dodgy, but I wouldn't want to buff its damage against anything else, especially not before seeing what difference improved hitreg will make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the shotty was far from the ultimate, the hmg was a BEAST tho. loved that weapon. mow down just about anything. it was also a prize to save if you died :D
<!--quoteo(post=1932736:date=May 3 2012, 12:36 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 3 2012, 12:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh cool it's a silly pub vs comp argument. Guess what, though? I'm not currently on a competitive team, and I haven't scrimmed this game in over a month because I don't feel it's ready for that yet.
I'm actually a pub player who wants fixed shotgun spread. Suck on that!
Also, you should actually read the posts about shotgun spread and respond to them instead of just barfing on your keyboard and clicking 'post'. I'd really appreciate it.
Awesome! Thanks for taking a look into it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ok, did you read my post? did the ns1 thing work or not? why reinvent the wheel? wasn't it about simplicity?
this is my opinion that I would have one-100% no matter if I'm a pubber or comp, you interpret me wrong. I love the comp scene. what if weapons weren't randomized in CS would that be a good idea? the ak and m4 had 2 predetermined recoil patterns (each)? I really strongly think adding this predictability to shotgun making the only deciding factor you aim (and sometimes target orientation) is gonna make things very boring. the rifle already has a spread angle which is 1/2 or 1/3 of ns1, which makes it really predictable.
<!--quoteo(post=1932809:date=May 3 2012, 02:44 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ May 3 2012, 02:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Out of curiosity was the NS1 shottie random spread or was that just the clientside animation that was random?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Both. I think 3.something introduced random spread, before that it was always the same spread (you could easily check it on hives), despite the varying clientside decals you'd get on walls and such.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1932673:date=May 2 2012, 12:35 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 2 2012, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and yes, one of the <u>comps</u> wrote about how he wanted consistency - for chance to not interfere with skill... what bs I say! how is removing chance from the game improving anything? it's a GAME - games are based around chance!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry weezl, but people wanting skill over chance reduces frustrating gameplay and artificial handicaps - its essentially the cultural reasoning behind "hardcore" players picking Bad company 2 over COD. (where the winners are decided by random chance more often than not. [hello supply crates])
Just so you know for future use: NS1 and obviously NS2 are both aimed at being balanced for <u>comp</u> games as well as pubs, means that skill will always take priority over random luck when in regards to player input.
Edit: maybe a visual aid will help show how this can be frustrating, OH and weezle, you DO understand that the spread is still randomized, by rotating the Z angle, right?? Not to mention i already retracted my opinion on a permanent, fixed pattern publicly after someone raised a point regarding crosshair exploiting.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
@weezl: just to address your concerns (which i had myself as well before): the shotgun spread is still basically random. there is no pattern which you can 'learn'. i ensured that in my tests, i only wanted to make the SG behave like you expect, instead of what we have currently:
instead of having a magical number in the background (distance to target reduces the damage) i tried a predefined pattern.
you cannot "learn" how to use this pattern, since it appears randomly in every shot. you need to aim still in the same way as before, but now those lucky and extremely unlucky edge cases are removed. unless you are a fan of RPG mechanics (critical strikes?) i think you welcome this as well. in my opinion 'luck' has no place in a shooter, unless you designed that game especially for that. i think you maybe misinterpreted my previous post somehow
oh holy ######, happened again, wrote a long and nice text and forgot to copy before posting, all lost due to need to log in when I already was logged in. short version:
@ironhorse probability that the pellets are in that fourth is 1/4^N. for 8 pellets it's already 1 in 65536. statistics are against you. please do a probability density plot if you're gonna do an illustration.
@Sewlek thanks for your nice answer even though I often say things very harsh! I did understand the proposed system. when doing a probability density plot it would be circles. so assuming an arbitrary target, the only factor apart from aim would be distance (more general: angular size) to the target, WITHOUT any chance whatsoever. the SG effectively becomes the FT cone with dmg decreasing with distance (with some dmg coefficient). ofc when targets hitbox is taken into account and the chosen rotation, it improves the randomness, but it doesn't seem like a shotgun to me. the ns1 system was a very good compromise, why not use it (or similar)?
I didn't mean ppl would learn to use the pattern, just learn to recognize its shape (in it's different rotations and/or the radial distances of the pellets).
<!--quoteo(post=1932673:date=May 2 2012, 09:35 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 2 2012, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this just sounds so incredibly horribly wrong to me! and yes, one of the <u>comps</u> wrote about how he wanted consistency - for chance to not interfere with skill... what bs I say! how is removing chance from the game improving anything? it's a GAME - games are based around chance!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Generally introducing chance into a game simply makes it an exercise in futility.
A small amount of chance is fine, but it should never be included any more than necessary, the point of a game is that you do things and the things you do have effects. Chance is the antithesis of that, because it means that your input is irrelevant, so why are you playing the game when your input doesn't matter? Winning is determined by chance, whether and how you play simply doesn't matter. You are at best a machine for rolling the dice. Not my idea of a fun time.
There are a great many excellent games that have absolutely no elements of chance in them, chess springs to mind for example.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1932885:date=May 2 2012, 09:49 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 2 2012, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... the ns1 system was a very good compromise, why not use it (or similar)? ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually we did. now the random functions behaved, lets say 'strange'. it failed due to that for the ns2 shotgun so far. that's something we are fixing, but regardless of that i don't like that randomness. i would like to have full control about the "amount of randomness". does that make sense? :D it is really well achieved by a predefined pattern, and simply manipulating that local coordinate system with 1 random value, rather than having 10 random variables. i guess you either need to play with the shotgun with that change and tell me then the flaws (you are not going to convince me right now) or give me another really good reason why im wrong here.
On shotgun being The Ultimate Weapon, wasn't it more like this?: <u>LMG vs:</u> Buildings: ** Players: **
<u>Shotgun</u> B: **** P: ****
<u>HMG</u> B: ** P: *****
<u>GL</u> B: ***** P: *
So the shotgun was more flexible, great for rambos or very small groups, but if you had 3+ dudes you'd probably want the more specialized weapons in there too.
In NS2 this is more like <u>LMG vs:</u> Buildings: ** Players: **
<u>Shotgun</u> B: **** P: **** (lose two stars vs armoured targets)
<u>GL</u> B: *** P: *** (shorter fuse but much less ammo)
<u>Flamethrower</u> B: ** P: ** (may prevent enemy from fleeing)
@Chris0132 having stuff be fully by chance like you're saying, eliminates the player yes. also it's completely absurd ofc. having no chance at all making everything fully predictable would make things very boring I think. there has to be a good balance, I simply don't see it in this proposed system, but I see it in ns1.
<!--quoteo(post=1932961:date=May 3 2012, 07:13 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ May 3 2012, 07:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->actually we did. now the random functions behaved, lets say 'strange'. it failed due to that for the ns2 shotgun so far. that's something we are fixing, but regardless of that i don't like that randomness. i would like to have full control about the "amount of randomness". does that make sense? :D it is really well achieved by a predefined pattern, and simply manipulating that local coordinate system with 1 random value, rather than having 10 random variables. i guess you either need to play with the shotgun with that change and tell me then the flaws (you are not going to convince me right now) or give me another really good reason why im wrong here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->agree, I have to try for myself in practice ofc.
<!--quoteo(post=1933046:date=May 3 2012, 02:35 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 3 2012, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On shotgun being The Ultimate Weapon, wasn't it more like this?: <u>LMG vs:</u> Buildings: ** Players: **
<u>Shotgun</u> B: **** P: ****
<u>HMG</u> B: ** P: *****
<u>GL</u> B: ***** P: *
So the shotgun was more flexible, great for rambos or very small groups, but if you had 3+ dudes you'd probably want the more specialized weapons in there too.
In NS2 this is more like <u>LMG vs:</u> Buildings: ** Players: **
<u>Shotgun</u> B: **** P: **** (lose two stars vs armoured targets)
<u>GL</u> B: *** P: *** (shorter fuse but much less ammo)
<u>Flamethrower</u> B: ** P: ** (may prevent enemy from fleeing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> very good sum-up!
<!--quoteo(post=1932615:date=May 2 2012, 11:38 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ May 2 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im experimenting with a fixed pattern for all 10 pellets but rotate that pattern (randomly) around the players view zAxis. it works great so far and looks still totally random/natural. i hope we can add this for 208 next week after testing it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can always do what quake3 does and use a consistent pattern for server side registration, but display a random pattern (or one of a few premade) on the client for visual effect. There's also a toggle so players can choose fixed or random decals. I think it would be easier to process and result in more consistent damage.]
ns1 worked in a similar way except the server registration was random also. The client displayed a differnt pattern than what was actually shot unless lag compensation was turned off.
Comments
nonono!!! i dont mean this at all :(.
What i mean is that skilled fades should be rewarded ofcourse!, herp derp fades that just tank kill shouldn't. The way it works currently, if the fade blinks infront of you and just hits you without blinking out or anything, they will kill you before you even get a 2nd shotgun blast off due to the slower shotgun rof. The situation is the same for un-upgraded and upgraded marines. w0 to w3 is 3 shotgun hits to kill and a0-a3 the fade will still tank kill you. Ofcourse this is all affected by future changes to fade swipe damage and rof though..
Again, the only thing i am saying is that herp derp fades that lack the ability to blink properly etc are being rewarded far too much. Exosuits are a different issue i think as they most likely will be even less mobile than a normal marine - fades probably won't be able to tank kill them and thats fine. The point of the fade is blink/shadowstep and mobility obviously. Exosuits doesnt make them obsolete. Besides I'm simply talking game balance before exosuits appear.
What i mean is that skilled fades should be rewarded ofcourse!, herp derp fades that just tank kill shouldn't. The way it works currently, if the fade blinks infront of you and just hits you without blinking out or anything, they will kill you before you even get a 2nd shotgun blast off due to the slower shotgun rof. The situation is the same for un-upgraded and upgraded marines. w0 to w3 is 3 shotgun hits to kill and a0-a3 the fade will still tank kill you. Ofcourse this is all affected by future changes to fade swipe damage and rof though..
Again, the only thing i am saying is that herp derp fades that lack the ability to blink properly etc are being rewarded far too much. Exosuits are a different issue i think as they most likely will be even less mobile than a normal marine - fades probably won't be able to tank kill them and thats fine. The point of the fade is blink/shadowstep and mobility obviously. Exosuits doesnt make them obsolete. Besides I'm simply talking game balance before exosuits appear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if the Fade dies to a shotgun easily, why would I pay 50 res for a Fad? I might as well stay Skulk! :P
IMO Fade's main role as assassin means he is suppose to blink in and kill before marines can react. Marines' lives are cheap, whereas a Fade is not. I imagine his role should even be enhanced late game. (How else are Fades suppose to survive against marine balls?)
With so many tools (to counter Fades) such as mines, scans (to reveal fades' movement), Nano Shield, med packs, teammates, and the recent Swipe damage reduction (at 2 swipes to kill full HP marine), I just don't think Fades can be considered overpowered anymore.
IMO Fade's main role as assassin means he is suppose to blink in and kill before marines can react. Marines' lives are cheap, whereas a Fade is not. I imagine his role should even be enhanced late game. (How else are Fades suppose to survive against marine balls?)
With so many tools (to counter Fades) such as mines, scans (to reveal fades' movement), Nano Shield, med packs, teammates, and the recent Swipe damage reduction (at 2 swipes to kill full HP marine), I just don't think Fades can be considered overpowered anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For a long time fades were 2 shot kills with upgraded shotguns (even with 150 cara when shotguns wern't light damage). It wasnt a problem in the least. Its an issue when shotguns (supposed to be fade killers) do less damage than rifles against herp derp fade playstyle.
Right hes an assasin, you blink behind the marine not infront of him and use blink properly :s. Yea there are alot of other variables but all i am saying is that herp derping is being rewarded. Just because a fade costs 50 res doesnt mean you should be able to play herp derp.
--Cory
you got to picture a shotgun (a real one) all the pellets are housed in a plastic wad (12 gauge = 9 pellets) and once the gun shoots all the gas throws the wad out with all the pellets in a unified and yet random cone of effectiveness.
anyhoo..
it would be keewl if you could have an option to use slugs or buck shot... a slug basicly turns a 12g into a 70 cal. short range boom stick
but it is still just a game and there is no rules to future shotguns ... why you still gotta pump?
:)
:)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for filling us in! I've only started using the shotgun recently since I had previously stuck with grenade launchers or my rifle most of the game and I was extremely frustrated as well. There was a skulk in base chewing on the commander's chair and I fired at the stationary Kharaa from about 5 feet away and it didn't die and started running around but each time I fired it missed although I could clearly tell it should have registered at least a partial hit. I fired about 5 shots total plus the original point blank one before it killed ME. Now I admit some of those point blank shots might have largely missed since the other player was moving around pretty fast but I like to think that all my CS training has made me adequate at shooting and there should have been at least enough partial splash damage from all those shots to take it down.
this just sounds so incredibly horribly wrong to me!
and yes, one of the <u>comps</u> wrote about how he wanted consistency - for chance to not interfere with skill... what bs I say!
how is removing chance from the game improving anything? it's a GAME - games are based around chance!
...why not go further...
make gorgespit hitscan
make the hitscan hydraspikes hit 100%
why even have a branching map? make it a one long corridor with smooth walls for cinsistency with techpoints and resnodes on a straight line, then you consistently know where the enemy is coming from and you can focus ALL your skill into killing them!
why not make the rifle-rounds target-seeking a-la dumbed-down console games?
let's just replace the players with aimbotting bots that have one single build and path of attack for consistency.
or just make a demo of said match that all the comps and other players can watch again and again instead of playing for TRUE 100% consistency.....
how is the ns2 shotgun not reliable??? it already has much narrower spread than ns1! which to that was quazi-random (think it was like 3 pellets center circle + 5 pellets outer circle), so why not just copy this to ns2??? you realize ppl will learn this fixed pattern after 50-100 sg-blasts and how will this game seem then?
and yes, one of the <u>comps</u> wrote about how he wanted consistency - for chance to not interfere with skill... what bs I say!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh cool it's a silly pub vs comp argument. Guess what, though? I'm not currently on a competitive team, and I haven't scrimmed this game in over a month because I don't feel it's ready for that yet.
I'm actually a pub player who wants fixed shotgun spread. Suck on that!
Also, you should actually read the posts about shotgun spread and respond to them instead of just barfing on your keyboard and clicking 'post'. I'd really appreciate it.
<!--quoteo(post=1932615:date=May 2 2012, 11:38 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ May 2 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im experimenting with a fixed pattern for all 10 pellets but rotate that pattern (randomly) around the players view zAxis. it works great so far and looks still totally random/natural. i hope we can add this for 208 next week after testing it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome! Thanks for taking a look into it.
Anyway, addressing the topic: I don't like the feel of the Shotgun currently but that's mostly due to poor hitreg. While I agree the NS1 shotgun was satisfying to use, I didn't like how it was The Ultimate Weapon, plowing through aliens and structures alike - and now that players can buy their own without impeding tech growth, the NS2 shotgun would break the game if it were that powerful. The damage reduction mechanics vs Onos are dodgy, but I wouldn't want to buff its damage against anything else, especially not before seeing what difference improved hitreg will make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the shotty was far from the ultimate, the hmg was a BEAST tho. loved that weapon. mow down just about anything. it was also a prize to save if you died :D
I'm actually a pub player who wants fixed shotgun spread. Suck on that!
Also, you should actually read the posts about shotgun spread and respond to them instead of just barfing on your keyboard and clicking 'post'. I'd really appreciate it.
Awesome! Thanks for taking a look into it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, did you read my post?
did the ns1 thing work or not? why reinvent the wheel? wasn't it about simplicity?
this is my opinion that I would have one-100% no matter if I'm a pubber or comp, you interpret me wrong. I love the comp scene.
what if weapons weren't randomized in CS would that be a good idea? the ak and m4 had 2 predetermined recoil patterns (each)?
I really strongly think adding this predictability to shotgun making the only deciding factor you aim (and sometimes target orientation) is gonna make things very boring.
the rifle already has a spread angle which is 1/2 or 1/3 of ns1, which makes it really predictable.
Heresy!
Out of curiosity was the NS1 shottie random spread or was that just the clientside animation that was random?
Both. I think 3.something introduced random spread, before that it was always the same spread (you could easily check it on hives), despite the varying clientside decals you'd get on walls and such.
how is removing chance from the game improving anything? it's a GAME - games are based around chance!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry weezl, but people wanting skill over chance reduces frustrating gameplay and artificial handicaps - its essentially the cultural reasoning behind "hardcore" players picking Bad company 2 over COD. (where the winners are decided by random chance more often than not. [hello supply crates])
Just so you know for future use: NS1 and obviously NS2 are both aimed at being balanced for <u>comp</u> games as well as pubs, means that skill will always take priority over random luck when in regards to player input.
Edit: maybe a visual aid will help show how this can be frustrating, OH and weezle, you DO understand that the spread is still randomized, by rotating the Z angle, right?? Not to mention i already retracted my opinion on a permanent, fixed pattern publicly after someone raised a point regarding crosshair exploiting.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/xt9Pg.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
instead of having a magical number in the background (distance to target reduces the damage) i tried a predefined pattern.
you cannot "learn" how to use this pattern, since it appears randomly in every shot. you need to aim still in the same way as before, but now those lucky and extremely unlucky edge cases are removed. unless you are a fan of RPG mechanics (critical strikes?) i think you welcome this as well. in my opinion 'luck' has no place in a shooter, unless you designed that game especially for that. i think you maybe misinterpreted my previous post somehow
short version:
@ironhorse probability that the pellets are in that fourth is 1/4^N.
for 8 pellets it's already 1 in 65536. statistics are against you.
please do a probability density plot if you're gonna do an illustration.
@Sewlek thanks for your nice answer even though I often say things very harsh!
I did understand the proposed system. when doing a probability density plot it would be circles.
so assuming an arbitrary target, the only factor apart from aim would be distance (more general: angular size) to the target, WITHOUT any chance whatsoever.
the SG effectively becomes the FT cone with dmg decreasing with distance (with some dmg coefficient).
ofc when targets hitbox is taken into account and the chosen rotation, it improves the randomness, but it doesn't seem like a shotgun to me.
the ns1 system was a very good compromise, why not use it (or similar)?
I didn't mean ppl would learn to use the pattern, just learn to recognize its shape (in it's different rotations and/or the radial distances of the pellets).
and yes, one of the <u>comps</u> wrote about how he wanted consistency - for chance to not interfere with skill... what bs I say!
how is removing chance from the game improving anything? it's a GAME - games are based around chance!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Generally introducing chance into a game simply makes it an exercise in futility.
A small amount of chance is fine, but it should never be included any more than necessary, the point of a game is that you do things and the things you do have effects. Chance is the antithesis of that, because it means that your input is irrelevant, so why are you playing the game when your input doesn't matter? Winning is determined by chance, whether and how you play simply doesn't matter. You are at best a machine for rolling the dice. Not my idea of a fun time.
There are a great many excellent games that have absolutely no elements of chance in them, chess springs to mind for example.
the ns1 system was a very good compromise, why not use it (or similar)?
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually we did. now the random functions behaved, lets say 'strange'. it failed due to that for the ns2 shotgun so far. that's something we are fixing, but regardless of that i don't like that randomness. i would like to have full control about the "amount of randomness". does that make sense? :D it is really well achieved by a predefined pattern, and simply manipulating that local coordinate system with 1 random value, rather than having 10 random variables. i guess you either need to play with the shotgun with that change and tell me then the flaws (you are not going to convince me right now) or give me another really good reason why im wrong here.
<u>LMG vs:</u>
Buildings: **
Players: **
<u>Shotgun</u>
B: ****
P: ****
<u>HMG</u>
B: **
P: *****
<u>GL</u>
B: *****
P: *
So the shotgun was more flexible, great for rambos or very small groups, but if you had 3+ dudes you'd probably want the more specialized weapons in there too.
In NS2 this is more like
<u>LMG vs:</u>
Buildings: **
Players: **
<u>Shotgun</u>
B: ****
P: ****
(lose two stars vs armoured targets)
<u>GL</u>
B: ***
P: ***
(shorter fuse but much less ammo)
<u>Flamethrower</u>
B: **
P: **
(may prevent enemy from fleeing)
having no chance at all making everything fully predictable would make things very boring I think.
there has to be a good balance, I simply don't see it in this proposed system, but I see it in ns1.
<!--quoteo(post=1932961:date=May 3 2012, 07:13 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ May 3 2012, 07:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->actually we did. now the random functions behaved, lets say 'strange'. it failed due to that for the ns2 shotgun so far. that's something we are fixing, but regardless of that i don't like that randomness. i would like to have full control about the "amount of randomness". does that make sense? :D it is really well achieved by a predefined pattern, and simply manipulating that local coordinate system with 1 random value, rather than having 10 random variables. i guess you either need to play with the shotgun with that change and tell me then the flaws (you are not going to convince me right now) or give me another really good reason why im wrong here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->agree, I have to try for myself in practice ofc.
<!--quoteo(post=1933046:date=May 3 2012, 02:35 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 3 2012, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On shotgun being The Ultimate Weapon, wasn't it more like this?:
<u>LMG vs:</u>
Buildings: **
Players: **
<u>Shotgun</u>
B: ****
P: ****
<u>HMG</u>
B: **
P: *****
<u>GL</u>
B: *****
P: *
So the shotgun was more flexible, great for rambos or very small groups, but if you had 3+ dudes you'd probably want the more specialized weapons in there too.
In NS2 this is more like
<u>LMG vs:</u>
Buildings: **
Players: **
<u>Shotgun</u>
B: ****
P: ****
(lose two stars vs armoured targets)
<u>GL</u>
B: ***
P: ***
(shorter fuse but much less ammo)
<u>Flamethrower</u>
B: **
P: **
(may prevent enemy from fleeing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
very good sum-up!
You can always do what quake3 does and use a consistent pattern for server side registration, but display a random pattern (or one of a few premade) on the client for visual effect. There's also a toggle so players can choose fixed or random decals. I think it would be easier to process and result in more consistent damage.]
ns1 worked in a similar way except the server registration was random also. The client displayed a differnt pattern than what was actually shot unless lag compensation was turned off.