What's the point of having more then 1 hive anymore? You can even have 5 minute hive 1 onos. Why don't we just remove hives from the game and just have combat mode at this point?
Having multiple hives seems like it's always been a critical part of NS. While now is a good time to play around with the game mechanics and try different things, I do hope they go back a bit in the other direction so the second hive isn't purely optional.
There are more reasons to have a second hive than an additional CC currently.
2nd Hive: Additional eggs Additional upgrade slot Additional energy for nutrient mist Additional root for your cyst chains
2nd CC: Additional energy for nano-shield Additional IPs
I'd even go so far to argue that additional IP spawn locations aren't really even a good thing. It is better to have all your marines spawn in one location and branch out. For aliens this is less of an issue as they can choose which hive to spawn at and they also have the mobility to get around the map much faster than marines.
I think it would be interesting to increase the potency of alien upgrades, but make them harder to get overall.
Take carapace for example. I know its good and all and can obviously give skulks a very big advantage early game, but as a marine I have never thought "oh no the aliens have carapace already, we are surely doomed unless we do something about this". It really isn't a big deal at the moment, regardless of which upgrade is taken.
I think if upgrades were generally harder to get, perhaps through prohibitive costs, or maybe requiring that the upgrade structure has matured before the upgrade become available, then we would see more variation in alien comm strategies, as a quick cara upgrade wouldn't be the obvious choice. Additionally, if, to compensate for this, the upgrades were more potent, the marines would genuinely fear an alien team that sacrificed expansion for rapid upgrades, and the marines would need to adjust their strategy to be able to hold their own in combat. It would also provide a concrete reason for getting another hive, and give the marines good incentive to prevent it.
It would, however, create quite a watershed moment. The aliens would go from underpowered to incredibly strong very quickly. This is where the tiered upgrade system performed well. I think that, when it is a single upgrade that comes in instantly at full power, it really is jarring to the strategic feeling of the game. I remember in NS1 when alien teams would often build 2 upgrade chambers, and wait for res for the third, rather than multiple players going gorge.
Remember when Aliens had to build 3 of each upgrade chambers to get the full effect. Why not just translate that over to the number of hives? Instead of a ~33.3% for each number of hives, make it 40%. Give them a bonus for holding 3 hives.
One hive: 40% carapace upgrade. Two hives: 80% Three hives: 120%
Each upgrade could work the same way. Cloak might need a slight change, possibly staying cloaked even while running?
<!--quoteo(post=1929749:date=Apr 25 2012, 03:21 PM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Apr 25 2012, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are more reasons to have a second hive than an additional CC currently.
2nd Hive: Additional eggs Additional upgrade slot Additional energy for nutrient mist Additional root for your cyst chains<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 2nd hive is actually very good, and these points show it well. It also gives you more map control.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
but you don't <b>need </b>a 2nd hive for map control. and lets be honest, no commander goes for 2 hives right away, they just got for 1 hive aug. thats an issue. theres no tradeoffs occurring there. No variance in strat.
besides the upgrade slot, the other 3 reasons are the same / just as bad as marine CCs.
i like Mister Nub's idea better and then it should translate to marine CCs as well. techpoint importance is.. er.. important.
<!--quoteo(post=1929796:date=Apr 26 2012, 12:33 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 26 2012, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2nd hive is actually very good, and these points show it well. It also gives you more map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Currectly its much more effiecient to get RT's for lifeforms, second hive is more of ender nothing is decided when its time to get it.
Should have said it more clearly. 2nd hive is actually 40 res worth but there are other more important stuff you have to get first. If you get a early 2nd hive though it gets much easier to keep your rts alive and keeps your adv lifeforms on the front lines. The forward healing bases are very useful + 2nd upgrade. But I could see it very viable with minor changes with the alien tech tree.
But I did like the old mechanic more than augmentation, mainly because it was so fun to fight the 2nd hive. Now you only kinda attack the rts for the first 8-10 mins of the game.
The advantage of multiple hives is for more security and spawn for the alien team, as well as upgrades (though that is mostly null at this point since the prevailing meta is to grab cara then re-evolve w/ regen then back to cara). For the marines it means more energy for scans, nano, and beacon. Spawning more IPs is somewhat disadvanageous for the marine team as compared to the benefit of aliens getting faster spawns; aliens have super mobility but marines require a phase gate to maintain any sort of mobility near the aliens' mobility. Overall both teams need more benefit for controlling multiple TPs IMO. I outlined an idea for changing the mechanics of evolution for aliens which involved a larger benefit from multiple hives. For marines, there could be a decrease in the cost of weapons/items, perhaps a deduction of 5 pres, which would align with the tactical advantage that aliens would gain in my suggestion.
<!--quoteo(post=1929957:date=Apr 25 2012, 10:55 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Apr 25 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now with the wave spawning change for the alien team, does this also negate the egg advantage of securing multiple hives?
Can we even attack eggs when assaulting hives?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It did indeed negate faster respawns when securing a second hive.
With two, even three hives, I was still waiting 20 seconds PLUS an additional +2 or +3 seconds for the timer to even START.
Unless they reduce the timer per hive, this is a really terrible change.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1930023:date=Apr 25 2012, 10:26 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Apr 25 2012, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It did indeed negate faster respawns when securing a second hive.
With two, even three hives, I was still waiting 20 seconds PLUS an additional +2 or +3 seconds for the timer to even START.
Unless they reduce the timer per hive, this is a really terrible change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you never had "faster" spawns, you just only have ever had X amount of possible "slots" or eggs to spawn from. When these dwindled due to people dying frequently you had to wait for an egg to spawn in a queue. 2nd hive , while admittedly not that important anymore, does still give you MORE eggs. this doesn't mean you spawn faster , just like the previous patch, but it does mean you have more places and chances to spawn.
<!--quoteo(post=1929807:date=Apr 26 2012, 12:51 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 26 2012, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but you don't <b>need </b>a 2nd hive for map control. and lets be honest, no commander goes for 2 hives right away, they just got for 1 hive aug. thats an issue. theres no tradeoffs occurring there. No variance in strat.
besides the upgrade slot, the other 3 reasons are the same / just as bad as marine CCs.
i like Mister Nub's idea better and then it should translate to marine CCs as well. techpoint importance is.. er.. important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. There is no need to decide between Hive1 augmentation and a second hive. If I'm com, I build so much RTs, as I can hold, together with carapace upgrade. Constantly misting my hive... And as soon as I get 40res placing the next hive on a secure location. I never had the problem of not getting/having 20res when the augmentation upgrade is ready to be researched.
2. A second upgrade is a huge advantage.
and what you all are forgetting (or haven't read the design doc) <u><b>3. You will need a second hive very soon to get Tier 3 weapons.</b></u> Maturing a second hive takes time. Tier 3 weapons will be some kind of game enders. Placing a second hive soon, will be a strategic option.
Stop making balance discussions without looking at the missing features. The whole second hive mechanic builds on top of the tier 3 augmentation. It would be a waste of time to fundamentally change this, before the tier 3 weapons are in.
I do think that hives should be a lot more crucial to aliens then comm chairs are to marines, atm the hive is a luxury one gets after the far more crucial augmentation WHICH IS WRONG OH SO WRONG!!! Or since they dont bottleneck at the same resource (time for aug res for hive) you can have both! Still think hive should be more important than simply a 2nd upgrade slot, just look at how big it is! Surely size = importance!
Having played these changes it feels so much less like NS. The battle for the second hive was always the epic struggle for the midgame. If aliens failed it wasn't a guaranteed loss but it was a huge setback. It also forced them to fight on 2 fronts to hold those awesome 2nd alien abilities. It just felt so much different in a way I liked much more.
Yea, extra hives should have a bigger impact on the game. Aliens having to expand while marines could turtle is the kind of asymmetric gameplay that made NS great. Allowing aliens to turtle like they currently can just makes for dull gameplay.
Comments
2nd Hive:
Additional eggs
Additional upgrade slot
Additional energy for nutrient mist
Additional root for your cyst chains
2nd CC:
Additional energy for nano-shield
Additional IPs
I'd even go so far to argue that additional IP spawn locations aren't really even a good thing. It is better to have all your marines spawn in one location and branch out. For aliens this is less of an issue as they can choose which hive to spawn at and they also have the mobility to get around the map much faster than marines.
Take carapace for example. I know its good and all and can obviously give skulks a very big advantage early game, but as a marine I have never thought "oh no the aliens have carapace already, we are surely doomed unless we do something about this". It really isn't a big deal at the moment, regardless of which upgrade is taken.
I think if upgrades were generally harder to get, perhaps through prohibitive costs, or maybe requiring that the upgrade structure has matured before the upgrade become available, then we would see more variation in alien comm strategies, as a quick cara upgrade wouldn't be the obvious choice. Additionally, if, to compensate for this, the upgrades were more potent, the marines would genuinely fear an alien team that sacrificed expansion for rapid upgrades, and the marines would need to adjust their strategy to be able to hold their own in combat. It would also provide a concrete reason for getting another hive, and give the marines good incentive to prevent it.
It would, however, create quite a watershed moment. The aliens would go from underpowered to incredibly strong very quickly. This is where the tiered upgrade system performed well. I think that, when it is a single upgrade that comes in instantly at full power, it really is jarring to the strategic feeling of the game. I remember in NS1 when alien teams would often build 2 upgrade chambers, and wait for res for the third, rather than multiple players going gorge.
Now you can just half play until augmentation, then push and win :(
I really like the importance ofa 2nd hive.
One hive: 40% carapace upgrade.
Two hives: 80%
Three hives: 120%
Each upgrade could work the same way. Cloak might need a slight change, possibly staying cloaked even while running?
2nd Hive:
Additional eggs
Additional upgrade slot
Additional energy for nutrient mist
Additional root for your cyst chains<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2nd hive is actually very good, and these points show it well. It also gives you more map control.
and lets be honest, no commander goes for 2 hives right away, they just got for 1 hive aug. thats an issue. theres no tradeoffs occurring there. No variance in strat.
besides the upgrade slot, the other 3 reasons are the same / just as bad as marine CCs.
i like Mister Nub's idea better and then it should translate to marine CCs as well.
techpoint importance is.. er.. important.
Currectly its much more effiecient to get RT's for lifeforms, second hive is more of ender nothing is decided when its time to get it.
But I did like the old mechanic more than augmentation, mainly because it was so fun to fight the 2nd hive. Now you only kinda attack the rts for the first 8-10 mins of the game.
Can we even attack eggs when assaulting hives?
With the current spawning system, I don't think this is true.
Can we even attack eggs when assaulting hives?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It did indeed negate faster respawns when securing a second hive.
With two, even three hives, I was still waiting 20 seconds PLUS an additional +2 or +3 seconds for the timer to even START.
Unless they reduce the timer per hive, this is a really terrible change.
With two, even three hives, I was still waiting 20 seconds PLUS an additional +2 or +3 seconds for the timer to even START.
Unless they reduce the timer per hive, this is a really terrible change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you never had "faster" spawns, you just only have ever had X amount of possible "slots" or eggs to spawn from. When these dwindled due to people dying frequently you had to wait for an egg to spawn in a queue.
2nd hive , while admittedly not that important anymore, does still give you MORE eggs. this doesn't mean you spawn faster , just like the previous patch, but it does mean you have more places and chances to spawn.
and lets be honest, no commander goes for 2 hives right away, they just got for 1 hive aug. thats an issue. theres no tradeoffs occurring there. No variance in strat.
besides the upgrade slot, the other 3 reasons are the same / just as bad as marine CCs.
i like Mister Nub's idea better and then it should translate to marine CCs as well.
techpoint importance is.. er.. important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. There is no need to decide between Hive1 augmentation and a second hive.
If I'm com, I build so much RTs, as I can hold, together with carapace upgrade.
Constantly misting my hive...
And as soon as I get 40res placing the next hive on a secure location.
I never had the problem of not getting/having 20res when the augmentation upgrade is ready to be researched.
2. A second upgrade is a huge advantage.
and what you all are forgetting (or haven't read the design doc)
<u><b>3. You will need a second hive very soon to get Tier 3 weapons.</b></u> Maturing a second hive takes time. Tier 3 weapons will be some kind of game enders. Placing a second hive soon, will be a strategic option.
Stop making balance discussions without looking at the missing features. The whole second hive mechanic builds on top of the tier 3 augmentation. It would be a waste of time to fundamentally change this, before the tier 3 weapons are in.
I do think that hives should be a lot more crucial to aliens then comm chairs are to marines, atm the hive is a luxury one gets after the far more crucial augmentation WHICH IS WRONG OH SO WRONG!!! Or since they dont bottleneck at the same resource (time for aug res for hive) you can have both! Still think hive should be more important than simply a 2nd upgrade slot, just look at how big it is! Surely size = importance!