I think the solution in the game currently feels really weird and its not fun for anyone. To me it feels like NS1 is the justification for the decision and many of the weapons/systems are becoming exactly the same as ns1 and the game is starting to play that way which is both good and bad in some ways. As i understand their vision aliens are suppose to be superior in regards to movement but it doesn't mean that marines need to feel like they are dragging anchors around. Many things are going to have to be tweaked for marine movement if you change the jumping because of its consequence of buffing skulks/aliens.
My opinion on the subject. -Marines are a bit too slow in general, shouldn't win a foot race against aliens though(running,sprinting, backwards, strafing) Maps feel a bit small but that's a different story but that could justify the current speeds. -Jumping should be for navigating terrain and moving around the map, the weapons shouldn't be able to be fired when jumping unless marine has a jetpack/exo.
Solution: -Remove ability to fire while jumping -I don't know if movement acceleration/deceleration is in the game but have marines decelerate a tiny bit when they land when they land instead of stopping them. -Increase backwards speed slightly -Give marines the ability to sprint while strafing.
This at least will give marines a chance to move out of the way and create some distance vs a skulk.
The idea is to deter people from doing it. I envision sort hurdle runners carrying a rifle and trying to fire; the weapon would be flying around. You could fire it.. would you want to? I see the argument of giving players that choice which raises the skill cap so to speak, good player wouldn't fire it while jumping while another would. Not being able to aim while jumping and having bullets just follow where the gun is pointed would work. Spreading weapon fire just for the sake of compensation of jumping is weird, its a weapon it should fire where its pointed. I personally don't like how the rifle actually fires currently, its inaccurate for the sake of being inaccurate which feels weird instead of having actual recoil. Having to deal with recoil in this game would be a bit too much but I think the recoil inaccuracy could feel a bit better with slight weapon/crosshair shaking so it feels as if the gun is moving around instead of havng bullets that don't go straight. lol.
<!--quoteo(post=1930679:date=Apr 27 2012, 03:37 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Apr 27 2012, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would prefer fire be spread if it came down to this.. there's no reason someone CAN'T jump and press an automatic weapon's trigger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spread makes almost no difference at very close distance (when you would be jumping to avoid a skulk). This isn't cs where you are engaging enemies at distance. Most combat takes place within a few feet. Unless you add a ridiculous amount of spread so that the weapon is basically useless and then you may as well just not be able to fire at all. IMO adding spread to the weapon is not a good solution at all. I know that "realistically" you could still press the trigger, but it's a game, so it doesn't need to be hyper realistic.
Day of defeat doesn't let you fire when you're in mid air, to stop people jumping around like loons to avoid being shot. Your weapon just lowers when you jump (like sprinting in ns2) and then comes up again very quickly when you hit the ground. I think this is a better solution for ns2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 27 2012, 02:53 PM) As I argued above the only question that matter is "can a good skulk land each bite on a marine that do crazy moves ?". Go on a server with your friends and test. If so there is no problem. If the marine can consistently escape bite, then we have a problem.
I don't think that's the only question that matters. If you were to use the same thoughts about skulks moving at 100mph for example, you could say "Well, as long as pro players can kill them then it's no problem" but the game would be unbalanced at lower skill levels, and even just as a skulk vs marine of equal skill, if the skulk moving at 100mph is very easy to use then it is unbalanced, because the counter to it is much more difficult.
Same thing with jumping around as a marine. If spamming the space bar makes you much more difficult to hit while being easy to perform then it unbalances skulk vs marine play if hitting the marine is very difficult for the skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I just need to add that doing crazy moves as marines shouldn't be too easy compared to doing crazy moves as skulk. But I think it's already the case; moving smartly and using the map is kind of difficult, specially in team where you cover each other, try not to block fire lines and such.
Hmm I can admit that jump is a little spammy.. I already figured out a way to strafejump bhop in 204-205.
Although in battle it's not a plausible tactic because you need to jump so spastic-ally that you wouldn't be able to aim.
I'm not sure what I think about this.. I kind of did prefer the game when there was that massive jump lag after jumping once back in build 200 or so.. because I'm used to that from CS.
<!--quoteo(post=1930691:date=Apr 27 2012, 11:13 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 27 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Day of defeat doesn't let you fire when you're in mid air, to stop people jumping around like loons to avoid being shot. Your weapon just lowers when you jump (like sprinting in ns2) and then comes up again very quickly when you hit the ground. I think this is a better solution for ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DOD also doesn't have a class that is <i>dedicated to close range melee attacks</i>.
If you are going to put marines up against an enemy that kills them by getting in close, you have to 1. give them the ability to fight in close range with their normal weapon, even if it is less effective and 2. give them the option to try to evade their enemy while doing it.
The whole point is that trying to shoot a skulk up close should be <i>difficult</i> but not <i>impossible.</i> This will encourage people to play the right way, and shoot them from a distance.
Personally, I've always hated this about NS and NS2. Running backwards feels like you're crawling. I don't know about how slow you guys are, but I can run pretty fast going backwards. There's no need for this fake-like circle jumping to even appear in NS2 if there weren't limitations on the backwards movement. Pretty much goes like this every time:
1. I bite a marine. 2. He circle strafes. 3. I have no clue where he is, now I must jump around frantically like an idiot before I can find his legs again. 4. Repeat 1-3.
It just feels lame to lose orientation every time.
Just read some of the replies on here and its starting to get nasty in some quarters. Several posts have degraded to name calling and flaming. I suggest the post is closed as I personally will not take part in what is becoming a play ground slanging match. Its a shame we cant have a mature discussion about one part of a video game without insults being thrown around and accusations made.
Lets leave it to the devs to decide how to make this game.
Jumping is so damn annyoing in NS2. Situation: I'm skulk and i try to bite a marine, he jump's over me and i lost the orientation. P L E A S E FIX the marine jumping, its so stupid, can you not undraw the weapon of them while they jump?
So why wasn't this a problem in NS1 (post-1.04)? Might it have something to do with the terrible FPS? The inconsistent and unpredictable animations? The louzy hit-reg? Perhaps you should wait for all those things to improve, before gimping the crap out of every class in this game.
You should be looking slightly upwards as skulk, and when you run in and bite the marine initially, let go of W.. Then just follow the marines movement with your own using strafe or chasing with forward. What i see most people do is hold W and go past the marine, then loose him completely.
marine jumping annoys me too. their marines in armor. you don't jump and shoot when you want to hit your target. at least, in theme.
i'm a lil more nasty about it in that i feel marines should dice aliens at range *which they do*, but that marines should be almost definately screwed IF the aliens can get close. none of this 1v1 balance stuff, as it doesn't apply in a team game, nor one where one races factor is close range speed and the other is slow ranged shooting. if a marine is running around alone and a skulk gets the drop, the alien SHOULD have a huge advantage bordering on unquestionable kill, and likewise if a marine group play smart with terrain and aliens come at them down long corridors, the aliens should, and do, get torn apart by the gunfire, even WITH leap at times.
in other words, less reliance on 'twitch shooting' and 'marines performing ballet' and more marine emphesis on terrain, firing lines, and teamwork
maybe a 5 second 'jump lock' where if you've been hit by an alien player, you cant' jump until 5 seconds pass unhit, and refreshes on further hit? 5 seconds is almost ALWAYS long enough to either have followup attacks by the attacking alien, and can signify the shock, pain, and sheer weight of being suddenly bitten by a huge dog-sized monster and pulled down, since few things in nature bite once and let go when they want something dead. it means you still get that initial potential jump IF you see it coming.
as for aliens jumping around and cries that if they can marines should too, their dog-like alien monsters that are all speed and bite and little to no ranged, so jumping around makes conceptual sense for them. don't recall the xenomorphs in 'Aliens' walking casually up to the marines to bite them.
<!--quoteo(post=1930725:date=Apr 27 2012, 10:23 AM:name=RTV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RTV @ Apr 27 2012, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Situation: I'm skulk and i try to bite a marine, he jump's over me and i lost the orientation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This topic is still alive? You guys seriously need to get ###### better and learn to aim at something on a vertical axis and stop qqing. If you can't hit something jumping and moving slower than you, fact is, YOU ARE BAD AND SHOULD FEEL BAD. This thread is way out of hand with the attention it has gotten from people who can't aim worth anything and think aliens need the game made easier.
Also, in response to the realism argument, you know what isn't realistic? Jetpacks. You know what isn't realistic? Aliens. You know what isn't realistic? Trained soldiers only being able to sprint about 20 meters. You know what isn't realistic? N. S. ######. 2
<!--quoteo(post=1930833:date=Apr 28 2012, 09:35 AM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ Apr 28 2012, 09:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, if only we could see this in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, you actually can in NS2! *Mindblown* Check it out guys! You guys were right all along about marine jumping being a problem! <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_m3If_MlrTc"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_m3If_MlrTc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1930415:date=Apr 26 2012, 10:02 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 26 2012, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cNMOtvwU2JM"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cNMOtvwU2JM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of all the ns1 trickjumping movies you could've linked, you picked the one where some guy just copied a bunch of jumps from other movies? Fail :D
I can bhop way better.. if you go totally sideways and use actually almost a backwards push (200 degrees with mouse move each way) you can go faster than with sprint.. at least in 204.. I know speed was reduced recently so *shrug*
<!--quoteo(post=1930891:date=Apr 28 2012, 11:36 AM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Apr 28 2012, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can bhop way better.. if you go totally sideways and use actually almost a backwards push (200 degrees with mouse move each way) you can go faster than with sprint.. at least in 204.. I know speed was reduced recently so *shrug*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-_-. Why didnt you pm this to me instead. Its definitely unintended and will probably be bugfixed now. dahm you! :p.
<!--quoteo(post=1930892:date=Apr 27 2012, 08:41 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 27 2012, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-_-. Why didnt you pm this to me instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol I'm just saying.. people want to take skill jumping out of the game but some people, even if tied down with chains, will find a way to use skill in movement even if it's just strafing out of the way like a matador.. what are they going to complain about us moving to the side next? ^^
<!--quoteo(post=1930863:date=Apr 27 2012, 11:53 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Apr 27 2012, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This topic is still alive? You guys seriously need to get ###### better and learn to aim at something on a vertical axis and stop qqing. If you can't hit something jumping and moving slower than you, fact is, YOU ARE BAD AND SHOULD FEEL BAD. This thread is way out of hand with the attention it has gotten from people who can't aim worth anything and think aliens need the game made easier.
Also, in response to the realism argument, you know what isn't realistic? Jetpacks. You know what isn't realistic? Aliens. You know what isn't realistic? Trained soldiers only being able to sprint about 20 meters. You know what isn't realistic? N. S. ######. 2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you seriously need to calm down. Its a post on a gaming forum not a debate about world politics. Can you not post on a forum without flaming, trolling, using caps to make a point or swearing? Immature posts like this are unnecessary and I'm sure if you put your mind to it you could make your feelings on the subject known in a calm mature way.
@ Elodea
Im starting to realise after reading your posts on other subjects you may only come to these forums to disagree with everything regardless of what it is. I watched the bhop videos you posted and you still don't get my point, or maybe you do and just like to cause trouble. I'm going with the latter. I never ever mention bhopping and what you see in the video is what happens when you hammer the space bar. All you have to do is leave a tiny fraction of a second pause between jumps to get around that, but you know that.
I will not be posting on this topic again as I have better things to do, such as actually playing the game.
Maybe you should make a video showing marines escaping your bites consistently, so the problem is clearer for everybody. Personally I do miss some bites when marines are moving around like crazy, but I feel like it's my fault or bad performance/collision fault instead of marine jump.
Comments
My opinion on the subject.
-Marines are a bit too slow in general, shouldn't win a foot race against aliens though(running,sprinting, backwards, strafing) Maps feel a bit small but that's a different story but that could justify the current speeds.
-Jumping should be for navigating terrain and moving around the map, the weapons shouldn't be able to be fired when jumping unless marine has a jetpack/exo.
Solution:
-Remove ability to fire while jumping
-I don't know if movement acceleration/deceleration is in the game but have marines decelerate a tiny bit when they land when they land instead of stopping them.
-Increase backwards speed slightly
-Give marines the ability to sprint while strafing.
This at least will give marines a chance to move out of the way and create some distance vs a skulk.
-Remove ability to fire while jumping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would prefer fire be spread if it came down to this.. there's no reason someone CAN'T jump and press an automatic weapon's trigger.
ns2 community, stay positive! <3
Spread makes almost no difference at very close distance (when you would be jumping to avoid a skulk). This isn't cs where you are engaging enemies at distance. Most combat takes place within a few feet. Unless you add a ridiculous amount of spread so that the weapon is basically useless and then you may as well just not be able to fire at all. IMO adding spread to the weapon is not a good solution at all. I know that "realistically" you could still press the trigger, but it's a game, so it doesn't need to be hyper realistic.
Day of defeat doesn't let you fire when you're in mid air, to stop people jumping around like loons to avoid being shot. Your weapon just lowers when you jump (like sprinting in ns2) and then comes up again very quickly when you hit the ground. I think this is a better solution for ns2.
As I argued above the only question that matter is "can a good skulk land each bite on a marine that do crazy moves ?". Go on a server with your friends and test. If so there is no problem. If the marine can consistently escape bite, then we have a problem.
I don't think that's the only question that matters. If you were to use the same thoughts about skulks moving at 100mph for example, you could say "Well, as long as pro players can kill them then it's no problem" but the game would be unbalanced at lower skill levels, and even just as a skulk vs marine of equal skill, if the skulk moving at 100mph is very easy to use then it is unbalanced, because the counter to it is much more difficult.
Same thing with jumping around as a marine. If spamming the space bar makes you much more difficult to hit while being easy to perform then it unbalances skulk vs marine play if hitting the marine is very difficult for the skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I just need to add that doing crazy moves as marines shouldn't be too easy compared to doing crazy moves as skulk. But I think it's already the case; moving smartly and using the map is kind of difficult, specially in team where you cover each other, try not to block fire lines and such.
Although in battle it's not a plausible tactic because you need to jump so spastic-ally that you wouldn't be able to aim.
I'm not sure what I think about this.. I kind of did prefer the game when there was that massive jump lag after jumping once back in build 200 or so.. because I'm used to that from CS.
DOD also doesn't have a class that is <i>dedicated to close range melee attacks</i>.
If you are going to put marines up against an enemy that kills them by getting in close, you have to 1. give them the ability to fight in close range with their normal weapon, even if it is less effective and 2. give them the option to try to evade their enemy while doing it.
The whole point is that trying to shoot a skulk up close should be <i>difficult</i> but not <i>impossible.</i> This will encourage people to play the right way, and shoot them from a distance.
1. I bite a marine.
2. He circle strafes.
3. I have no clue where he is, now I must jump around frantically like an idiot before I can find his legs again.
4. Repeat 1-3.
It just feels lame to lose orientation every time.
Lets leave it to the devs to decide how to make this game.
Please close.
Sal
Situation: I'm skulk and i try to bite a marine, he jump's over me and i lost the orientation.
P L E A S E FIX the marine jumping, its so stupid, can you not undraw the weapon of them while they jump?
i'm a lil more nasty about it in that i feel marines should dice aliens at range *which they do*, but that marines should be almost definately screwed IF the aliens can get close. none of this 1v1 balance stuff, as it doesn't apply in a team game, nor one where one races factor is close range speed and the other is slow ranged shooting. if a marine is running around alone and a skulk gets the drop, the alien SHOULD have a huge advantage bordering on unquestionable kill, and likewise if a marine group play smart with terrain and aliens come at them down long corridors, the aliens should, and do, get torn apart by the gunfire, even WITH leap at times.
in other words, less reliance on 'twitch shooting' and 'marines performing ballet' and more marine emphesis on terrain, firing lines, and teamwork
maybe a 5 second 'jump lock' where if you've been hit by an alien player, you cant' jump until 5 seconds pass unhit, and refreshes on further hit? 5 seconds is almost ALWAYS long enough to either have followup attacks by the attacking alien, and can signify the shock, pain, and sheer weight of being suddenly bitten by a huge dog-sized monster and pulled down, since few things in nature bite once and let go when they want something dead. it means you still get that initial potential jump IF you see it coming.
as for aliens jumping around and cries that if they can marines should too, their dog-like alien monsters that are all speed and bite and little to no ranged, so jumping around makes conceptual sense for them. don't recall the xenomorphs in 'Aliens' walking casually up to the marines to bite them.
They're actually nanite-enhanced soldiers.. people just refer to them as "marines".
its still a human in armor with a high-powered weapon. playing hopscotch is the last thing they should be doing in a firefight XD
Ah, if only we could see this in NS2.
Solution: Practice
Also, in response to the realism argument, you know what isn't realistic? Jetpacks. You know what isn't realistic? Aliens. You know what isn't realistic? Trained soldiers only being able to sprint about 20 meters. You know what isn't realistic? N. S. ######. 2
Wow, you actually can in NS2! *Mindblown* Check it out guys! You guys were right all along about marine jumping being a problem!
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_m3If_MlrTc"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_m3If_MlrTc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
....for the marine...
Of all the ns1 trickjumping movies you could've linked, you picked the one where some guy just copied a bunch of jumps from other movies? Fail :D
I can bhop way better.. if you go totally sideways and use actually almost a backwards push (200 degrees with mouse move each way) you can go faster than with sprint.. at least in 204.. I know speed was reduced recently so *shrug*
-_-. Why didnt you pm this to me instead. Its definitely unintended and will probably be bugfixed now. dahm you! :p.
@fana i sorry :(.
Madness, nice moves.
lol I'm just saying.. people want to take skill jumping out of the game but some people, even if tied down with chains, will find a way to use skill in movement even if it's just strafing out of the way like a matador.. what are they going to complain about us moving to the side next? ^^
Also, in response to the realism argument, you know what isn't realistic? Jetpacks. You know what isn't realistic? Aliens. You know what isn't realistic? Trained soldiers only being able to sprint about 20 meters. You know what isn't realistic? N. S. ######. 2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you seriously need to calm down. Its a post on a gaming forum not a debate about world politics. Can you not post on a forum without flaming, trolling, using caps to make a point or swearing? Immature posts like this are unnecessary and I'm sure if you put your mind to it you could make your feelings on the subject known in a calm mature way.
@ Elodea
Im starting to realise after reading your posts on other subjects you may only come to these forums to disagree with everything regardless of what it is. I watched the bhop videos you posted and you still don't get my point, or maybe you do and just like to cause trouble. I'm going with the latter. I never ever mention bhopping and what you see in the video is what happens when you hammer the space bar. All you have to do is leave a tiny fraction of a second pause between jumps to get around that, but you know that.
I will not be posting on this topic again as I have better things to do, such as actually playing the game.
Can a dev please close this?
Sal
Personally I do miss some bites when marines are moving around like crazy, but I feel like it's my fault or bad performance/collision fault instead of marine jump.