tRes, pRes and Energy
Solitario
Join Date: 2006-10-29 Member: 58097Members
Join Date: 2006-10-29 Member: 58097Members
<div class="IPBDescription">do we really need 3 Res-Systems?</div>Reading thorugh the forum, I see a lot of people writing about balance.
Changing costs from pRes to tRes, from Energy to tRes, it get's really complicated and exotic.
It looks like tRes and pRes are a core feature of NS2 now, which I really like.
The question is, do we really need Energy as well?
Wouldn't it be easier, to change costs like mist/umbra/beacon/etc. to a p/tRes cost?
Your thoughts on this?
Changing costs from pRes to tRes, from Energy to tRes, it get's really complicated and exotic.
It looks like tRes and pRes are a core feature of NS2 now, which I really like.
The question is, do we really need Energy as well?
Wouldn't it be easier, to change costs like mist/umbra/beacon/etc. to a p/tRes cost?
Your thoughts on this?
Comments
In the earlier build you could have 2 commanders in the beginning to get cysts all across the map. Also in the current build you can switch marine commanders to drop more med/ammo packs (20 med packs > shotgun). <<I think med/ammo packs need to changed into tres, will write about it in details later>>
I don't mind having 2-3 abilties costing energy but majority of things should cost tres/pres. This is more of a issue on the alien side.
And create alot of trade-offs.
An important rule in design is, never make something more complex than it has to be. There is really LITTLE reason why we need such a complex resource model. YES the NS 1 resource model was flawed, however the one they opted for instead is IMO even more flawed. They should have gone for a symmetric system with just 1 resource (applying the ns1 marine resource model to aliens) instead of a symmetric system with 2 (mixing the ns1 marine resource model with the alien one).
An important rule in design is, never make something more complex than it has to be. There is really LITTLE reason why we need such a complex resource model. YES the NS 1 resource model was flawed, however the one they opted for instead is IMO even more flawed. They should have gone for a symmetric system with just 1 resource (applying the ns1 marine resource model to aliens) instead of a symmetric system with 2 (mixing the ns1 marine resource model with the alien one).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must admit, it really bothered me in NS1, that the Comm gives out the weapons. Especially in puplic play, you often play whole games with a LMG only which can be really boring.
I appreciate the pRes for Marines and I think it's one mechanic, which the developer won't change anymore
Scaling for player-numbers and giving players autonomy is important so I can see why they added it. Unfortunately, it has totally bonked the alien side of things and the commander has its fair share of problems too. I can only see it working for field-marines.
As for energy; if energy is only used for abilities that are spammed as soon as you have enough, it basically ends up as a glorified cool-down. It doesn't really make sense for anything to cost energy when there is p.res anyway. And even then, you move it over to t.res! :P
Combat oriented abilities like scan, distress, medpack, umbra, cloak etc. should cost pres while economy oriented abilities such as nutrient mist, nano-construct and cysts should cost tres.
It's simple and should fix the player scaling issues as well as building spamming. It also gives more emphasis on rts and economy and forces the commanders to do decisions instead of spamming every single ability on their disposal.
Spreading all these current abilities over 3 resources results in all 3 resources just being undeveloped and the commander having nothing to do with them lategame. 2 Resources would be more than enough, and makes for more trade-offs.
Energy is needed IMO. There are alot of exampels that energy balances the game better than doing it with res.
1. Infinite Nanoshield
2. Infinite Beacons
3. Infinite Umbra
4. Infinite Scans
5. Infinite Ink Cloud (comming soon)
By just switching the comander. The energy hinders that "abuse", so it is a internal anty spam mechanic.
Also, atleast for the Obs, it forces you to make a important desicion scanning? Saving for Beacon? Or build a 2. Obs to have both?
Same will go as soon as the Shade and Shift are full in the game. You have then to decide if you cloak your team or if you save for a inkcloud?
Shall I use energise or save for echo, or build a 2 structure.
Would it cost res you don't really have a great desicion because you could spam them and you don't really have to choise to trigger Nr. 1 or Nr. 2 because you have res for both of them.
Energy is the only constant in the while ressystem that provides, IMO, a deeper and more controlable balance mechanism in the "metagamelevel".
1. Infinite Nanoshield
2. Infinite Beacons
3. Infinite Umbra
4. Infinite Scans
5. Infinite Ink Cloud (comming soon)
By just switching the comander. The energy hinders that "abuse", so it is a internal anty spam mechanic.
Also, atleast for the Obs, it forces you to make a important desicion scanning? Saving for Beacon? Or build a 2. Obs to have both?
Same will go as soon as the Shade and Shift are full in the game. You have then to decide if you cloak your team or if you save for a inkcloud?
Shall I use energise or save for echo, or build a 2 structure.
Would it cost res you don't really have a great desicion because you could spam them and you don't really have to choise to trigger Nr. 1 or Nr. 2 because you have res for both of them.
Energy is the only constant in the while ressystem that provides, IMO, a deeper and more controlable balance mechanism in the "metagamelevel".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't really matter as it really relies on your t.res more than anything. Need more energy? Secure another tech point. Need more umbra? Drop down more crags. You're spending t.res to get the infinite effect anyways.
1. Infinite Nanoshield
2. Infinite Beacons
3. Infinite Umbra
4. Infinite Scans
5. Infinite Ink Cloud (comming soon)
By just switching the comander. The energy hinders that "abuse", so it is a internal anty spam mechanic.
Also, atleast for the Obs, it forces you to make a important desicion scanning? Saving for Beacon? Or build a 2. Obs to have both?
Same will go as soon as the Shade and Shift are full in the game. You have then to decide if you cloak your team or if you save for a inkcloud?
Shall I use energise or save for echo, or build a 2 structure.
Would it cost res you don't really have a great desicion because you could spam them and you don't really have to choise to trigger Nr. 1 or Nr. 2 because you have res for both of them.
Energy is the only constant in the while ressystem that provides, IMO, a deeper and more controlable balance mechanism in the "metagamelevel".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do agree however if we are going to keep the dual res system we need to have commanders spending them both. We will probably never be able to completly prevent dual commanding but we could make it much less viable.
You can already see the pres issue with the aliens, the commander can easily save up for onos. He does not have anything to spend his pres on thats why somethign must cost pres.
If the commander had high pres cost abilities the aliens would at least suffer if they were forced to use another commander. The spam issue would not exist if the commander was the only one who could use his pres for these abilities. I would also not mind spam if the team has the economy to support it, then the other team is at fault for not keeping the rts down. They would be forced to choose if the numbers are done correctly.
This is even harder to fix for marines since you can keep switching commanders for near unlimited medpacks.
Imo the best solution would be to have commander to just use tres but then we need to figure out a way to get rid of pres without preventing players to buy their own weapons/lifeforms. Othervice it will never happen.
If we can somehow find a way to have just a T.res system without the downside of 'first come first serve equipment and lifeforms', that'd be amazing.
1. Infinite Nanoshield
2. Infinite Beacons
3. Infinite Umbra
4. Infinite Scans
5. Infinite Ink Cloud (comming soon)
By just switching the comander. The energy hinders that "abuse", so it is a internal anty spam mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cooldowns. Also nano-shield needs to be reworked when applied to marines, but that's something entirely different.
My thoughts from another thread. I'm going a bit nuts with the solution ideas, but some of them are worth thinking about.:
<!--quoteo(post=1928735:date=Apr 23 2012, 11:47 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Apr 23 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is near to no decision for the alien com right now.
<ul><li>You have to mist your hive regularly.</li><li>You have to build one upgrade as soon as possible.</li><li>You have to build the second hive as soon as possible and after that a second upgrade.</li><li>As soon as maturation is complete, get tier 2 weapons.</li><li>Try to get as many RTs as possible all the time.</li></ul>
You only get to make decisions, when you have to decide where to spend ONE resource. If you have two or three resources (tres, pres, energy) you don't need to make decisions between these.
Solutions:
<ul><li>make every single tier 2 weapon researchable and costly after maturation of the hive (deciding which weapon you upgrade adds more decisions for the com, where to spend the Tres and what species to evolve and push.)</li><li>increase the time and cost for researchable upgrades drastically. (for example the shield could need to mature before you can research carapace or regen)</li><li>make mist cost tres. (It should not be mandatory to mist the main hive as most as possible. It should be a decision, if you mist or not. Another way to achieve this, is to add more than 2 energy dependent abilities for the hive. Again we need to create possibilities for decisions.)</li><li>make mist only work on one building / egg not in a range, adding again more decisions for the kham. (if ranged it only leads to building many upgrade buildings soon and around the hive.)</li><li>make 2 new upgrades which unlock fade or onos, one per hive. (only available after maturation of the hive)</li><li>or add 4 new upgrades for every life form besides skulk. The alien com can "build" these races and as much as he want. (like building tanks in C&C) The aliens only can gestate into another live form, if the pool of available (for example:) fades is not empty AND they have enough pres.</li></ul>
The last point takes freedom from the players but give the com more options to decide which life forms are available and in which numbers. He produces the life forms as eggs and the normal player can decide to gestate into the available life forms. (At start, there should be 2 or 3 gorges pre build.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Afterwards the tres system would need to be adjusted (increased res gain) so everything would work with the tres. This would also allow aliens to dirrectly attack marine tres since med/ammo would cost tres.
With this there won't be any pres buildup for the commanders and there won't be any issue with dual commanding since pres is useless for a commander. If the alien commander is fixed so he stays in the hive all game then I think this could work very well.
Edit:
Some quick tres calculations I did few weeks back, might be useful to get a feel for the system:
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n8LXpytd85zLpVD9h7pBFFPPtasvKNMSe3Tl7SQfL_g/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n8LXpyt...3Tl7SQfL_g/edit</a>
We must also consider that the resflow needs to be slower than ns1 since the commanders don't need to spend res to drop weapons/equipment.
I also agree cooldowns are a much better way to go about limiting some abilities over an 'energy' resource to be honest.
And the shade f.e. already has a cooldown and its cooldown is identicas to the energy regenerated till you get again enought to reuse it.
And having cooldown on Nanoshield or mist would be counterproductive. I shield a Marine, at the front, omg skulk rush CC, can't shield for 10s, sheeeeeeet.
As alien, you are onosing and suddenly you hear a marine near the hive and the mates are on the other side of the map and can't help the next 10s.
Your com just misted an RT, you call for a mist, but computers says no, marine kills you at 99%.
Having cooldown would mean 1 person can get support the others not.
With energy you can save up to f.e. 4 nanoshields, so you can shield 4 marines at the same time but the tradeoff is you can't shield the CC when the counter skulk rush comes. Same result but much more acceptable, because it was your desicion to do 4 nanos and not 3.
Afterwards the tres system would need to be adjusted (increased res gain) so everything would work with the tres. This would also allow aliens to dirrectly attack marine tres since med/ammo would cost tres.
With this there won't be any pres buildup for the commanders and there won't be any issue with dual commanding since pres is useless for a commander. If the alien commander is fixed so he stays in the hive all game then I think this could work very well.
Edit:
Some quick tres calculations I did few weeks back, might be useful to get a feel for the system:
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n8LXpytd85zLpVD9h7pBFFPPtasvKNMSe3Tl7SQfL_g/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n8LXpyt...3Tl7SQfL_g/edit</a>
We must also consider that the resflow needs to be slower than ns1 since the commanders don't need to spend res to drop weapons/equipment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1, a really simple but elegant solution!!!
If you want to limit the use of abilities such as nano shield its a very good idea to have cooldowns. But if the commander should be able to save up 2-3 nano shields or has another energy based ability that he can choose from it might be better to have energy.
And the shade f.e. already has a cooldown and its cooldown is identicas to the energy regenerated till you get again enought to reuse it.
And having cooldown on Nanoshield or mist would be counterproductive. I shield a Marine, at the front, omg skulk rush CC, can't shield for 10s, sheeeeeeet.
As alien, you are onosing and suddenly you hear a marine near the hive and the mates are on the other side of the map and can't help the next 10s.
Your com just misted an RT, you call for a mist, but computers says no, marine kills you at 99%.
Having cooldown would mean 1 person can get support the others not.
With energy you can save up to f.e. 4 nanoshields, so you can shield 4 marines at the same time but the tradeoff is you can't shield the CC when the counter skulk rush comes. Same result but much more acceptable, because it was your desicion to do 4 nanos and not 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not on topic... but having to use nano-shield to prevent an anti-climactic game over tells you that something else is broken. In this instance, nano-shield is a band-aid, not a strategic tool.
Marines
Nano-shield: p.res
Nano-construct: p.res
Scan: p.res
Distress Beacon: Cooldown/obs (+ maybe 'advanced obs' upgrade that cuts cooldown and incrased detection range or something like that)
Aliens
Shade: passive
Umbra: p.res
Nutrient Mist: p.res
Why do we need energy anyway? Pretty much all the abilities can be considered 'support', so they can easily go to costing p.res. This would increase the amount of p.res sinks and force more choices/trade-offs on the commanders. (Do I support my aliens with p.res on the field or do I use it on our economy? etc) P.res is a pretty undeveloped resource for the alien comm, and energy is an undeveloped, confusing, redundant resource for both. Cutting it would make the game simpler and easier to balance, with more depth and choices.
Either this or cut commander p.res and use only energy/t.res. I think everyone will agree using 3 resources is unnecessary and just makes this overly complex.
<b>Scrap Energy completely and use pres for this.</b> (sure, the costs of everything has to be decreased)
Again: You only get to make decisions when you have to decide between two things that cost the same resource. If the two things cost a different resource each, I don't have to decide which I take. I can take both. This pretty much sums up, how the alien com works right now.
Misting is the best use for hive energy, even umbra and stealth have their own energy pool. No need to make a decision, makes the alien com so boring.
And to those that fear, these abilities will be spammed: If you spam one ability, you won't have enough pres to make this important beacon or you can't mist anymore because you spammed spikes.
I would even go so far to split the alien upgrades more, to add more decision making to the com:
<ul><li>lerk, fade, onos has to be researched in the hive for tres</li><li>every single tier 2 and tier 3 weapon has to be researched for tres (You need tier 2 and a second hive to get tier 3. example: research leap for the skulk before you can research xenocide)</li><li>bring back 3 upgrade levels for the craig, shade, shift upgrades (Now you can balance carapace with the other upgrades. So it is not anymore the best choice. For example by making lvl1 and 2 weak, but giving a huge advantage to lvl1 silence. You have the tradeoff to get carapace later, because it gets really usefull when lvl3 or get silence, which is very useful at lvl1... and so on)</li><li>if you would to take this ideas even further, let the com "buy" lifeforms for his aliens from tres. He produces (for example) 2 fades. Now 2 player can evolve to fade, if they have enough pres.</li><li>same could go for marine weapons. The com builds them for tres and the players can only buy so much from their pres.</li></ul>
This would allow pres4kills without the negative side effects. Because the com needs tres to get the weapons available in the necessary amounts.
And it adds real decision-making like: Do I make a shotgun rush? Or should I research weapon upgrade 1 for the same amount of t-res?
They've stated they don't want to take away player control in what lifeform to play, so this is probably not going to happen. At the very least though they should consider requiring a 'upgrade' for the onos, so that an early game onos is weaker until he gets the tech investment (which would scale him to mid/late game) This can be made easily visible on the model (just make a non matured onos smaller/less armour plated to represent less hp/armour. This would only be necessary for the onos because quite frankly the onos is the only lifeform that is devastating even without its second tier ability (stomp), you can't balance the onos on just abilities like you can with the lerk and fade (Reworking gore won't fix the fact that the onos is impossible to take out early game)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->every single tier 2 and tier 3 weapon has to be researched for tres (You need tier 2 and a second hive to get tier 3. example: research leap for the skulk before you can research xenocide)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Definitely agree with this, the comm still has no choices currently, I actually thought augmentation was going to be a submenu, not a 'one button upgrades all' kind of deal. Not to mention it's FAR too cheap for what it does. (It really takes most lifeforms to the 'next level')
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bring back 3 upgrade levels for the craig, shade, shift upgrades (Now you can balance carapace with the other upgrades. So it is not anymore the best choice. For example by making lvl1 and 2 weak, but giving a huge advantage to lvl1 silence. You have the tradeoff to get carapace later, because it gets really usefull when lvl3 or get silence, which is very useful at lvl1... and so on)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> More levels would make them scale better towards late game, increase the tech sink/choices and add more depth to alien gameplay in general, so I would agree with that as well. Failing that, they should consider having 'mature' shells give more armour (so that they scale automatically over time, which still gives the khamm an option to invest p.res on misting a shell over something else)