<!--quoteo(post=1926094:date=Apr 16 2012, 06:09 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Apr 16 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you can get t3 abilities on 1 hive? did I read that correctly? I hope augmenting takes a sizable amount of t-res, alien hives are so easily turtled in early game to a near invincible state with just 1-2 crags and a whip (umbra is OP imo- AoE nano-shield). So really the only reason to go for 2 hives is for additional upgrades. I like the general idea of the changes but further de-emphasis on multiple hives is a little saddening, they seem very trivial now- why spend 75 t-res on something like that when you could get 7 more defensive structures to turtle on 1 hive / fortify a few RTs and wait around for blink fades and stomp-nos?
But since we don't know the t-res cost for any of this I could be totally wrong, will have to wait and see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 40 T-res for a hive now.
You can't evolve t2 and t3 abilities until AFTER the initial hive has become fully mature, which will take quite a long time.
Very fascinating changes. Having more gorges with no normal structures to spend their res on means hydras will now be a part of every game.
I think I'll hold back with comments until I've actually played it. The changes sound quite interesting indeeded, though I'd question some right now (on a first glance it seems hives are now absolutly unneccessary unless as a backup), but I want to see how it plays out for now, alien com definetly needed a lot of changes and this sounds exactly what may have been needed.
Must admit this is very interesting and I really do hope this works out well. I'm bit worried that the alien commander will still be boring to play but if he has enough stuff to do it should be alright.
I also think its very important to be very open minded to this idea, its a new one and I can't really connect it with anything that I have seen before(at least I don't know of any game). It will probably need some work and few builds to adjust but I could see this end up being awesome.
Anyways, good job Charlie, this sounds awesome and is very creative.
<!--quoteo(post=1926090:date=Apr 16 2012, 08:04 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Apr 16 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... What I'm suggesting is a change in the carapace for the remaining alien structures, namely the Crag, Shift, Shell, and Spur, to reflect their Newborn status by using carapace similar to the Whip; their mature versions could then use the bony versions, depending on the decision for structure armor amount (Shade, Veil). It would be really cool and distinctive, but hopefully not involve a lot of work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds good to me. Alot of real life animals that undergo a molt process, such as crabs/shrimp, their shells are very soft and can be transparent. They will hide until the shells can harden up and sometimes the shell loses it's transparency and becomes opaque. So as a visual guide to marines, it might be useful to know this state at a glance.
I'm very hopeful of the B205 changes. They make me think of the Aliens as a hive-mind instead of a single intelligence (alien comm), which is something I always thought of back in NS1. It's solid contrast to the top-down command chain of the Marines.
Looks like a step in the right direction. I really love that you have made the alien tiers separate from hive expansions. While it may not be perfectly balanced at first I am positive this is the best way forward for creating a better game. I would even say that it might not be enough. I've always be in favour of having to individually evolve the tier 2 and 3 abilities rather than just unlocking them at once.
If possible, I was hoping to get some clarification on the second hive vs mature first hive and tier 2 abilities (bilebomb, blink, leap, stomp).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 Hives no longer needed to unlock Tier 2 weapons, and 3 for Tier 3 weapons. Now Hives can evolve Augmentation which does the same thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does this mean that 2 hives (neither mature) WILL NOT grant access to tier 2 abilities? Or can you still get a second hive and have access to leap/blink/etc?
If the latter (2 immature hives = tier 2 abilities) then the game will be completely broken this patch. A second hive costs just 40 tres and a minute to build (less with a gorge helping). You could have access to skulk leap about 30 seconds into the game. Or you could get 2-3 harvesters up and have access to skulk leap a couple minutes into the game. Either way, tier 2 abilities off such a cheap, fast, 2nd hive will be incredibly overpowered. You'd have tier 2 abilities (the main part that is currently imbalancing alien play) coming out even faster than in b204.
The maturing stuff looks really neat and the mature times seem good at first look. But the 2nd hive build time and cost (if it grants more than just eggs // 2nd upgrade) seems really low. Current hive 2 build time is 200 seconds(maybe 120 or 140 with spam cata). b205 hive build time is 60 seconds (maybe 30 with gorge). That's a quarter of the time to rush 2nd hive.
I believe Augmentation only unlocks on a Mature Hive, leading to a rough 18 minute wait (without misting + aug evolve time = 30 secs) in order to unlock 2nd set of lifeform abilities. A new Hive would be required to unlock the 3rd set, so 2 Mature Hives + 2 Augmentation evolutions are required to unlock all lifeform abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1926121:date=Apr 17 2012, 03:07 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Apr 17 2012, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does this mean that 2 hives (neither mature) WILL NOT grant access to tier 2 abilities? Or can you still get a second hive and have access to leap/blink/etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what I understand it means that a second hive will only give you more eggs and energy. Unlocking the tier 2 abilities will be done at your first hive after it matures.
I love the way these changes sound, and look forward to trying out the new Kham role. I think it's a big leap in the right direction for NS2.
I would like to see Gorge heal spray halved in cost/effectiveness and doubled in fire rate for the next build though; if the little guys are going to spend even longer spraying things, the obvious downtime should be reduced nearer to pre-GorgeNerf levels, even if the effects don't get a buff.
<!--quoteo(post=1926124:date=Apr 16 2012, 10:12 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Apr 16 2012, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe Augmentation only unlocks on a Mature Hive, leading to a rough 18 minute wait (without misting + aug evolve time = 30 secs) in order to unlock 2nd set of lifeform abilities. A new Hive would be required to unlock the 3rd set, so 2 Mature Hives + 2 Augmentation evolutions are required to unlock all lifeform abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1926126:date=Apr 16 2012, 10:18 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 16 2012, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I understand it means that a second hive will only give you more eggs and energy. Unlocking the tier 2 abilities will be done at your first hive after it matures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I was also thinking, but initial notes weren't completely clear on it.
If it works like we're assuming it does, then it will definitely be worth testing out and trying to break balance.
After reading through the design doc, I feel like Foresight should be only usable on infestation. I'll have to wait and see it play before I decide anything though. Does this replace always-on hive sight for Kharaa?
Also, I really, really like the concept for Enzyme Cloud, and I hope it makes it in to a future build at some point.
Looking forward to trying it as I love to command.
I want to point out this statement - The Alien Commander is a “gardener†- he interacts <u>DIRECTLY </u>with the environment
Untill the alien commander stops interacting with drifters to effect the environment you will never achieve this design goal.
Drifters are what create a barrier between the commander and the environment, They also make his interface a clunky experience I understand the need for asymmetry but it's getting in the way of a design goal and smooth command interface experience.
I'm very happy with this design decision. This is the type of creativity I have come to expect from UWE. It is a beautifully easy concept to understand while adding so many layers to the commander's choices and the overall metagame.
One suggestion though. I'm not sure about the cyst spike. I like the concept but the graphical implementation seems odd to me. Instead of having it a spike just make it a "super umbra" cloud. Think of Umbra on steriods. The cloud is so thick it stops all non-kharaa matter from passing through it, bullets, marines, macs, grenades, and so on. I feel this will work much better with the whole enzyme/bacteria/cloud theme you have going.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien commander can spend player res on pre-evolving eggs into lifeforms (full cost due to ability to trade commander positions). He can also choose to assist players by triggering abilities on cysts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this the lifeform selection found on eggs currently? I wonder how this will turn out...
<!--quoteo(post=1926134:date=Apr 16 2012, 09:48 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Apr 16 2012, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm very happy with this design decision. This is the type of creativity I have come to expect from UWE. It is a beautifully easy concept to understand while adding so many layers to the commander's choices and the overall metagame.
One suggestion though. I'm not sure about the cyst spike. I like the concept but the graphical implementation seems odd to me. Instead of having it a spike just make it a "super umbra" cloud. Think of Umbra on steriods. The cloud is so thick it stops all non-kharaa matter from passing through it, bullets, marines, macs, grenades, and so on. I feel this will work much better with the whole enzyme/bacteria/cloud theme you have going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait until Dynamic Infestation is in before you start counting out sudden growth of infestation; it's been expected that some hallways could grow so thick with DI that Heavies might not be able to fit through ever since their early prototype videos, if I recall.
<!--quoteo(post=1926128:date=Apr 16 2012, 07:25 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Apr 16 2012, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is what I was also thinking, but initial notes weren't completely clear on it.
If it works like we're assuming it does, then it will definitely be worth testing out and trying to break balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current idea is that all of the alien abilities can be unlocked from hive given enough time. This allows one base play. What getting extra hives brings is: eggs, more energy and allowing more than one upgrade to be used at a time. Hope that clears it up.
<!--quoteo(post=1926133:date=Apr 16 2012, 10:47 PM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Apr 16 2012, 10:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looking forward to trying it as I love to command.
I want to point out this statement - The Alien Commander is a “gardener†- he interacts <u>DIRECTLY </u>with the environment
Untill the alien commander stops interacting with drifters to effect the environment you will never achieve this design goal.
Drifters are what create a barrier between the commander and the environment, They also make his interface a clunky experience I understand the need for asymmetry but it's getting in the way of a design goal and smooth command interface experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is the problem with drifters? The comm builds them, like drones, to go make buildings. He's still interacting directly with the environment. Drifters maintain some level of marine's ability to deny buildings. I think it would be terrible if the comm could just drop buildings from the sky. Drifters are a good mechanic given the assumption that the Khamm is going to be building things.
<!--quoteo(post=1926138:date=Apr 16 2012, 10:51 PM:name=Comprox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Comprox @ Apr 16 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current idea is that all of the alien abilities can be unlocked from hive given enough time. This allows one base play. What getting extra hives brings is: eggs, more energy and allowing more than one upgrade to be used at a time. Hope that clears it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perfect. Looking forward to trying to break b205's balance. :p
noooo why did you remove flare :(. My favourite ability sob sob. Hardly anyone realised how good it was.
*edit* Changes sound very interesting and better than the current alien commander system! Its great that your not holed into picking shade/crag right from the start even though its going to cost. Don't think can really make any good feedback without playing and figuring out the metagame.
Seriously though, was there a specific reason why drifter flare was removed? It was the most underated and underplayed ability simply because it was inconvenient and required more positional effort than alien commanders eating full course dinners were willing to bother with. However, it was a pretty awesome experience (for both marines and aliens) when aliens co-ordinated with attack dogs following drifter flares. That it blinded aliens as well didnt make it an OP ability either.
This sounds amazing. Babblers, Hallucination, and Echo are making their appearance as well? :O
I was going to express my dismay at one or two new abilities that marines may become infuriated with, but we'll have to see how it plays out. Aliens standing a better chance vs ARC trains and full rine upgrades during late game sounds great. Can't wait!
<!--quoteo(post=1926141:date=Apr 16 2012, 07:53 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 16 2012, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->noooo why did you remove flare :(. My favourite ability sob sob. Hardly anyone realised how good it was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1926099:date=Apr 16 2012, 09:19 PM:name=thelinx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thelinx @ Apr 16 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926099"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree. Mini-cysts are great for a multitude of reasons. One is helping your commander by placing them next to harvesters so the comm doesn't have to waste pres on a short cyst distance. Hydras are also very good harassment damage, but positioning is key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Gorge is spending enough resources on one mini-cyst to equal three normal cysts. That is not an efficient use of resources, especially when Gorges already have another inefficient resource sink in the Hydra.
Yes, I've seen some great hydra positioning at times; but it usually only works once, as players are typically smart enough to just avoid them or run by the next time around. Marines shouldn't be able to so easily ignore a batch of Hydras when you've invested enough resources into a location to match the cost of an Onos. Would you rather 7-8 Hydras, or an Onos?
Comments
But since we don't know the t-res cost for any of this I could be totally wrong, will have to wait and see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
40 T-res for a hive now.
You can't evolve t2 and t3 abilities until AFTER the initial hive has become fully mature, which will take quite a long time.
Very fascinating changes. Having more gorges with no normal structures to spend their res on means hydras will now be a part of every game.
Does this mean lerks can get bile bomb with one hive? In addition, does this mean fades get blink with one hive?
Does this mean lerks can get bile bomb with one hive? In addition, does this mean fades get blink with one hive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, that seems to be the case.
I'm *very* interested on how this is going to turn out.
I also think its very important to be very open minded to this idea, its a new one and I can't really connect it with anything that I have seen before(at least I don't know of any game). It will probably need some work and few builds to adjust but I could see this end up being awesome.
Anyways, good job Charlie, this sounds awesome and is very creative.
What I'm suggesting is a change in the carapace for the remaining alien structures, namely the Crag, Shift, Shell, and Spur, to reflect their Newborn status by using carapace similar to the Whip; their mature versions could then use the bony versions, depending on the decision for structure armor amount (Shade, Veil). It would be really cool and distinctive, but hopefully not involve a lot of work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds good to me. Alot of real life animals that undergo a molt process, such as crabs/shrimp, their shells are very soft and can be transparent. They will hide until the shells can harden up and sometimes the shell loses it's transparency and becomes opaque. So as a visual guide to marines, it might be useful to know this state at a glance.
Can't wait to try it out!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 Hives no longer needed to unlock Tier 2 weapons, and 3 for Tier 3 weapons.
Now Hives can evolve Augmentation which does the same thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does this mean that 2 hives (neither mature) WILL NOT grant access to tier 2 abilities? Or can you still get a second hive and have access to leap/blink/etc?
If the latter (2 immature hives = tier 2 abilities) then the game will be completely broken this patch. A second hive costs just 40 tres and a minute to build (less with a gorge helping). You could have access to skulk leap about 30 seconds into the game. Or you could get 2-3 harvesters up and have access to skulk leap a couple minutes into the game. Either way, tier 2 abilities off such a cheap, fast, 2nd hive will be incredibly overpowered. You'd have tier 2 abilities (the main part that is currently imbalancing alien play) coming out even faster than in b204.
The maturing stuff looks really neat and the mature times seem good at first look. But the 2nd hive build time and cost (if it grants more than just eggs // 2nd upgrade) seems really low. Current hive 2 build time is 200 seconds(maybe 120 or 140 with spam cata). b205 hive build time is 60 seconds (maybe 30 with gorge). That's a quarter of the time to rush 2nd hive.
From what I understand it means that a second hive will only give you more eggs and energy. Unlocking the tier 2 abilities will be done at your first hive after it matures.
I would like to see Gorge heal spray halved in cost/effectiveness and doubled in fire rate for the next build though; if the little guys are going to spend even longer spraying things, the obvious downtime should be reduced nearer to pre-GorgeNerf levels, even if the effects don't get a buff.
<!--quoteo(post=1926126:date=Apr 16 2012, 10:18 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 16 2012, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I understand it means that a second hive will only give you more eggs and energy. Unlocking the tier 2 abilities will be done at your first hive after it matures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I was also thinking, but initial notes weren't completely clear on it.
If it works like we're assuming it does, then it will definitely be worth testing out and trying to break balance.
Also, I really, really like the concept for Enzyme Cloud, and I hope it makes it in to a future build at some point.
I want to point out this statement - The Alien Commander is a “gardener†- he interacts <u>DIRECTLY </u>with the environment
Untill the alien commander stops interacting with drifters to effect the environment you will never achieve this design goal.
Drifters are what create a barrier between the commander and the environment, They also make his interface a clunky experience
I understand the need for asymmetry but it's getting in the way of a design goal and smooth command interface experience.
One suggestion though. I'm not sure about the cyst spike. I like the concept but the graphical implementation seems odd to me. Instead of having it a spike just make it a "super umbra" cloud. Think of Umbra on steriods. The cloud is so thick it stops all non-kharaa matter from passing through it, bullets, marines, macs, grenades, and so on. I feel this will work much better with the whole enzyme/bacteria/cloud theme you have going.
Is this the lifeform selection found on eggs currently? I wonder how this will turn out...
One suggestion though. I'm not sure about the cyst spike. I like the concept but the graphical implementation seems odd to me. Instead of having it a spike just make it a "super umbra" cloud. Think of Umbra on steriods. The cloud is so thick it stops all non-kharaa matter from passing through it, bullets, marines, macs, grenades, and so on. I feel this will work much better with the whole enzyme/bacteria/cloud theme you have going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait until Dynamic Infestation is in before you start counting out sudden growth of infestation; it's been expected that some hallways could grow so thick with DI that Heavies might not be able to fit through ever since their early prototype videos, if I recall.
If it works like we're assuming it does, then it will definitely be worth testing out and trying to break balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current idea is that all of the alien abilities can be unlocked from hive given enough time. This allows one base play. What getting extra hives brings is: eggs, more energy and allowing more than one upgrade to be used at a time. Hope that clears it up.
I want to point out this statement - The Alien Commander is a “gardener†- he interacts <u>DIRECTLY </u>with the environment
Untill the alien commander stops interacting with drifters to effect the environment you will never achieve this design goal.
Drifters are what create a barrier between the commander and the environment, They also make his interface a clunky experience
I understand the need for asymmetry but it's getting in the way of a design goal and smooth command interface experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is the problem with drifters? The comm builds them, like drones, to go make buildings. He's still interacting directly with the environment. Drifters maintain some level of marine's ability to deny buildings. I think it would be terrible if the comm could just drop buildings from the sky. Drifters are a good mechanic given the assumption that the Khamm is going to be building things.
<!--quoteo(post=1926138:date=Apr 16 2012, 10:51 PM:name=Comprox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Comprox @ Apr 16 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current idea is that all of the alien abilities can be unlocked from hive given enough time. This allows one base play. What getting extra hives brings is: eggs, more energy and allowing more than one upgrade to be used at a time. Hope that clears it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perfect. Looking forward to trying to break b205's balance. :p
*edit* Changes sound very interesting and better than the current alien commander system! Its great that your not holed into picking shade/crag right from the start even though its going to cost. Don't think can really make any good feedback without playing and figuring out the metagame.
Seriously though, was there a specific reason why drifter flare was removed? It was the most underated and underplayed ability simply because it was inconvenient and required more positional effort than alien commanders eating full course dinners were willing to bother with. However, it was a pretty awesome experience (for both marines and aliens) when aliens co-ordinated with attack dogs following drifter flares. That it blinded aliens as well didnt make it an OP ability either.
I was going to express my dismay at one or two new abilities that marines may become infuriated with, but we'll have to see how it plays out. Aliens standing a better chance vs ARC trains and full rine upgrades during late game sounds great. Can't wait!
Drifter train won't feel the same anymore D;
Mini-cysts are great for a multitude of reasons. One is helping your commander by placing them next to harvesters so the comm doesn't have to waste pres on a short cyst distance.
Hydras are also very good harassment damage, but positioning is key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Gorge is spending enough resources on one mini-cyst to equal three normal cysts. That is not an efficient use of resources, especially when Gorges already have another inefficient resource sink in the Hydra.
Yes, I've seen some great hydra positioning at times; but it usually only works once, as players are typically smart enough to just avoid them or run by the next time around. Marines shouldn't be able to so easily ignore a batch of Hydras when you've invested enough resources into a location to match the cost of an Onos. Would you rather 7-8 Hydras, or an Onos?