When will we get a new/better Alien-Vision?
Wolpertinger
Join Date: 2011-12-24 Member: 138958Members
Join Date: 2011-12-24 Member: 138958Members
Comments
I like the current version. What is wrong with the current alien vision?
You can not see effects like fire, medpacks, nanoshield, etc. No one but Charlie himself can tell me, that this is by design...
And the "all yellow" color-scheme is also very ugly. I want to see the pretty graphics of NS2. Don't hide that.
why can't skulks carry flashlights around in their mouths and operate the switch with their tongue? AA batteries not included?
You have to deside, if you wan't to see the marinestructures/mines/marines easy or if you wan't see the cloads or if you are in dark.
You can just turn it off or on all the time for free so a big change isn't really needed.
It is just like the nightvisiongoogles in other games, sometimes you need it with, a big drawback in lighted rooms, or not.
<!--quoteo(post=1925411:date=Apr 14 2012, 09:04 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Apr 14 2012, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really need to be able to see infestation and flames in alien vision mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Open the map or turn AV off for 0.1s ti know where infestation is.... Most of ppl complaining about AV are just lazy..... Comon AV would be a cheat in other games and here it is standart.....
You have to deside, if you wan't to see the marinestructures/mines/marines easy or if you wan't see the cloads or if you are in dark.
You can just turn it off or on all the time for free so a big change isn't really needed.
It is just like the nightvisiongoogles in other games, sometimes you need it with, a big drawback in lighted rooms, or not.
Why? Open the map or turn AV off for 0.1s ti know where infestation is.... Most of ppl complaining about AV are just lazy..... Comon AV would be a cheat in other games and here it is standart.....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure it would be a cheat in other games, like jet packs and nano shield and observation and everything else would be a cheat in a game that has nothing to do with NS2...what's your point? We're all lazy for wanting to improve a feature the devs wanted to implement???
Why would an alien not be able to see it's own species' infestation?
There isn't any logic to alien vision - well we know it's a bug really that these effects aren't showing up.
Has absolutely nothing to do with being lazy it's about having a feature - which the devs wanted to implement - that makes sense.
It makes no sense that you can see these things better: marines, geometry, grenades, structures, friendly players
but these things vanish in alien vision mode: infestation, blood effects, flames, explosions.
but these things vanish in alien vision mode: infestation, blood effects, flames, explosions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think alien vision should be more IR/ heat based (Predator).
Infestation (probably cold/cool) = blue or green.
Blood just leaving the body would be body temperature, so yellow/orange (low priority, other effects should be finished first).
Marines should be orange like they are now.
Grenades would be room temperature before exploding, so they would be green (explosion should be red)
Mines should also be green.
I don't know what temperature lerk spores should be.
Flamethrower needs to be red.
Maybe alien vision could use the new materials system to change the color of these effects.
Because the teams are asymmetrical in design by nature, if you want "equivalents" for everything on both teams you can go and play Team Fortress, Counter Strike, Call of Duty or Battlefield, but that kind of "balance thinking" doesn't work very well for competitive teambased games like NS or Starcraft that have true asymmetrical sides to play.
And as such there are two sides to this issue: From an gamedesign point of view it would make sense for alien vision to be vastly superior to anything Marines can bring to the fight.
Kharaa are highly evolved and specialized predatory lifeforms, the whole concept of the skulk is an ambusher that hides and stalks by having better senses and abilities then an "regular human".
So from a pure lore/gamedesign perspective the alien vision should be far superior to everything a marine has. A marine is still portrayed as an somewhat "normal human being" that's why the player has the easiest time to relate with the marine team in general.
But if you threat it like that and make the AV vastly powerfull/usefull then it could end up as the "default cookie cutter vision mode" and as such you would only add a useless function button players have to press after they respawned. Might as well remove "normal vision" for Kharaa in that scenario and enforce AV on all alien players. So there should be a reason for Kharaa players to switch somewhat between these vision modes, to give players a small risk/reward mechanic while playing by using vision toggles in an efficient way.
Personally i would love for AV to be really gimped at range long range, after all kharaa are more meele focused. To balance that out make it an big advantage in close quarters. Like giving kharaa the option to see "tracks" of marines that passed recently trough.
Have marines leave an invisible trail of odor/nanites when walking around the map, MAC's and ARC's could also have one. These trails would fade out after some time making them more like an ghost image. These ghost images show up in alien vision, giving it an more messy feel while actually fighting. Depending on the effect it could have the disadvantage of making marine that move quickly in place look too "ghosty" like people fighting in a Tron movie. How it looks/works in the end is a matter of design, but i would love for the AV mode to have some kind of "heat tracking" advantage that allows kharaa to track down marines more easily instead of only making it easy to "spot" them.
In a pure gameplay feel it would translate to kharaa skulk players way better that they are "roaming predators" that track down their prey from behind. And as such would better convey the basic gameplay mechanics of the kharaa team that make them so polar to the marine team.
It makes powering/depowering rooms, as well as dropping spores, completely one-sided mechanics for the aliens. Any time you want to see in the dark or through spores, you just push F and it happens. The marines don't have an equivalent. Before you say "but it's asymmetrical!" that doesn't mean there can't/shouldn't be equivalents. Both teams mine from resource towers, have town hall buildings that you kill to win, and so on.
Starcraft is a classic example of a game that achieves symmetry through asymmetric designs (the way NS2 should). Every race has workers and townhalls, but they're all different in how they build and what 'extra' abilities they have (repairing, shields, zerg regen). They didn't make it so the zerg have workers and the terrans don't, in the name of 'asymmetry' because that's a nightmare to balance and it ends up making a trashcan of a game at the end.
Other than making your eyes bleed, what is the downside to using alien vision all the time?
What similar mechanics exist for marines?
- Motion tracking (requires scans/obs, does not give a perfect idea of depth the way alien vision does)
- Flashlight (has almost no visual interaction with flames/spores/infestation/whatever)
Starcraft is a classic example of a game that achieves symmetry through asymmetric designs (the way NS2 should). Every race has workers and townhalls, but they're all different in how they build and what 'extra' abilities they have (repairing, shields, zerg regen). They didn't make it so the zerg have workers and the terrans don't, in the name of 'asymmetry' because that's a nightmare to balance and it ends up making a trashcan of a game at the end.
Other than making your eyes bleed, what is the downside to using alien vision all the time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well what about say, later in the game, you could buy thermal goggles or night vision goggels via prototype lab to replace the flashlight. It would make sence to have those, as an equavlant, because marines in modern times use them so in the future they could be in wider use, or even a new pecice of tech compleatly could be in use.
Yeah, it might be good to provide the marines a way to do something similar.
Or we could remove mechanics like this that do everything for a single button press regardless of context, and don't allow the opposing team to interact at all.
Forget about 'making them like predatory aliens' and all that - if you broke this game down as numbers and graphs on paper, does alien vision actually fit in?
Or we could remove mechanics like this that do everything for a single button press regardless of context, and don't allow the opposing team to interact at all.
Forget about 'making them like predatory aliens' and all that - if you broke this game down as numbers and graphs on paper, does alien vision actually fit in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A fun game experiences that catches players in these lively videogame times needs to be more then "numbers and graphs on paper".
If you want to boil it down to "numbers and papers" you also can't just use Starcraft as an RTS with it's specific elements as an game (that also has an story heavy singleplayer with an completly different gameplay then the competitive MP side of the game) as an "universal example" for every single balance/fun argument.
By your logic marines should get "google glasses with NV" as an upgrade, but if you think along these lines then you are ignoring the already implemented very informative and intrusive HUD that marines now have. That HUD alone is already an heavy differentiator between Marine and Kharaa vision modes/gameplay and as such the marines have their own "advantage in vision mode" build in by game design.
Not everything one side had does need a complete opposite that hard-counters/equals it on the other side. If you think like this you only make both sides heavily symmetrical in terms of tactics and options available. You make the options and their counters too obvious and simple to grasp/learn then you will end up with an flat and predictable game without any depth to explore.
Because the teams aren't symmetrical, as intended and desired by the vast majority of the community, that's why. Why should both teams have the exact same mechanics when that is boring as hell and used in every friggin game out there? NS has always been unique with its asymmetrical design, and I hope it stays that way. You guys whined incessantly when the aliens got a comm because it lost some of the difference between the teams, so why would it be any different if marines suddenly get night vision? If I wanted both teams to have all the same features (aka: lazy balancing), I'd go play CoD or some other boring, cliche human vs human shooter.
and yet they only got more symmetrical from NS1 to NS2?
You see, it's for the following reasons that I've carefully researched:
<ul><li>__________</li></ul>
removing alien ability to see in darkness, see through spores
or giving marines ability to see to see in darkness (beyond currently flashlight implementation) or see through spores is going to defeat that purpose.
removing alien ability to see in darkness, see through spores
or giving marines ability to see to see in darkness (beyond currently flashlight implementation) or see through spores is going to defeat that purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but what's wrong with an end-game thermal-vision upgrade that costs say, I dunno, 50 res from a proto lab?
My bias is obvious. While nightvision goggles make sense in this universe, I think losing the constant marine unease, intense atmosphere, and alien "stalking" is NOT worth it. Marines have their flashlights, pings, and close obs towers... adding to that simply because people think that balance requires an addition to the marine side is just silly.
All alien vision needs to do is balance *itself* and both sides should be happy. If there is a significant enough tradeoff when using it there should be no problem whatsoever with marines NOT having nightvision and thus retaining that intense atmosphere. So then the only thing to figure out is: how does it balance itself? THAT is the proper solution in my mind... simply slapping the same mode onto marines is lazy, uninteresting, and would potentially kill the vibe of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1925531:date=Apr 14 2012, 11:28 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Apr 14 2012, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and yet they only got more symmetrical from NS1 to NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That justifies nothing and is exactly my point: it shouldn't continue to go the symmetrical route and people should stop trying to force it in that direction. There are a massive amount of other shooters that do that and NS2 does not need to become one of them. Self-balance of alien vision is the way to go, not more crap for marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1925538:date=Apr 15 2012, 12:01 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 15 2012, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes you're right, aliens should have a single button-press skill-free mechanic for vision, but the marines should not.
You see, it's for the following reasons that I've carefully researched:
<ul><li>__________</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Always a pleasure dealing with you and your kind.
And yes, they absolutely should. Not everything needs an exact counter and aliens having a special vision mode is on par with pretty much any sci-fi movie or show you'll see. Obviously not all of them do that, but it's practically a staple of the genre to have aliens/monsters have a special mode of vision to stalk their prey. If marines want to see when they shouldn't be able to, they should be putting up an obs or pinging (or using their damn flashlights), but once they can see perfectly in the dark the suspense and hunter/hunted feeling is gone. Marines SHOULD be at a disadvantage in the dark the majority of the time, and it's one of those things that does not need to be "fair" via similar features for both sides because *<b>it should balance itself by having a trade off, as already planned</b>*.
<!--quoteo(post=1925542:date=Apr 15 2012, 12:58 AM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Apr 15 2012, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but what's wrong with an end-game thermal-vision upgrade that costs say, I dunno, 50 res from a proto lab?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is that marines shouldn't EVER have that kind of sight, for all the reasons I've already stated. Sure, they COULD add it in like that and it'd be better than having it "free", but it still defeats the purpose.
I would suggest turning the 'always-on' vision into a something more akin to a scan-like ability (one press to scan), a sonic ability akin to echolocation used by bats and dolphins. It would last as long as the sounds is created, and would fade slowly over a few seconds. It could also have a small energy cost or a separate cool-down timer.
In regards to visuals, rather than solid colour (ala 'Predator') vision, they should be detecting the outlines of objects and their vibrations.
The trade-off would then be the Kharaa would emit a sound which would give away their position to marines.
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On a second note, in regards to marines having something akin to Kharaa vision, I believe they require to see other marines in their HUD as easily as structures.
Thus, marines HUD should show them the status of fellow teammates, and things such as when a marine in the next room is calling for him to follow, or is taking damage.
If there has to be a tradeoff, that is. This implies balancing the game around darkness levels and we all know how that works out, right?