What to do and not do as a Marine Commander (b203)
Tyrsis
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8804Members
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8804Members
Since there are a lot of threads about what you should be doing as a marine commander, I'd like to take a bit of time to say what you shouldn't do. Being alien commander is way too simple right now, but a marine commander can really screw up the marines if done in a certain way, which I'm seeing very often right now.
First off let me preface by saying I'm just a pub player, but I've played quite a bit now. I am definitely not awesome, but I've seen enough to know what does win and what doesn't.
Some things not to say or do as a marine commander:
<b>"Just Hold These 3 or 4 Nodes" - Turtling</b>
This is absolutely the worst thing you can say and do. The only real way to win as marines is to pressure constantly. Allowing the aliens to group and attack areas is how they win, keeping them running all over the place to protect nodes or attack areas alone is how you stop them. If you have guys just sitting in an area trying to hold a node or turtling an unbuilt hive, it'll eventually get overrun. The only real way that area control works for marines is when the skill level is just way too lopsided in their favour, which in pubs rarely happens as at least 1 or 2 people who are very good at aliens always go aliens right now due to imbalance. (People don't like losing, so they chose the easier team)
Tell people to go out and get nodes, but never stop at just 3 or 4. Always have them moving and attacking the next point.
<b>"Everybody Group Up"</b>
This is often said too much without being specific. When playing aliens I love when there is a group of 6 marines building a node, because there is one important thing to note: marines can't shoot through each other. When you have a group of guys all huddled together, they end up blocking each other's fire. I can usually ceiling drop onto a group of them and take out 2 or 3 before they are able to hit me. Do this with 2 skulks and that's 6 marines respawning and usually 2 nodes down in the area. The best is to group in 3s, and have them spaced apart. TELL THEM THIS so they remember. This obviously does not apply when you're rushing a hive. But I've heard this group up garbage when all we're doing is going after nodes. This is a bad time to group up in more than 2 or 3 people.
<b>"Stop Dying!"</b>
This is obvious. Most marines don't go out there to die. If guys are dying too quickly, start watching front line guys, if you see a skulk approaching them, shield them and help them out with meds. They usually only die due to missing 1 or 2 bullets. A shield and health usually changes a dead marine to a marine that takes out 2 sometimes 3 skulks. Yes it's micromanagement, and yes it's your job as a comm to do it. As players are getting good with skulks (ceiling walking, wall bouncing, etc) it is getting hard, even as a good player, to kill a skulk before it reaches you. A shield makes the initial contact in the marines favour.
<b>"Stop Going Out Alone!" - "Why are you in XXX alone?"</b>
This is not the fault of the player, this is the fault of a commander who's not commanding. Tell people what to do and who to do it with. If you do not, expect them to do something else. 95% of the players will follow you, and those that don't, just let them do their thing. One marine off annoying aliens won't hurt your team. If I'm playing and a comm doesn't say what to do, I will just go out and kill alien nodes, as that's the most useful thing to do. If you don't want me doing that, tell me where you need me. Most players as they get a bit better can understand the map and what's going on, and will try to do something useful. If that goes against what you're trying to do, tell them what to do. Don't blame them for taking initiative.
<b>Not Recycling</b>
Our base is under attack! When you you hear that audio queue and see the tool tip about a structure being under attack, click it. If the area has no marines around, recycle what is dying. Recycling happens quickly, especially on nodes. You can recycle a node before even 2 aliens can chomp it dead. You get back 70% of your res plus the amount it's gained while alive, which usually nets you more than what you spent. Do not let it die without recycling. If anything this should really improve your game as a commander if you learn to recycle effectively. Just send more marines back to the lost node area, and rebuild and resume operations. Letting a node die is such a waste of resources and time. You can also cancel a recycle if marines manage to control the situation. It's better to recycle and cancel, then it is to recycle too late and let it die. If you didn't notice the node dying and it's half dead, shield it before recycling.
Some things that work right now:
<b>ARC rushing</b>
This has been the most effective strategy I've seen when the teams are relatively even skill wise.
Besides nodes, every bit of resource should go into ARCs early on, and they need to be MOVING before the 2nd hive is done. This stops lerk bile spamming of the ARCs. I've timed 3 ARCs built from start, and it's around 5 minutes, which is around the time the 2nd hive is usually going. Beacon everyone, and tell them to follow the ARCs. Leave someone at base to watch it over. Kill a hive, secure the area. CONTINUE TO BUILD ARCS. Once the first arcs are moving, build more, and keep them building always. Even if they all die, always have ARCs moving somewhere on the map. It keeps the aliens scrambling and off your nodes. Nothing stops node munchers more than seeing ARCs on their maps. It can be very exhausting though so be warned. Taking out the first hive is just the beginning. Rushing the main hive is usually much harder, and requires a lot more management. Watching ARCs, taking areas, building, watching marines and commanding all at the same time is usually very overwhelming, and why I don't really see it often in newer commanders.
Also don't be scared to lose ARCs! They are cheap, though they take awhile to build (alleviated by multiple factories, so build more if you have a lot of nodes!). Keep them moving, and get people to defend, but always have them attacking something. Don't just let them sit there doing nothing. They are an offensive tool, and any time not used moving them or shooting them is wasted.
<b>Marine rushing</b>
If you're starting to get overrun, or see the start of a 2nd hive, and you don't have ARCs. (You decided on tech), then beacon and rush that 2nd hive. This is usually game ending though if you don't take down the hive, but dropping the 2nd hive usually evens things out a bit for a longer game, as that initial hive investment can waste 4 or 5 minutes of the alien comms time to get a 3rd one after the loss of the 2nd. If you fail the first time, do it again. Though if you fail twice, I don't think there is much hope left. Just remind everyone to shoot the hive. 10 to 11 clips should take out the hive I believe, so if you have 5-6 guys all shooting the hive, it should be down in 2 clips each.
Tips:
<b>Constant Harassing</b>
Have marines always attacking the aliens, even if they die more often than not. Forcing 3 or 4 aliens to defend keeps them off nodes, which nets you more resources. Have them rush into a hive and kill shells / shades. Have players attacking alien nodes all the time. That annoys the hell out of aliens and costs them a lot of resources to replace.
<b>Support Your Troops</b>
Meds, ammo, nano shields. These are all tools that can put a fire fight in the marine's advantage. Most commanders are reactive with these tools, but a good commander is proactive. They see skulks approaching their marines and will shield and drop health before and during the battle. Try to remember you have these tools available and use them as much as possible.
<b>Onos Trapping</b>
Onos can usually be game enders, but if you have one alone without a gorge and it's attacking an area you control, get everyone to focus on it, and trap it with armories. People call it cheap, but dropping Onos early and keeping them out of the game is key so use whatever tool available.
<b>Armories! Armories everywhere!</b>
Armories are cheap, and make marines much more durable without having to micromanage them. Put them in hives you hold and areas you are attacking from, and recycle if the area is lost. If they are being chomped on, recycling is already too late, so be mindful to recycle them before that happens.
<b>Multiple Observatories</b>
Build multiple obs in longer games, especially when you have ARCs. Nothing ruins an ARC train more than being out of scan energy. Having multiple obs removes that, and also lets you see more of the map if you have them scattered around. They relatively cheap to make as well.
<b>TL;DR</b>
Always pressure the aliens: kill nodes, shells and shades. DO NOT TURTLE. ARCs: use them early and use them often.
First off let me preface by saying I'm just a pub player, but I've played quite a bit now. I am definitely not awesome, but I've seen enough to know what does win and what doesn't.
Some things not to say or do as a marine commander:
<b>"Just Hold These 3 or 4 Nodes" - Turtling</b>
This is absolutely the worst thing you can say and do. The only real way to win as marines is to pressure constantly. Allowing the aliens to group and attack areas is how they win, keeping them running all over the place to protect nodes or attack areas alone is how you stop them. If you have guys just sitting in an area trying to hold a node or turtling an unbuilt hive, it'll eventually get overrun. The only real way that area control works for marines is when the skill level is just way too lopsided in their favour, which in pubs rarely happens as at least 1 or 2 people who are very good at aliens always go aliens right now due to imbalance. (People don't like losing, so they chose the easier team)
Tell people to go out and get nodes, but never stop at just 3 or 4. Always have them moving and attacking the next point.
<b>"Everybody Group Up"</b>
This is often said too much without being specific. When playing aliens I love when there is a group of 6 marines building a node, because there is one important thing to note: marines can't shoot through each other. When you have a group of guys all huddled together, they end up blocking each other's fire. I can usually ceiling drop onto a group of them and take out 2 or 3 before they are able to hit me. Do this with 2 skulks and that's 6 marines respawning and usually 2 nodes down in the area. The best is to group in 3s, and have them spaced apart. TELL THEM THIS so they remember. This obviously does not apply when you're rushing a hive. But I've heard this group up garbage when all we're doing is going after nodes. This is a bad time to group up in more than 2 or 3 people.
<b>"Stop Dying!"</b>
This is obvious. Most marines don't go out there to die. If guys are dying too quickly, start watching front line guys, if you see a skulk approaching them, shield them and help them out with meds. They usually only die due to missing 1 or 2 bullets. A shield and health usually changes a dead marine to a marine that takes out 2 sometimes 3 skulks. Yes it's micromanagement, and yes it's your job as a comm to do it. As players are getting good with skulks (ceiling walking, wall bouncing, etc) it is getting hard, even as a good player, to kill a skulk before it reaches you. A shield makes the initial contact in the marines favour.
<b>"Stop Going Out Alone!" - "Why are you in XXX alone?"</b>
This is not the fault of the player, this is the fault of a commander who's not commanding. Tell people what to do and who to do it with. If you do not, expect them to do something else. 95% of the players will follow you, and those that don't, just let them do their thing. One marine off annoying aliens won't hurt your team. If I'm playing and a comm doesn't say what to do, I will just go out and kill alien nodes, as that's the most useful thing to do. If you don't want me doing that, tell me where you need me. Most players as they get a bit better can understand the map and what's going on, and will try to do something useful. If that goes against what you're trying to do, tell them what to do. Don't blame them for taking initiative.
<b>Not Recycling</b>
Our base is under attack! When you you hear that audio queue and see the tool tip about a structure being under attack, click it. If the area has no marines around, recycle what is dying. Recycling happens quickly, especially on nodes. You can recycle a node before even 2 aliens can chomp it dead. You get back 70% of your res plus the amount it's gained while alive, which usually nets you more than what you spent. Do not let it die without recycling. If anything this should really improve your game as a commander if you learn to recycle effectively. Just send more marines back to the lost node area, and rebuild and resume operations. Letting a node die is such a waste of resources and time. You can also cancel a recycle if marines manage to control the situation. It's better to recycle and cancel, then it is to recycle too late and let it die. If you didn't notice the node dying and it's half dead, shield it before recycling.
Some things that work right now:
<b>ARC rushing</b>
This has been the most effective strategy I've seen when the teams are relatively even skill wise.
Besides nodes, every bit of resource should go into ARCs early on, and they need to be MOVING before the 2nd hive is done. This stops lerk bile spamming of the ARCs. I've timed 3 ARCs built from start, and it's around 5 minutes, which is around the time the 2nd hive is usually going. Beacon everyone, and tell them to follow the ARCs. Leave someone at base to watch it over. Kill a hive, secure the area. CONTINUE TO BUILD ARCS. Once the first arcs are moving, build more, and keep them building always. Even if they all die, always have ARCs moving somewhere on the map. It keeps the aliens scrambling and off your nodes. Nothing stops node munchers more than seeing ARCs on their maps. It can be very exhausting though so be warned. Taking out the first hive is just the beginning. Rushing the main hive is usually much harder, and requires a lot more management. Watching ARCs, taking areas, building, watching marines and commanding all at the same time is usually very overwhelming, and why I don't really see it often in newer commanders.
Also don't be scared to lose ARCs! They are cheap, though they take awhile to build (alleviated by multiple factories, so build more if you have a lot of nodes!). Keep them moving, and get people to defend, but always have them attacking something. Don't just let them sit there doing nothing. They are an offensive tool, and any time not used moving them or shooting them is wasted.
<b>Marine rushing</b>
If you're starting to get overrun, or see the start of a 2nd hive, and you don't have ARCs. (You decided on tech), then beacon and rush that 2nd hive. This is usually game ending though if you don't take down the hive, but dropping the 2nd hive usually evens things out a bit for a longer game, as that initial hive investment can waste 4 or 5 minutes of the alien comms time to get a 3rd one after the loss of the 2nd. If you fail the first time, do it again. Though if you fail twice, I don't think there is much hope left. Just remind everyone to shoot the hive. 10 to 11 clips should take out the hive I believe, so if you have 5-6 guys all shooting the hive, it should be down in 2 clips each.
Tips:
<b>Constant Harassing</b>
Have marines always attacking the aliens, even if they die more often than not. Forcing 3 or 4 aliens to defend keeps them off nodes, which nets you more resources. Have them rush into a hive and kill shells / shades. Have players attacking alien nodes all the time. That annoys the hell out of aliens and costs them a lot of resources to replace.
<b>Support Your Troops</b>
Meds, ammo, nano shields. These are all tools that can put a fire fight in the marine's advantage. Most commanders are reactive with these tools, but a good commander is proactive. They see skulks approaching their marines and will shield and drop health before and during the battle. Try to remember you have these tools available and use them as much as possible.
<b>Onos Trapping</b>
Onos can usually be game enders, but if you have one alone without a gorge and it's attacking an area you control, get everyone to focus on it, and trap it with armories. People call it cheap, but dropping Onos early and keeping them out of the game is key so use whatever tool available.
<b>Armories! Armories everywhere!</b>
Armories are cheap, and make marines much more durable without having to micromanage them. Put them in hives you hold and areas you are attacking from, and recycle if the area is lost. If they are being chomped on, recycling is already too late, so be mindful to recycle them before that happens.
<b>Multiple Observatories</b>
Build multiple obs in longer games, especially when you have ARCs. Nothing ruins an ARC train more than being out of scan energy. Having multiple obs removes that, and also lets you see more of the map if you have them scattered around. They relatively cheap to make as well.
<b>TL;DR</b>
Always pressure the aliens: kill nodes, shells and shades. DO NOT TURTLE. ARCs: use them early and use them often.
Comments
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Just Hold These 3 or 4 Nodes" - Turtling<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, this is a perfectly viable strategy if you intend on turret farming. Today I had a game on mineshaft where marines lost everything but their spawn, and we slowly just kept turtling upto the point where we had jetpacks, retook drilling and then ninja'd a hive in Cave. We slowly regained all map control and beat the crap out of aliens from then on. There is NOTHING aliens can do against turret spam currently, so it is a viable, albeit cheesy, strategy.
In general though I agree, when you have a group of competent marines and pressure works, you SHOULD keep up the pressure. But when you have a group of marines that aren't all Grissi's then you're better off not throwing away your map control by overly applying pressure
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Stop Going Out Alone!" - "Why are you in XXX alone?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this as well, I usually tell my players what to do, without always dropping down the waypoints, and while fortunately often I get players who listen and are really willing to work as a team, other times I just get a bunch of lone riders that completely disregard my orders. (I.e if I beacon and tell everyone to phase or hit X then there's sometimes still one or two guys who piss off and do something else)
Agree with everything else you've written down, good write-up for sure. I'd like to add another tip:
Forward CCs! Having the ability to distress to any CC on the map is HUGE and can literally be a game changer. So if you have some spare res, don't hesitate to build a CC at your forward bases (these are usually on hive sites anyway)
To be fair, this is a perfectly viable strategy if you intend on turret farming. Today I had a game on mineshaft where marines lost everything but their spawn, and we slowly just kept turtling upto the point where we had jetpacks, retook drilling and then ninja'd a hive in Cave. We slowly regained all map control and beat the crap out of aliens from then on. There is NOTHING aliens can do against turret spam currently, so it is a viable, albeit cheesy, strategy.
In general though I agree, when you have a group of competent marines and pressure works, you SHOULD keep up the pressure. But when you have a group of marines that aren't all Grissi's then you're better off not throwing away your map control by overly applying pressure<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, this may work for you, but is the absolutely most frustrating strategy I've seen used by marines. Also if you are trapped in your base with a turret farm, it's basically over unless the aliens all crash. Get in 3 lerks with bile and say bye to your turrets almost instantly. I've seen this work maybe ONCE and it was just pure fluke because aliens just refused to lerk bile. People are catching on though at how important lerks are, so this happens very rarely now.
It's often not so much turrets as marines who can sit next to an armory and spam grenades at the doorways indefinitely. That is very difficult to get through.
<b>"Everybody Group Up"</b>
<b>Not Recycling</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I take issue with these three statements, because I think there are definitely situations where they are valid.
'3-4 res nodes'
As long as you can keep those 3-4 res nodes alive, that's really all you need to tech up. After I get about 3 nodes, I want my marines to focus on killing alien harvesters rather than trying to get up more extractors.
'Everybody group up'
You don't want everyone to group up to build an extractor, obviously, but you do want them to group up for
- Relocating your base (think crossroads on summit or crushing machine on mineshaft)
- When pushing to attack a hive
'Not Recycling'
Personally, I generally don't recycle because the benefit of doing so (res back) doesn't outweigh the cost (frees up the alien to attack other stuff). Currently, you only get 75% of the health of the structure when it finishes the recycle back, so for an extractor (the most common thing you'd want to recycle) that's 8TRes if fully built and at full health or 2TRes if unbuilt and at initial health (rounding up). However, you almost only recycle if an extractor is under attack and unlikely to survive, such that you'll never get the full 8TRes, but something less (lets say the attackers get it down to 50% by the time the recycle finishes, then you'd only get about 5TRes back). If you nanoshield + recycle, then you might be able to get 6-7TRes back.
Now, 5-7TRes is not a bad return for a lost extractor, however, you have to weigh that against the cost of freeing up the attacking alien to do other things. It takes a skulk roughly 15s to kill a just-dropped, unbuilt extractor and 33s to kill a fully-built one, while it takes 12s to recycle, which means that recycling will realistically free up that skulk somewhere between 3-21s earlier then if you had not recycled.
So the question becomes, is it worth 5-7TRes to keep a skulk tied up for an extra 21s? More often than not, I say yes. Especially when I'm making a push to kill a hive, being up 1-2 players for roughly 20s because some skulks were chomping on a random extractor can be the difference between a dead or alive hive.
Marines will often do this. This is why it is so important to call them by name when possible. It really gets the players attention, I also try to remain friendly. I used to get frustrated but now I just say please and thank you and tell them how wonderful they are (as long as they are attempting what I ask irregardless of outcome). If they just ignore everything I say I just jump out and shoot stuff because marine comm is stressful and unfun like that and I owe them nothing if they won't work with me. No fuss no muss.
'3-4 res nodes'
As long as you can keep those 3-4 res nodes alive, that's really all you need to tech up. After I get about 3 nodes, I want my marines to focus on killing alien harvesters rather than trying to get up more extractors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, you basically just repeated what I said. I was talking about "holding 3 or 4" and not pressuring or attacking aliens. You basically repeated this except instead of replacing alien extractors with your own, you just want them to attack. I think we agree on this really.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->'Everybody group up'
You don't want everyone to group up to build an extractor, obviously, but you do want them to group up for
- Relocating your base (think crossroads on summit or crushing machine on mineshaft)
- When pushing to attack a hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, we agree. I added this because there have been multiple games now where I've heard commanders get all pissed off that people weren't in these huge groups, and it was just stupid. The comms were spending more time chastising his team then trying to figure out a different method of expanding.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->'Not Recycling'
Personally, I generally don't recycle because the benefit of doing so (res back) doesn't outweigh the cost (frees up the alien to attack other stuff). Currently, you only get 75% of the health of the structure when it finishes the recycle back, so for an extractor (the most common thing you'd want to recycle) that's 8TRes if fully built and at full health or 2TRes if unbuilt and at initial health (rounding up). However, you almost only recycle if an extractor is under attack and unlikely to survive, such that you'll never get the full 8TRes, but something less (lets say the attackers get it down to 50% by the time the recycle finishes, then you'd only get about 5TRes back). If you nanoshield + recycle, then you might be able to get 6-7TRes back.
Now, 5-7TRes is not a bad return for a lost extractor, however, you have to weigh that against the cost of freeing up the attacking alien to do other things. It takes a skulk roughly 15s to kill a just-dropped, unbuilt extractor and 33s to kill a fully-built one, while it takes 12s to recycle, which means that recycling will realistically free up that skulk somewhere between 3-21s earlier then if you had not recycled.
So the question becomes, is it worth 5-7TRes to keep a skulk tied up for an extra 21s? More often than not, I say yes. Especially when I'm making a push to kill a hive, being up 1-2 players for roughly 20s because some skulks were chomping on a random extractor can be the difference between a dead or alive hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think 5-7 TRes is worth 21 seconds of a skulks time? Yikes. I still think it's a complete waste of resources not to recycle, and just sort of points out that a commander is not paying attention. If I see things being recycled by a marine comm as an alien, I usually know that he's on top of things, and to expect a bit more strategy than the regular "tech up and hope we have enough skill to beat the aliens" strategy that I constantly see lose. Also, this goes out the door if you wait 15 seconds before starting the recycle to pull in the extra res before it goes, and also killing it 5 seconds before the skulk takes it out.
KILL ALIEN RESOURCE TOWERS.
They are called "RESOURCE towers" because they give the other team RESOURCES.
End thread.
<u>KILL</u> ALIEN RESOURCE TOWERS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you want the comm to move individual arcs around the map taking out RTs? why not just leave the marines to do it like they should be anyway?