Charts&values involving balance-related variables

Laosh'Ra

apparently no balance changes in b204, but i felt like updating anyway.
as for the flamer, these lines are in the code:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kFlamethrowerDamage = 10
kFlamethrowerDamageType = kDamageType.Flame
kFlamethrowerFireDelay = 0.5
kFlamethrowerClipSize = 15

kBurnDamagePerStackPerSecond = 2
kFlamethrowerMaxStacks = 20
kFlamethrowerBurnDuration = 6
kFlamethrowerStackRate = 0.4
kFlameRadius = 1.8
kFlameDamageStackWeight = 0.5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
so unless someone knows a decent, averaged way to calculate this, i'll have to keep it on "varies". that should be better than confusing the hell out of people...

rifle ROF is actually 0.0555 instead of 0.05 (according to the wiki at least).

further work on damage types, you can read it in the changelog.
"bilogical" and "door" are still missing as exceptions.

edit: overlooked an issue for StructuresOnly, fixed now.

Corpsey

DPS = 2[(10*#ofShotsLanded) + (S*N)]
Seconds = #ofShotsMade/2

Where S is Stacks damage, N is number of stacks (which I just use the number of shots landed value for now). They are multiplied by 2 because the damage is per second and the shots are every 0.5 (I think anyways). If you want damage per shot you can just divide by 2 or eliminate the outside multiplier. I'm not sure about that stack rate either..

Although if stacks damage per second is 2 and it's being applied every 0.5.. is the DPS actually 1? Because the values name does say damage per second @_@. At any rate.. 1 damage doesn't make all to much difference, the big thing seems to be hitting things consecutively.. but yeah I know you're trying to get the factual damage.. good luck.

Laosh'Ra

well, i guess there is no way to put a small text/value in the chart which could represent everything going on with the flamer... so "varies" it is.

i changed the "attacks" chart for more overview (the text above each value is the name of the target). it is now much bigger and more ugly, but i still think this makes the chart much more useable.
i might split up the chart horizontally, so people don't have to scroll all the time... this would make the post even bigger though, creating even more boxes. maybe i should also add artifical weapon-name lines, but this could really confuse people...

added exceptions for shotgun and onos' hidearmor.

edit: forgot to apply hidearmor for the OnosCarapace version, fixed now.

Laosh'Ra

added "Seconds of continuous fire without reload" which is (#attacks-1)*firedelay. -1 is because the first shot is "free".

i split up the first post (forum-limit was reached).

Laosh'Ra

changed "Attacks until Death/Destruction" chart again, adding reference lines for the weapon-type every few lines.
no matter where you scroll in the chart, you should always have the weapon and the target type on your screen now.
(all lines displaying the weapon-type are identical, they are just added for overview)

i am now finally happy with the way that chart is organized, days of endless scrolling are over.

Dghelneshi

You've made a mistake when implementing StructuresOnly.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->    // structural rules
    kDamageTypeRules[kDamageType.Structural] = {}
    table.insert(kDamageTypeRules[kDamageType.Structural], IgnoreDoors)
    table.insert(kDamageTypeRules[kDamageType.Structural], MultiplyForStructures)

    // structures only rules
    kDamageTypeRules[kDamageType.StructuresOnly] = {}
    table.insert(kDamageTypeRules[kDamageType.StructuresOnly], IgnoreDoors)
    table.insert(kDamageTypeRules[kDamageType.StructuresOnly], DamageStructuresOnly)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
So, StructuresOnly does not multiply damage for structures. That's why ARC damage is off, for example. Also, you might need to measure and hardcode ARC shot length time. It's somewhere between 7 and 8 seconds.

Laosh'Ra

thanks for pointing out the structuresonly-issue.

as for the ARC, wiki says 3 seconds as well. but you are right, i've never seen any ARC fire THAT fast. i've created a seperate topic, maybe someone can shed some light on this...

Laosh'Ra

finally included the weapon-upgrades, had to split up the chart due to forum limits. the first part contains all player-controlled units.
(if you need the CSV values, please tell me... i am out of reserved posts!)

i asked Flyra during a stream, he said ARC firedelay "should be 10" so i'll stick with that.

the ShotgunMax was getting quite annoying so i got rid of Min and Max and just replaced it with Shotgun.
this simply means all values now represent attacks at close range (damage per shotgun bullet is apparently lower when you are further away).

Dghelneshi

I can't find any values for the normal Whip attack. Will have to sift through the lua files for this... We also still need the fire delay for Bombard.

Recently measured values for ARC attack point indeed to 10 seconds.

Whip.kROF = 2.0
Whip.kDamage = 50

Laosh'Ra

b205 added :)
had to adjust the chart-size to fit it into the forum limits (lots of "mature" variables now) but everything else worked right away.
i did not check the content yet (and won't do it anymore today) so there might still be some bugs. but everything looks fine to me.
did not update the changelog yet either.

Laosh'Ra

timezone strikes again... sorry for the late update, but here are the values for b206.

PsiWarp

I must express my appreciation for your work, Laosh'Ra! Your charts make it very easy to keep up-to-date with the new builds, and are especially helpful for the Wiki. Keep up the good work :D

Laosh'Ra

thanks for the feedback, it's great to see that someone is actually putting the data to some use :)

added several "Time" categories and an "Other Times or Intervals" so everything related to this subject should appear in one of those charts now, instead of being hidden somewhere in the "Misc" chart.

interesting find:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->// alien spawn
kMinimumAlienQueueTime = 3
(...)
// "ragdoll time" is about 3 seconds, so you wait maximum of 16 seconds to spawn back in (worst case kMinimumAlienQueueTime + kAlienWaveSpawnInterval)
kAlienWaveSpawnInterval = 22<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->.
i don't understand how this translates to 20 seconds as mentioned in the changelog, but the worst case scenario makes sense to me: if you die 2.9 seconds before the next wave, the 3 seconds rag-doll-time will put you 0.1 after the wave spawn.

Skie

Very cool stats.

Weapon firing and attack speeds are hidden away in each models' animation graph files. You can view each (one at a time) by opening the corresponding 1st person model in the Viewer tool and then checking that model's Animation Graph from the top row's dropdown menus. It's quite confusing, and animations are pretty buggy - pretty much each marine weapon can get jammed if two different animations start playing at the exact same frame (or something similar), like pulling out the weapon and jumping at the same time. Or trying to reload while getting up from onos' stomp. etc.

Laosh'Ra

added clip duration, an energy-chart and a score-chart (see changelog for details).

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Weapon firing and attack speeds are hidden away in each models' animation graph files.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
many FireDelay values can be found in the balance files, are all of those obsolete?

well, i tried what you explained but the tool is a bit too confusing for me. lets say i want to watch/measure the rifle reload animation.
i found the animation graph for the rifle, and i see "activity == reload". it has blend time and blend time (label) each being 0,200000 and there is speed which is 1,150000.
is the speed a scalar for the animation? i still cant play/measure the animation itself though...

Laosh'Ra

added b207, but i did not take care of the whip and door damage types yet, puncture is fixed though. i'll take a closer look tomorrow.

bile bomb splash radius has been lowered from 8 to 4
fades need 2/3/3/4 hits

ogz

from teh chart

lerk has higher dps than marines. . so theoretically they should be winning 1v1 fights anyway regardless of movement

Laosh'Ra

if you magically manage to hit with every single spike, yes.
lerk spike has a huge stray and the damage is lowered depending on your distance to the target too.

Laosh'Ra

sorry for the late update, i was a bit inactive due to two minor surgeries.

i've been taking care of the whip bombard and its new damage type.
the door-damage-type is also up-to-date-now: as i understand it, it is heavy+structural (deals double damage to buildings and additionally drains armor on the target twice as fast than normal-type) which can also target doors. apparently it's taking 8 smashes to destroy a door, but remember they might still tweak this value!
finally, i also added "imune" messages for the onos' primary attacks, as it switches between gore and smash depending on the target.

OnosFactory

....'two minor surgeries.'...

Good health to you and yours, please keep up the good work!

Laosh'Ra

thanks.

well, here's b208. they removed several FireDelay values from the code. afaik those values are taken from the animations so maybe the remaining ones are invalid because they are obsolete (exceptions: ARC and Rifle which i added manually). now i REALLY need some help to figure out these values from the animations...

there is no official changelog yet, so i'll try to investigate a bit on what has changed... something which caught my eye (because its at the very end of the text) is that the bile bomb splash radius is now 6 instead of 4.

Laosh'Ra

alright, here is an <b>unofficial</b> changelog for b208 (probably not covering all changes):
<ul><li>new main menu (no awesome features yet, but afaik they can work on those now).</li><li>performance has changed, i guess it is difficult to say anything else about this as it depends on the computer.</li><li>hallucinations are now implemented: they have 20% health and no armor, with a maximum health of 600.</li><li>apparently, poison dart for the lerk is now implemented too (not sure how the mechanics work, i think it's damage over time somehow).</li><li>armory now has energy (100 initial, 150 max).</li><li>ammo and medpacks are now based on energy.</li><li>celerity values have been changed but i'm not sure if it's implemented yet.</li><li>as for the code: they did some cleanup on the balance files, some obsolete things such as drifter flare and fury are gone, same goes for some duplicate (but identical) entries.</li><li>apparently, shotgun has been changed somehow. i could not find any difference for BulletsPerShot, MinDamageRange, MaxDamageRange or SpreadDegrees though.</li><li>welder might have been changed, not sure though.</li></ul>

<b>balance:</b>
<ul><li>bile bomb damage: from 35 to 55, radius from 4 to 6</li><li>healspray damage: from 13 to 8</li><li>healspray energy cost: from 15 to 10</li><li>build time per healspray from 1.5 to 0.7</li><li>energy cost for structure (hydra i guess): from 40 to 25</li><li>energy cost for clog: from 30 to 25</li><li>energy cost for cyst: from 60 to 25</li><li>hive maximum energy from 200 to 250</li><li>rescost for ammo and medpacks from 1 to 2 (not sure if this is actually used, it's based on Command Center energy now)</li><li>research time for UpgradeHive from 20 to 15 seconds</li><li>research time for Augmentation from 30 to 45 seconds</li><li>initial drifters from 3 to 0</li><li>HiveCystParentRange and CystParentRange from 20 to 15 (so i guess you need to place new cysts closer to the hive / other cysts), MiniCystParentRange remains on 15</li><li>GorgeCreateDistance from 9 to 6.5</li></ul>
<b>maturation times</b> have changed:
b207->b208 (in seconds):
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Hive      : 600->360
Harvester : 600->240
Whip      : 600->150
Crag      : 350->200
Shift     : 300->200
Shade     : 300->200
Veil      : 100->120
Spur      : 100->120
Shell     : 100->120
Cyst      :  90 (not changed)
Hydra     : 120->100
Egg       : 180->100<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->

gestate (evolve) times are unchanged.
i did not find any differences in health or armor of marines, lifeforms or structures (doesn't mean i did not overlook something)
apparently no differences in research-cost either.

i found something about <b>celerity</b> though:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->CelerityStart                          :                  1
CelerityBuildUpDuration                :                  2
CeleritySpeedModifier                  :                0.3
SkulkCeleritySpeedModifier             :                0.3
GorgeCeleritySpeedModifier             :                0.3
LerkCeleritySpeedModifier              :                0.3
FadeCeleritySpeedModifier              :                0.3
OnosCeleritySpeedModifier              :                0.3<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
not sure how it exactly works, but i guess you build up speed over time (to make it less drastic in combat). maybe the maximum is 130% speed?

<b>unknown:</b>
"WebStalkPerHive" was set from 1 to 2 so maybe they implemented something for the gorge?
EnergizeRange and EnergizeEnergyIncrease have been changed (10->15 and 0.2->0.25) and EnergizeDuration has been removed (was on 6 seconds).

edit: found some more changed in the misc-part. some edit for overview.

Laosh'Ra

edited the changelog some more...

here is some info Champlo0 has posted:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Hallucinate is in. It's pointless to use cause even Onos hallucinations die in like one spray of bullets so you may as well only use skulks.

- Hive sight is gone. You can't even see marines attacking structures anymore.

- Cysts cost 2 energy

- Drifters cost 20 energy

- Jetpack is more efficient

- Gorges have no mini-cysts

- Infestation spread on everything (up to ceilings and everything)

- Hive seems to mature faster

- Armories seem to be weaker

- You give medkits and ammo from armory energy. Build 2 armories and have infinite med kits essentially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i have to object here at one point: armories and advanced armories have the same health and armor values as in b207. i cannot judge the other points as i have not played the game yet myself. time to do that :)

edit:
-mini-cyst is gone for gorge
-not sure about mist mechanics, but the catalyze visual effect is back
-hydras can be build without infestation too, but they will not grow automatically then. using healspray will still allow them to grow though.
-mines and hydras have green and red preview-models (shaders?) to show you where you can place them (instead of showing no model when you are not allowed to place it, you will now see a red preview)
-some person claimed a cyst costs 5 energy, not 2 as ChamploO said... not sure which is true, but 2 energy would be very cheap imo
-contradicting information states that ammo&medpacks drain energy either from Command Centers or from Armories

Laosh'Ra

updated the charts for b209. no changelog-edit in the first post yet (i wanna play now!) but i created an inofficial changelog here:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118737" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=118737</a>

Laosh'Ra

updated charts to b210.

Laosh'Ra

changes i found in b210 (keep in mind this information is incomplete and possibly invalid):

<b>-new map: docking</b>
-shotgun base damage lowered 200->170 (i don't know if they changed the spread or did some other tweaks to it)
-flamethrower base damage lowered 10->7.5, clipsize increased 15->30
-spikedamage lowered 20-24 -> 14-18, now deals puncture damage instead of normal damage (more effective against players i.e. marines)
-changes to a LOT (or all) energy cost values (tweet says they <b>removed energy</b>)
-extractor health/armor 4400/550->4000/500
-infantry portal cost 10->15
-arms lab cost 20->25
-prototype lab cost 30->40
-ARC cost 15->20
-observatory cost 10->15
-shell, crag, babblers, spur, shift, echo, veil, shade, hallucinations, whip, bombard cost 10->15
-rupture cost 5->2
-healing bed, mucous membrane, bacterial receptors cost 15->20
-upgrade hive cost 10->20
-research cost mine 10->15
-research cost shotgun, grenade launcher 15->20; flamer 20->25
-alien evolution costs (carapace etc.) 10->15
-leap cost 20->25
-blink, stomp cost 20->30
-<b>alien tier 3</b> techs cost 40 each <b>(probably available now)</b>
-upgrading to advanced armory 60->90 seconds
<b>-resource interval from 8 to 5 seconds</b> (meaning 60% faster resource gain!)
i also found this:
RTsPerTechpoint : 3
since the progress log said something about an economical motivation to capture more tech points, i guess one can only have up to 3 extractors/harvesters per command station/hive. this is speculation though.

GORGEous

Shotgun is now normal damage. And I think it's back to 20 degree spread (b208 used to be 20, b209 was 30?).

Laosh'Ra

you are right about the normal-type. there is a bug in my script, it will be listed as light-type there. i think the reason is the special case of min and max damage. i'll try to fix this sometime.

Laosh'Ra

updated charts to b211/b212 two-in-one-patch.

edit: OFFICIAL CHANGELOG: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/6/ns2_build_211_212_changelog" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012...1_212_changelog</a>


they have the official patchlog ready but as i just noticed the servers are not running it yet so people might want something to read in the meantime...

please keep in mind that it is inofficial and probably not complete while also having a chance of error.

carapace now slows you down, the armor gain is dramatically increased though.
SkulkCarapaceSpeedReduction : 0.08 (armor from 20->50)
GorgeCarapaceSpeedReduction : 0.08 (50->150)
LerkCarapaceSpeedReduction : 0.15 (30->100)
FadeCarapaceSpeedReduction : 0.15 (30->80)
OnosCarapaceSpeedReduction : 0.25 (150->600)
(probably means an onos with carapace will be 25% slower).

some cooldowns were added:
NanoShieldCooldown : 6
EMPCooldown : 8
CystCooldown : .333
InfestationSpikeCooldown : 5

ressource interval from 5 to 6 (meaning 20% slower resgain), starting pres from 25->20
grenades now last 2 seconds instead of 1.5 until they detonate (i guess hitting a target is still instant-detonation)
MAC armor from 50 to 150, maybe EMP is now avilable
healspray damagetype from light to biological
ARC damagetype from StructuresOnly to Splash

things that are apparently also changed somehow (not sure!):
stomp, spikes, poisondart, umbra (maybe available for lerk now?), alien spawning, enzyme, welding, possibly shotgun, Tech EMP, several alien costs (research but also other things, apparently 1 pres cost for an evolution now), several changes to sentry guns

here is a different inofficial changelog you might also want to read: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119198" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=119198</a>

GORGEous

Dang, I didn't see your last post before I submitted my topic.