aliens need some way to kill buildings again

Omega_K2 · March 2012

Now with onos stomp nerved, aliens can't kill buildings anymore. Endgame can not be won by aliens, there is NO way to combat turret farms AT ALL. Bile bomb does very little damage, onos dies instantly and takes too long and besides that there is no way to combat turret farms effectivly.

Really need some decent way to kill buildings again.

<a href="http://omegak2.net/screenshots/ns2/2012-04-01_00002.jpg" target="_blank">http://omegak2.net/screenshots/ns2/2012-04-01_00002.jpg</a>
<a href="http://omegak2.net/screenshots/ns2/2012-04-01_00003.jpg" target="_blank">http://omegak2.net/screenshots/ns2/2012-04-01_00003.jpg</a>

Also, marines have the avantage of very cheap very powerful structure killers: ARCS, by investing a few res, they can kill buildings worths hundred of RES and PRES insantly and they are also very hard to take down, since units do little damage to them.

Soap · March 2012

Lerk bilebomb can rip apart bases far too quickly as it is. Not to mention they can gas all of the IPs, melting most of the marine's health bars. You obviously haven't seen more than one lerk attack a marine base.

Omega_K2 · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soap @ Mar 31 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Lerk bilebomb can rip apart bases far too quickly as it is. Not to mention they can gas all of the IPs, melting most of the marine's health bars. You obviously haven't seen more than one lerk attack a marine base.</div>

In any late game situation they'll be ripped apart in seconds, that is what I see happening. How do you want to reach the ip, when you die before you can even get remotly close? I've seen marines winning several games now just by spammign turrets end game, even though aliens had 2/3 of the map and 3-4 hives up because you could not effectivly take the bases down anymore. Onos would die pretty fast and can't do much against the turrets, even before the update aliens already stuggeled with taking down turret farms sometimes (see countless mineshaft stalemates) and only succeded because of 3-5 onos CC or powernode rush, now it's completly impossible.

Balancing that you can kill stuff too fast in EARLY game is GOOD, but late game is now impossible for alien.

Price · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soap @ Mar 31 2012, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I can't understand everybody want nerf aliens.
You obviously haven't seen more than one lerk attack a marine base.</div>
WHAT?
One marine with grenade launcher can destroy the whole alien defence and structures, a lerk can't.
For example
Lerk bile bomb VS marine + grenade launcher and jetpack
lerk = cost 30 res
grenade launcher = 25 res
jetpack = 10 res
so its only 5 res more...

Also a Gl kill 1/2/3 lerks/skulks/gorges, a bilebomb don't kill any marine and did not much damage to a structure.
We just have to wait for heavy armor to balance marines against onos.
But nerfing aliens more...idk.
<b>In 202 its not easy to kill a marine structure that fast how a marine kill a alien structure.</b>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soap @ Mar 31 2012, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Lerk bilebomb can rip apart bases far too quickly as it is. Not to mention they can gas all of the IPs, melting most of the marine's health bars.</div>
A lerk die about ONE SINGLE shotgun hit...
Marines can kill alien structures faster...
The lerk bilebomb isn't that good it takes like over a minute to kill a powernode. (to trolls: i don't know EXACTLY how long it takes, but in this time i killed a powernode with bilebomb, i eat a sandvich and drink a glass of water...yes it takes that long!)
Today on summit i was lerk and want get sub back, so i fly under the stairs and bilebomb the powernode, i was hoping like *ok pg up, don't go through marines DON'T* after like 1 minute i killed the powernode.
After that i bilebomb the phasegate and shoot it with spikes...to bad 2 marines come and attacked me, rebuild the powernode in 4-6 seconds and everything was on, even the splash don't kill the phasegate and i hit pretty well.

Corpsey · March 2012

It's a team game.. the way you're describing the situation, it doesn't sound like the Onos asked for backup when entering a marine controlled area.. they need gorges nearby and the Onos needs to understand the priority in which building have to be taken down.. Going in alone is dumb, and I too have seen Onos die because they were too stupid to work together and instead went separate ways.. Like literally we had 2 Onos and one of them decided "no, I don't want to stay with that gorge and other Onos, I think I'm going to go off and do my own thing." and turned around and left the squad (20 metres from the location we needed to attack btw) we had going at a huge moment of opportunity.. I'm not sure what to do about this, technically the commander should chime in and say "no, stick together and take down that location" but... I mean how are you really going to stop people from being idiots? :P Perhaps consider playing competitively? I know I've been considering it the last couple builds after getting atrocious teammates.

Price · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Mar 31 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>It's a team game.. the way you're describing the situation, it doesn't sound like the Onos asked for backup when entering a marine controlled area..</div>
But if one single marine can destroy like 10 alien structures and a single lerk ( i test it twice today!) can't do much about marine structures its the balance not the situation...
Team game, of course, but the game (sadly!) have most of the time only 8 players.
So if one marine can do extreme much damage with one grenade launcher and a lerk can't with bilebomb, there is something imbalanced.

Yes a lerk can fly fast through the map, but the lerk need one hit, i will see you playing as lerk kill a marine with one hit, specialy if he get med spammed and maybe nanoshield. (both happend happend much today).
Its like a ant fight against a hedgehogs...
Because (with what ever reason) UWE decided do forbid aliens to regenerate in fights/if they get hit but marines get healed with medpack and get a -50% damage protection.
You should see the cusser people today, they are right, nanoshield is extreme.
I mean i had a lot of fun running around with nanoshield and riflebutt aliens, but is that the point?
Don't forget, there is not everything in, stuff is comming.

Xarius · March 2012

Actually, from experience I can tell turret spam is VERY effective currently, there is absolutely NO WAY aliens can win if the marines are turtling and turret spamming. I just had a game where aliens held the entire map on mineshaft but couldn't win the game because there were too many turrets at our spawn. The issue really is that aliens don't have a siege weapon like marines do, whips are supposed to fill that role but turrets and ARCs can just rip them to shreds. Even 3 - 4 onos will be stopped dead in their tracks by a marine team supported by a turret farm.

Of course when the situation that I just described occurs, you've technically lost anyway, you just haven't been annihilated. However I have also had games as a comm on tram where I just held Shipping + Repair room and effectively turtled my way to victory. (Aliens had 3 hives and the rest of the map, we had shipping, obs (off and on), logistics and repair room.

Lerks can't do anything against turret farms because turrets cover the air as well, if there's only a few of them you CAN deal some good damage, but the moment you get 360* turret coverage lerks can't do anything anymore.

So basically lategame marines are very OP if turretfarming, where as early game aliens are OP with onos rush strat.

matso · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Mar 31 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The lerk bilebomb isn't that good it takes like over a minute to kill a powernode. (to trolls: i don't know EXACTLY how long it takes, but in this time i killed a powernode with bilebomb, i eat a sandvich and drink a glass of water...yes it takes that long!)</div>

The lerk regains enough energy to drop a bomb every 3.5 sec, and each bomb does 320 damage over 4 seconds, so you are looking at about 100 dps. The powernode takes about 4000 damage, so about 40 seconds, minus about 5 seconds for the first two three bombs that can be dropped in 3 seconds.

But it sure feels a lot longer ...

In some rooms (like warehouse), enough lerks working in shifts can take down the marine CC, because the CC can't be welded when the CC is taking damage. OTOH, in many other hive rooms (say, datacore), the lerk can't really expect to survive a solo bombing run.

Xarius · March 2012

They should revert onos smash damage to 200, fix 1-hive onos properly and cut the height at which a tower can actually target something (currently it feels like they cover a 90 degree angle in height as well. Problems solved.

Corpsey · March 2012

Well imo I would prefer gorge bilebomb.. not sure why it was changed, the lerks role was finally getting better.. instead of lerk bilebomb should he not have his gas clouds back? Well I haven't played enough 201/202 yet anyways tbh.

Imbalanxd · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 31 2012, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Actually, from experience I can tell turret spam is VERY effective currently, there is absolutely NO WAY aliens can win if the marines are turtling and turret spamming. I just had a game where aliens held the entire map on mineshaft but couldn't win the game because there were too many turrets at our spawn. The issue really is that aliens don't have a siege weapon like marines do, whips are supposed to fill that role but turrets and ARCs can just rip them to shreds. Even 3 - 4 onos will be stopped dead in their tracks by a marine team supported by a turret farm.

Of course when the situation that I just described occurs, you've technically lost anyway, you just haven't been annihilated. However I have also had games as a comm on tram where I just held Shipping + Repair room and effectively turtled my way to victory. (Aliens had 3 hives and the rest of the map, we had shipping, obs (off and on), logistics and repair room.

Lerks can't do anything against turret farms because turrets cover the air as well, if there's only a few of them you CAN deal some good damage, but the moment you get 360* turret coverage lerks can't do anything anymore.

So basically lategame marines are very OP if turretfarming, where as early game aliens are OP with onos rush strat.</div>

The biggest problem I see with this is not so much the turrets, but the map layout. Trying to take a marine base in operations that has been covered in turrets is near impossible. Same with trying to clear marines out of data core when they have lots of turrets. Marine base in sub access on the other hand, no number of turrets will save them from the onos. The maps are just plain imbalanced in certain respects at the moment, which is quite worrying. You can address numbers which are a bit off, but if the playing field itself isn't even, thats a lot harder.

For example, marines holed up in cave hive would be a near impossible to clear out. Marines <b>attacking</b> cave hive is one of the easiest hive kills in the game.

Gorge_Lucas · March 2012

Giving the Gorge his Bile Bomb back would solve the problem instantly.

Gorge + Bile Bomb + Onos = Dead Turret Farm = Game Balance = Happy Players = Happy Players who tell their friends about NS2 = Friends of Happy Players buying the game = More Players = w00hoo!

Tinker · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Mar 31 2012, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Words</div>

The problem I see here is that you wasted 1 minute on a low priority target instead of just killing the PG and calling for backup with the rest. Power Nodes build in ~5 seconds with 1 marine and cost nothing. They are situational at best.

Omega_K2 · April 2012

Okay, some screens to point out again what I mean, it's the prime example which everyone should have experienced:

<a href="http://omegak2.net/screenshots/ns2/2012-04-01_00002.jpg" target="_blank">http://omegak2.net/screenshots/ns2/2012-04-01_00002.jpg</a>
<a href="http://omegak2.net/screenshots/ns2/2012-04-01_00003.jpg" target="_blank">http://omegak2.net/screenshots/ns2/2012-04-01_00003.jpg</a>

I joined when the game was in that state (min 30 or so), there were GOOD pushes from aliens, 2 Onos, 2 gorges, 2 lerks and fade pushing in, to no avoid. I admit, they won that game - why? - because everyone but 2 people crashed at some point. Still, it provides again that aliens have no way to break defenses if marine team fortifies them.

There were whips rushes, cyst spams and drifters flares and everything you can possibly think of - to no avail. Alienes just need some <b>ENDGAME</b> base breakign thing, and I don't think the solution is a nerf to the turrets ( they are fine technically).
For example, the gorge bile bomb was a nice solution :P

elodea · April 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soap @ Apr 1 2012, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Lerk bilebomb can rip apart bases far too quickly as it is. Not to mention they can gas all of the IPs, melting most of the marine's health bars. You obviously haven't seen more than one lerk attack a marine base.</div>

respectfully disagree :) Welders, shotguns, sentry turrets and jetpacks would like to say hi. You obviously havn't lerked against marines who aim ehe. Not that lerk bilebomb is especially bad at taking down buildings, but its not effective enough as a siege breaker given its functional limit of short range and fragile lifeform.

Yesterday i played a game where aliens failed time and time again to finish the game with mass onos, <b>mass lerk</b> (4+), and any combination of lifeforms from the 10-60 minute mark. They were co-ordinated but unable to finish against a marine team that could aim and also co-ordinate. The game only finished when marines tried to push a hive with ninja phasegates and were punished with a counter rush.

Gorge is a combat engineer right?
<i>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_engineer</i>
"A combat engineer, also called pioneer or sapper in many armies, is a soldier who performs a variety of construction and <u>demolition</u> tasks under combat conditions."
<b>Demolition</b>
<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><b>Demolition</b></span>
<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Demolition</b></span>

Gorge bilebomb pleasess!.

IronHorse · April 2012

This is all merely an issue of marines having all their tech located in the place of their last stand. same will happen to aliens if their abilities also remain in one place.
When exosuits come it will really show off this issue. Better siege abilities will help, but the first sentence in this reply is really the key.

giving gorge back the bile bomb while keeping the same dmg, and cooldowns, wouldn't suddenly remove this tough to break last stands situation.
try to remember if any one siege ability meant to "end it soon" would be OP on any typical item like an extractor.

krakadict · April 2012

this onos nerf IMO was needed, i've seen games where marines had 80% of the map but still lost because one onos was too powerful.

no unit should have that much of a effect on the battlefield.

Omega_K2 · April 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krakadict @ Apr 1 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>this onos nerf IMO was needed, i've seen games where marines had 80% of the map but still lost because one onos was too powerful.

no unit should have that much of a effect on the battlefield.</div>

This is true, but now aliens are lacking any endgame siege option. Mineshaft is a prime example how it oculd end, but there are other situations aswell. I've seen marines win on tram and summit with 2 bases slowly turtling the entire map to victory and instaraping alien baseses with ARCs whereas aliens could not push into rine bases.

aliens need some way to kill buildings again

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